Love your neighborhood Jew as yourself

[Nakosis]

How is it that these days, when so many Christians are Israel's best ally, that we still have Christians openly insulting Jews? And to twist the knife, the Bible gets used as the excuse!

Robin, perhaps this seems like some little nothing to you, but it gets under my skin. Of all the things I could have chosen, I picked this issue as one of the three that I wished to discuss with you, this idea that you have that it is okay to constantly refer to the Jews as "stubborn," or as some Christians say it, "stiff necked."

Let me tell you a little story. Jim was sitting with his wife and friends at a local bar. His wife mentioned going for dinner at her sisters again and he had had one too many. "Why do you keep bringing that up? I'm telling you for the hundredth time we ain't going. I swear to God you are more stubborn than a mule. Now shut up about it." It was a bit awkward, but the conversation shifted. Ten minutes later, JIm's friend was trying to get Jim's wife to drive them to the beach the next day, but she stuck to her guns and turned him down. "Wow, you really are a stubborn mule!" said Jim's friend. Jim slammed down his mug and said, "What did you just call my wife?" "Hey, man. You yourself was just sayin' she was a stubborn mule." Jim looked at his friend with daggers in his eyes. "Look, FRIEND. She's my WIFE. We have an intimate like relationship. She knows I love her. Who the bleep are YOU that you think you can say something like that to MY wife?"

It's not the best story, but it does the trick. Through the Tanakh, God gives terms of endearment for Israel. Israel is his Bride. Israel is his firstborn son. All these things speak to the intimate relationship we have with the Lord. I'm sorry, but we don't have an intimate relationship with Christians. What we have with Christians is a 2000 year long history of persecution and pogroms, and, ultimately, the Holocaust. For a Christian to call us stubborn, it has a whole different context. It is seen as simply a continuation of that 2000 year history.

You asked, if it's the truth, why can't I say it? Because it is not always moral to say the truth, in little ways and big ways. If your wife asks you if she looks fat, and she does, you don't say yes. You tell her she looks sweet, or some other truth that indirectly gets around answering the question. I can think of a particular religious group some of whose adherents tend to be triumphalist, presumptive, and prideful, but I don't come into the forum and talk about that group that way. First , it's not rational to blame an entire group for some of it's members. But also---IT'S JUST RUDE. IT'S MEAN to publicly insult people.

And it doesn't love my neighbor as myself. Do I want others talking about my flaws? No. So I mustn't be petty and talk that way about them. As Rabbi Hillel said, What is hateful to you, don't do to others. Or, if you wish, you could take Jesus' hint and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

You can't expect other people to change. Usually at least not for your sake.

Me, I don't give a crap about your religion, nationality, skin tone. That's all irrelevant, but I don't talk about other people's wives. that's just rude. Other folks however see nothing wrong with it.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's bizarre how Christians always get blamed.

On one hand you say that not all Jews should be blamed for the actions of a few (true) but then you also say that to Jews; Christians are nothing but pogroms, persecutions etc.

What about Jews insulting Christians their "best ally"?

And then you blame Christians for the holocaust! Look who rescued the Jews from the holocaust? American, British and Russians. America largely a Christian nation and so is Britain. So much for Christians causing the holocaust.

And one of Hitler's main excuses for the holocaust was obviously Darwinian evolution. A distinctly un-Christian idea. He did play on "Christianity" as an added excuse to persecute Jews but then that's what sociopaths do. They use any advantage.

It was not Darwinian Evolution that Hitler appealed to. It was a non-scientific social? evolution that may have contributed to the Holocaust. The consideration that the science of Evolution i 'partly' responsible i slander against science. Science has been misused throughout history, and this is nothing new.

Not bizarre at all! Your objection to Christians being blamed does not reflect the history of the relationship between Christians and Jews in the history of Europe. First, there i a long history of persecution of Jews in both Eastern and Western Europe. Martin Luther's: On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia
On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther.

Third, Hitler had widespread support not only in Germany, but throughout Europe for his program for the ethnic cleansing of the Jews, Gypsies and others. Fourth, the passion plays depicting Jews as "Christ killers," were common throughout Europe and incited anti-Jewish violence.

Like some others on this cite and many throughout the world need not try and rewrite history and take responsibility for the Holocaust, and the WHOLE history of the persecution and ethnic cleansing of the Jews and others.

