Love your neighborhood Jew as yourself

[Earthling]

I was in Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1991 on a three-week study and was with six survivors, including a close friend of mine. I never saw those signs, but it's entirely possible that they, assuming they actually exist and are not a fabrication, may reflect earlier estimates as I explained in my last post.

Did you know that there is an expanded tour of Auschwitz that is only available on request, which includes the swimming pool the prisoners enjoyed, the theater where they put on plays, concerts and films? They had their own money, they had a post office.

Prisoner football team.

Jewish Money circulated by the Germans in Auschwitz.

 

[Earthling]

What???

And I've run across people like you many times before with such an agenda.

Agenda? My only agenda is the pursuit of truth. The holocaust as we know it is a lie.

 

[Earthling]

Mostly because it seems that the initial 4 million number wasn't about the Jewish deaths. This is all old stuff. Have fun.

Holocaust Denial | My Jewish Learning

"In fact, the actual numbers were inflated, but not by Jewish historians trying to guilt the world into compensation. The Soviets overstated the number of non-Jewish victims for propaganda purposes. A noted historian, Raul Hillberg, estimated just over a million deaths at Auschwitz. He did that in 1950, and estimates by historians such as him have been always been the scholarly basis for determining the number of victims."

Here is some info about the number 6 million. Of course, the source is from Israel, so who trusts "them"?

I sure as hell don't. And I don't read links. I don't have time. I can do a search.

 

[rosends]

I sure as hell don't. And I don't read links. I don't have time. I can do a search.

No time for a link but you can do a search and wade through the results? The lady doth protest too much methinks. A search will yield links.

 

[Earthling]

No time for a link but you can do a search and wade through the results? The lady doth protest too much methinks. A search will yield links.

And for every link you give me that I won't read I could give you two that you don't read. See how that works? This is a discussion / debate forum. Giving a link for an answer is lazy and irresponsible unless you paste the relevant portion in the post.

 

[rosends]

And for every link you give me that I won't read I could give you two that you don't read. See how that works? This is a discussion / debate forum. Giving a link for an answer is lazy and irresponsible unless you paste the relevant portion in the post.

I did quote the first article. How did you miss that? You certainly haven't addressed it.

For the second one, I'll provide the info so you aren't put out by having to click on it, and you can choose not to read it here instead of not reading it elsewhere:

"The number seems to have first been mentioned by Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, an Austrian-born official in the Third Reich and a trained historian who served in a number of senior positions in the SS.

In November 1945, Hoettl testified for the prosecution in the Nuremberg trials of accused Nazi war criminals. Later, in the 1961 trial in Israel of Adolf Eichmann, he also submitted to a lengthy series of questions from the prosecution, speaking under oath from a courtroom in Austria.

On both occasions, he described a conversation he had had with Eichmann, the SS official who had principal responsibility for the logistics of the Jewish genocide, in Budapest in August 1944. In the 1961 testimony, Hoettl recalled how “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then -- 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.”

...

"On its website, Yad Vashem, Israel’s principal Holocaust research center, quotes the Eichmann reference, and then says that both early and more recent estimates by a variety of different scholars have fallen between five and six million.

Such estimates are arrived at by comparing pre-war census data with population estimates made after World War II. The Germans, though they treated their plan for annihilation of the Jews as a state secret of the highest order, also kept scrupulous records of deportations and gassings, which also serve as a vital source of data.

One of the earliest researchers, Raul Hilberg, came up with a figure of 5.1 million in his 1961 classic “The Destruction of the European Jews.” In the third edition, from 1985, he provides a lengthy appendix explaining how he calculated the estimate.

Lucy Dawidowicz, in her “The War Against the Jews” (1975), used prewar birth and death records to come up with a more precise figure of 5,933,900. And one of the more authoritative German scholars of the subject, Wolfgang Benz, offered a range of 5.3 to 6.2 million. Each used his or her own method to arrive at the totals."

-------------------

Thank you for the opportunity to publicize the historical basis and sources for the numbers.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What brighter future do Jewish people look forward to today? Israel is hardly enjoying peace is it? What do you expect the future to hold for you all?

1. As I said, we have had much better relations with Christians (in the west) since the holocaust. We are in regular dialogue with the Catholic church, which has made significant changes to its views of Jews and Judaism, and Evangelicals are perhaps Israel's greatest allies.

2. We are back in our homeland. The passive culture that was the bulwark of how Jews related to the world around them died in the holocaust, a complete failure. Jews today will fight for ourselves, as we have shown many times. Now when anti-Semitism rises again in Europe as it has, Jews have somewhere to flee to, and no one will ever take Eretz Israel from us again.