 

[shunyadragon]

That's a good point that they believed in a Jewish conspiracy. But yes their ideas of racial supremacy were based (at least partly) off of the concept of evolution.

Partly the misuse of the science of evolution, but actually not the primary reason. You missed the fact of the 'misuse of science,' which happens throughout history.

 

[Jumi]

That's a good point that they believed in a Jewish conspiracy. But yes their ideas of racial supremacy were based (at least partly) off of the concept of evolution.

They also thought Jews killed Jesus, so loosely interpreted you could look for scapegoats anywhere.

If you read Darwin and find anything like that in his books, let me know. Or in ToE for that matter. The racial supremacy of Jews and Germans (they thought only Jews could compete with Germans) that they believed was complete bunk even at the time and a product of European empire's thinking. Not science, but silly ideas. And Nazis seemed to conveniently change their ideas on who was superior.

 

[74x12]

Like some others on this cite and many throughout the world need not try and rewrite history and take responsibility for the Holocaust, and the WHOLE history of the persecution and ethnic cleansing of the Jews and others.

Can you clarify this. Are you saying Christians should take responsibility for the holocaust or not?

Partly the misuse of the science of evolution, but actually not the primary reason. You missed the fact of the 'misuse of science,' which happens throughout history.

Right just as misuse of the Bible happens.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You mentioned the holocaust, not surprisingly. Though I'm homosexual and some of my family are Jehovah's Witnesses and my beliefs are very similar, I know that historically speaking homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned along with the Jews in German concentration camps. Not one homosexual, not one Jehovah's Witness, not one Jew was killed in the gas chambers of the German concentration camps.

And from where do you get this information?
You haven't seen the videos?
I have. This is just one documented file:

 

[InChrist]

Yes, that did happen, and I certainly am not excusing that in any way, but let me remind you that it also happened with the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe and the Lutheran Church in Germany and several other countries in Europe. As a matter of fact, the Lutheran reaction in Germany was actually worse than the Catholic one, and Hitler very much catered to the former. The NAZI Nuremberg Laws were taken from Luther's ant-Jewish regulations.

At least the Catholic Church on numerous occasions has officially apologized, organized overseers to try and make sure it doesn't happen again, and have conduced numerous joint Jewish/Catholic workshops and even services. My understanding is that most other Christian groups have not done that. Has yours?

I am aware that there are many Catholic individuals who have nothing to do with the persecution of Jews. I also appreciate the attempt to make amends. My point is simply that any group/organization which may claim to be Christian (Catholic or otherwise), yet ties their religion with politics, misinterpreting scripture for their own power is in a place to persecute, as the Catholic church did the Jews.
I don't know about other groups of Christians. Some groups of Christians today were not even in existence during times of Jewish persecution and many of your average Christians through history who have adhered to the scriptures would never have taken part in persecuting the Jews, understanding they hold an important place in God's heart and plan.

 

[shunyadragon]

Can you clarify this. Are you saying Christians should take responsibility for the holocaust or not?

Christians should take considerable responsibility for the Holocaust, because of the history which I cited.

Right just as misuse of the Bible happens.

Careful, than the majority of the Christians of Europe misused the Bible.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am aware that there are many Catholic individuals who have nothing to do with the persecution of Jews. I also appreciate the to make amends. My point is simply that any group/organization which may claim to be Christian (Catholic or otherwise), yet ties their religion with politics, misinterpreting scripture for their own power is in a place to persecute, as the Catholic church did the Jews.
I don't know about other groups of Christians. Some groups of Christians today were not even in existence during times of Jewish persecution and many of your average Christians through history who have adhered to the scriptures would never have taken part in persecuting the Jews, understanding they hold an important place in God's heart and plan.

Would never?!?!?!? Many Individuals?!?!?! So What?!?!?! Problem here, the majority of Christians of Europe took part, tolerated or turned their backs on the reality of the persecution, and ethnic cleansing throughout the history of Europe..

 

[InChrist]

Would never?!?!?!? Problem here, the majority of Christians of Europe took part, tolerated or turned their backs on the reality of the persecution, and ethnic cleansing.

Yes, you are right, but the majority of "Christians" were Catholics or Lutherans with churches tied into the politics. Nevertheless, there were many Christians who stood against Hitler, worked for the resistance, or helped the Jews hide and escape.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, you are right, but the majority of "Christians" were Catholics or Lutherans with churches tied into the politics. Nevertheless, there were many Christians who stood against Hitler, worked for the resistance, or helped the Jews hide and escape.

Disagree, there were not that 'many.' Not all the resistance to Hitler was the reason many stood against Hitler. The historical persecution of Jews in history also included the Orthodox Churches.

 

[74x12]

Christians should take considerable responsibility for the Holocaust, because of the history which I cited.

I'm American. Americans largely at least nominal Christians; fought the Nazis. My grand father served in the war. My great uncle died in the war.

It's insulting that anyone thinks I'm responsible for the holocaust. In fact I'm part Jewish anyway.

Careful, than the majority of the Christians of Europe misused the Bible.

So they did. And it's no surprise.

Didn't Jesus say "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

And Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.

It's easy for people to say they follow the scriptures. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Very few Jews read the Gospels, but those who do are struck by how Jewish they are. When Jesus says to love God and your neighbor as yourself, he is not only quoting the Torah, but he is picking out the same two laws that the Rabbis say are foundational. It is amazing to me that a man that was obviously an observant Jew like Jesus became an inspiration to the whole world.

It would be a whole awful lot easier for me to figure out if Christians hadn't tried to persecute and kill us for 2000 years. Somehow that just messes up the "God sent Jesus to the Gentiles" kind of theory.

But enough griping about Christians. They've been a lot better since the Holocaust. At least the ones in the West. Here's looking forward to a brighter future.

Wrongs have happened in the past but I did not do them and pledge not to be part of them in the future. That is the best I can do.

 

[InChrist]

Disagree, there were not that 'many.' Not all the resistance to Hitler was the reason many stood against Hitler. The historical persecution of Jews in history also included the Orthodox Churches.

And like I have already pointed out, one big reason for that persecution from those churches is because of their false doctrine of Replacement theology.

 

[Skwim]

How is it that these days, when so many Christians are Israel's best ally, that we still have Christians openly insulting Jews? And to twist the knife, the Bible gets used as the excuse!

Robin, perhaps this seems like some little nothing to you, but it gets under my skin. Of all the things I could have chosen, I picked this issue as one of the three that I wished to discuss with you, this idea that you have that it is okay to constantly refer to the Jews as "stubborn," or as some Christians say it, "stiff necked."

Let me tell you a little story. Jim was sitting with his wife and friends at a local bar. His wife mentioned going for dinner at her sisters again and he had had one too many. "Why do you keep bringing that up? I'm telling you for the hundredth time we ain't going. I swear to God you are more stubborn than a mule. Now shut up about it." It was a bit awkward, but the conversation shifted. Ten minutes later, JIm's friend was trying to get Jim's wife to drive them to the beach the next day, but she stuck to her guns and turned him down. "Wow, you really are a stubborn mule!" said Jim's friend. Jim slammed down his mug and said, "What did you just call my wife?" "Hey, man. You yourself was just sayin' she was a stubborn mule." Jim looked at his friend with daggers in his eyes. "Look, FRIEND. She's my WIFE. We have an intimate like relationship. She knows I love her. Who the bleep are YOU that you think you can say something like that to MY wife?"

It's not the best story, but it does the trick. Through the Tanakh, God gives terms of endearment for Israel. Israel is his Bride. Israel is his firstborn son. All these things speak to the intimate relationship we have with the Lord. I'm sorry, but we don't have an intimate relationship with Christians. What we have with Christians is a 2000 year long history of persecution and pogroms, and, ultimately, the Holocaust. For a Christian to call us stubborn, it has a whole different context. It is seen as simply a continuation of that 2000 year history.

You asked, if it's the truth, why can't I say it? Because it is not always moral to say the truth, in little ways and big ways. If your wife asks you if she looks fat, and she does, you don't say yes. You tell her she looks sweet, or some other truth that indirectly gets around answering the question. I can think of a particular religious group some of whose adherents tend to be triumphalist, presumptive, and prideful, but I don't come into the forum and talk about that group that way. First , it's not rational to blame an entire group for some of it's members. But also---IT'S JUST RUDE. IT'S MEAN to publicly insult people.