3. Relations with Arab states (with the exception of Iran) have never been better. Muslim states have realized they profit from trade and military alliances against Iran and Isis. On the Palestinian front, the Arab world has lost patience with the Palestinians and their refusal to acknowledge the Jewish nations right to exist and make peace. Indeed the Saudis have instructed them to forget East Jerusalem, and simply make Ramallah their capital, but MAKE PEACE. With the exception of Iran, there is no future threat of any Yom Kippur wars.

Are thing perfect? Of course not. They never are. The rise in anti-Semitism is a concern -- Europe is back up to 1939 levels in many places and Jews are leaving. But overall things look good, where Israel can get along in the Middle East, and where Jews and Christians continue in a new age of amity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The whole the commandments hinge on these two simple principles.

As a Christian, who loves Israel and the Jewish people, I ask forgiveness for what others have done in the name of the Christ. A violation of love for which he stands for and an affront to what he came for and did.

Your a good one, Ken.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think that some Christians, especially in the evangelical community, are fans of israel because they act under the principle that the enemy of my enemy (Islam) is my friend.

However, other than that, Christians are not friends of Jews. Cannot be. They share the same God, they were the closest to what happened 2000 years ago, and yet they did not buy that Jesus myth. That is thorn in their side.

Just take a look at what Luther wrote about the Jews and at the criminal history of Christianity (KH Deschner). Christianity made Hitler look like a beginner when it comes to jewish persecution.

Ciao

- viole

To be perfectly honest, I rarely run into Christian anti-Semites. They are tucked away in groups that reject the post-holocaust reforms. I usually run into anti-Semites among the far left and Muslims from the Middle East (IOW American born Muslims tend to reject anti-Semetism).

Sure you have absolutely RABID Christian anti-Semites in history such as Chrysostom and Luther. But Christians today don't follow that pattern.

Christians today tend to believe that Jews remain God's chosen people. Evangelicals in particular I would call semitophiles, because they tend to idealize us, and idealize Israel, seeing the People of Israel as playing a prominent role in their end times prophecy. Of course the end result of all of that means we are all of us Jews supposed to come to Jesus LOL. But you know what, in the end I don't care why someone is being nice to me instead of killing me. I'm just glad he's not killing me. Jews are going to have Jewish kavanah (heart intention) and Christians are going to have Christian kavanah. So what. It's what people do that matters.

 

[Earthling]

Thank you for the opportunity to publicize the historical basis and sources for the numbers.

Yes, the information you posted is pasted all over the Internet, word for word. You can believe the various figures arrived at which usually fall somewhere in the number of 5 + million but they aren't very accurate if you ask me. I would think it was more along the lines of 7 + million due to the uncertainty of the Russian Jews killed without the meticulous accounting the Germans exercised.

Not the 6 million that had been repeated countless times in print since the late 1800s. That number is nonsensical. Very unfortunate, but relatively low as far as numbers go. 60 million people. 20 million Chinese. 16 million Russians.

No one, however, was killed in gas chambers in Nazi concentration camps, and nowhere near 6 million Jews died in those camps. Realistically it was more like 600,000 people. Catholics, Blacks, Jehovah's Witnesses, Homosexuals, Jews and others. That is specifically in the camps. Not in the war in general.

 

[Earthling]

Yes, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The whole the commandments hinge on these two simple principles.

As a Christian, who loves Israel and the Jewish people, I ask forgiveness for what others have done in the name of the Christ. A violation of love for which he stands for and an affront to what he came for and did.

But what about all the Christians murdered by Jews. You forget those? Millions of Jews have been killed by Christians over the centuries. And millions of Christians have been killed by Jews. Don't act as if there is only one side of the story.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's bizarre how Christians always get blamed.

On one hand you say that not all Jews should be blamed for the actions of a few (true) but then you also say that to Jews; Christians are nothing but pogroms, persecutions etc.

What about Jews insulting Christians their "best ally"?

And then you blame Christians for the holocaust! Look who rescued the Jews from the holocaust? American, British and Russians. America largely a Christian nation and so is Britain. So much for Christians causing the holocaust.

And one of Hitler's main excuses for the holocaust was obviously Darwinian evolution. A distinctly un-Christian idea. He did play on "Christianity" as an added excuse to persecute Jews but then that's what sociopaths do. They use any advantage.

I didn't say that Christians were "only" pogroms and persecutions. I said that Christians had a 2000 year long history of perseution and pogroms with the Jews. Do you think this is not accurate?

Jews have gone out of our way to especially honor those Gentiles (whether they were Christians or not) who put their own lives in danger to saved Jews during the Holocaust. These brave souls are forever remembered at Yad Vashem.

But these Rightous were the exceptions, including among Christians.