And it doesn't love my neighbor as myself. Do I want others talking about my flaws? No. So I mustn't be petty and talk that way about them. As Rabbi Hillel said, What is hateful to you, don't do to others. Or, if you wish, you could take Jesus' hint and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

If you're addressing 1robin, he's left the building and apparently won't be back. See HERE

 

[Earthling]

Alright, hold on.
Are you saying that around 97,000 people died in the Holocaust overall, or are you saying that around 97,000 of a specific minority died in the Holocaust?

I'm saying that it was about 97,000 that died in each of the camps, German, American and British. I'm not sure about Japanese, so I didn't say. Most of the deaths were attributed to starvation and disease in the last few weeks of the war since all means of shipment of supplies, i.e. roads, railroads, airplane runways, were destroyed.

 

[Audie]

How is it that these days, when so many Christians are Israel's best ally, that we still have Christians openly insulting Jews? And to twist the knife, the Bible gets used as the excuse!

Robin, perhaps this seems like some little nothing to you, but it gets under my skin. Of all the things I could have chosen, I picked this issue as one of the three that I wished to discuss with you, this idea that you have that it is okay to constantly refer to the Jews as "stubborn," or as some Christians say it, "stiff necked."

Let me tell you a little story. Jim was sitting with his wife and friends at a local bar. His wife mentioned going for dinner at her sisters again and he had had one too many. "Why do you keep bringing that up? I'm telling you for the hundredth time we ain't going. I swear to God you are more stubborn than a mule. Now shut up about it." It was a bit awkward, but the conversation shifted. Ten minutes later, JIm's friend was trying to get Jim's wife to drive them to the beach the next day, but she stuck to her guns and turned him down. "Wow, you really are a stubborn mule!" said Jim's friend. Jim slammed down his mug and said, "What did you just call my wife?" "Hey, man. You yourself was just sayin' she was a stubborn mule." Jim looked at his friend with daggers in his eyes. "Look, FRIEND. She's my WIFE. We have an intimate like relationship. She knows I love her. Who the bleep are YOU that you think you can say something like that to MY wife?"

It's not the best story, but it does the trick. Through the Tanakh, God gives terms of endearment for Israel. Israel is his Bride. Israel is his firstborn son. All these things speak to the intimate relationship we have with the Lord. I'm sorry, but we don't have an intimate relationship with Christians. What we have with Christians is a 2000 year long history of persecution and pogroms, and, ultimately, the Holocaust. For a Christian to call us stubborn, it has a whole different context. It is seen as simply a continuation of that 2000 year history.

You asked, if it's the truth, why can't I say it? Because it is not always moral to say the truth, in little ways and big ways. If your wife asks you if she looks fat, and she does, you don't say yes. You tell her she looks sweet, or some other truth that indirectly gets around answering the question. I can think of a particular religious group some of whose adherents tend to be triumphalist, presumptive, and prideful, but I don't come into the forum and talk about that group that way. First , it's not rational to blame an entire group for some of it's members. But also---IT'S JUST RUDE. IT'S MEAN to publicly insult people.

And it doesn't love my neighbor as myself. Do I want others talking about my flaws? No. So I mustn't be petty and talk that way about them. As Rabbi Hillel said, What is hateful to you, don't do to others. Or, if you wish, you could take Jesus' hint and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

FWIW, I have never had the faintest idea what a person
could possibly think of as a reason to object to Jews.
It is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Audie]

That's a good point that they believed in a Jewish conspiracy. But yes their ideas of racial supremacy were based (at least partly) off of the concept of evolution.

Anyone who gets the idea that the
"concept of evolution" in any way
supports "racial superiority" is ignorant
or stupid, or both.

 

[74x12]

Anyone who gets the idea that the
"concept of evolution" in any way
supports "racial superiority" is ignorant
or stupid, or both.

As are many people.

 

[Audie]

Wrong. They believe a Jewish conspiracy and thought some of Darwin's theory to be decadent. Their ideas of racial purity were completely hogwash and against "Darwinism" or evolution for that matter.

If someone did think that "Darwinism" supported their
ideas of racial purity, it was not because they understood
the theory of evolution.

Others have used the bible to justify genocide and slavery.
They kind of missed Jesus' simple message.