I'm not going to say that Hitler practiced Christianity. And of course the SS were pagan, deeply involved in an Arian cult. But the masses of Nazis, and the general populations that cooperated with them were Lutheran, Catholic, and other Christian denominations. Hitler's agenda was adopted because Europe was ALREADY a bunch of Christian anti-Semites. Hitler simply adopted Luther's "Against the Jews" as the framework for his agenda and propaganda. In many places, the Christian communities attacked their local Jews well ahead of being asked to by their Nazi occupiers. The pre-existing anti-Semitism had been festering there all along, looking for an excuse to surface. It was Christians that broke the glass of the shops on Krystalnacht, Christians that beat up the Jews, and Christians that loaded them onto the trains to the camps. At the camps, it was Christians who were there participating in every level of atrocity.

You are reminding me that I should not generalize from too small a sample. I would like to remind you of that here. It is the Christians who hid Jews which are too small an example, and Christians who were complicit who were the norm.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

FWIW, I have never had the faintest idea what a person
could possibly think of as a reason to object to Jews.
It is beyond ridiculous.

Thank you , Audie. We're just human being like everyone else. There good ones and bad ones and everything in between, just like with everyone else.

 

[74x12]

I didn't say that Christians were "only" pogroms and persecutions. I said that Christians had a 2000 year long history of perseution and pogroms with the Jews. Do you think this is not accurate?

Jews have gone out of our way to especially honor those Gentiles (whether they were Christians or not) who put their own lives in danger to saved Jews during the Holocaust. These brave souls are forever remembered at Yad Vashem.

But these Rightous were the exceptions, including among Christians.

I'm not going to say that Hitler practiced Christianity. And of course the SS were pagan, deeply involved in an Arian cult. But the masses of Nazis, and the general populations that cooperated with them were Lutheran, Catholic, and other Christian denominations. Hitler's agenda was adopted because Europe was ALREADY a bunch of Christian anti-Semites. Hitler simply adopted Luther's "Against the Jews" as the framework for his agenda and propaganda. In many places, the Christian communities attacked their local Jews well ahead of being asked to by their Nazi occupiers. The pre-existing anti-Semitism had been festering there all along, looking for an excuse to surface. It was Christians that broke the glass of the shops on Krystalnacht, Christians that beat up the Jews, and Christians that loaded them onto the trains to the camps. At the camps, it was Christians who were there participating in every level of atrocity.

You are reminding me that I should not generalize from too small a sample. I would like to remind you of that here. It is the Christians who hid Jews which are too small an example, and Christians who were complicit who were the norm.

So called Christians yes. However the masses are always ignorant and led astray by their manipulators posing as benefactors. It's human nature not Christian nature or Jewish nature. Just human nature.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that on one hand you condemn all Christians and on the other hand say no one should condemn all Jews. That's my main point here. What do you say to that?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

fyi, israel wasn't a jew

judaism borrowed from the egyptian, the chaldean, the hindu, the babylonian.

Israel wasn't a Jew? Sir, Abraham is the Father of the Jewish People. Another name for the Jews is the Children of Israel. Why? Because we are the descendants of Israel/Jacob.

It is Jews who decide what makes a person a Jew. No offense, sir, but you are not qualified to have an opinion in this matter.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are complaining to the wrong person. You should complain to whoever wrote the Torah. That would be Yhvah, so be careful when you question His judgement.

You really should read a post much more carefully before you shoot off an answer like this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Unfortunately, you can't compare most professed Christian organizations to Jesus!

Jesus never encouraged his followers to hurt others...in fact he told his followers to love even their enemy.

So if his supposed followers willfully hurt others, it can't be blamed on Jesus.

I think Jesus is rolling over in his grave from some of the things that have been done in his name.

 

[74x12]

I think Jesus is rolling over in his grave from some of the things that have been done in his name.

Jesus isn't in a grave. However, I agree that Jesus will bring those to judgment who do great evil in His name. One thing people forget is Jesus is not just a Savior but the Judge of the living and the dead.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So called Christians yes. However the masses are always ignorant and led astray by their manipulators posing as benefactors. It's human nature not Christian nature or Jewish nature. Just human nature.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that on one hand you condemn all Christians and on the other hand say no one should condemn all Jews. That's my main point here. What do you say to that?

I never said to condemn all Christians. If you continue to misrepresent what I said, I will simply ignore you.

What I did say was that Christians have a 2000 year log history of persecuting and killing Jews. That's a historical fact. Do you dispute this?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus isn't in a grave. However, I agree that Jesus will bring those to judgment who do great evil in His name. One thing people forget is Jesus is not just a Savior but the Judge of the living and the dead.

Well, that's something Christians have never been able to convince me of, largely because Jesus simply never did the things the Messiah was supposed to have done. But that's a topic for an entirely different thread, so let's leave it alone.s

It is good to know that you ad many Christians object to some of the grievous things done in the name of Jesus.