Love your neighborhood Jew as yourself

[IndigoChild5559]

The Blessed Apostle Paul, says the 'added laws' are a curse, even not a Covenant unto Israel!

Paul says, the added laws, are a curse upon Jerusalem, from another nation.

So, there is different context, here, do you not presume?

However, you can explain what Mosaic law, means to you, or such.

We have Oral Torah, which elucidates the 613 laws of the Torah. What "added" laws are you referring to?
Can you give an example?

Just so you know, I don't consider Paul's writings to be God's truth, and there are things he says that I feel perfectly free to disagree with. All the same, it might be a good idea for you to support your point by quoting the verse which contain the words "ADDED LAWS."

I don't know where it is off hand, but i know that Paul testified in a court of law that he kept EVERY Jewish law. Do you need me to look that up for you. It would take considerable time, so I don't want to do it unless you feel it bears upon this debate.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Galatians 3:20

•
The law was not given by G'd, rather it was given by "angels", through a mediator.

This verse means, a mediator, and angels, aren't G'd, giving the law.

Therefore the law isn't a Covenant, in the same way, that the Abraham Covenant, is.

If you read Exodus through Deuteronomy, you will hear repeated over and over again, AND the **LORD** SAID to Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel saying.... So yes, the Law (i.e. the covenant) was given by God, not an angel.

**When in the English text the word LORD is in all CAPS, the word in Hebrew is the yad hey and vav hey, aka the sacred name of the most high God. Not an angel.

 

[Miracle]

Being a Jew, I know a thing or two about Judaism.

Great! And being a Christian, I believe I know a thing or two about Christianity and can clarify that a Christain is not defined by what they believe but by what they DO. (Mark 3:35, John 8:3, John 13:35, John 15:8) If a self-professing Christian lives in sin they are not Christians but sinners (John 8:34, Matthew 7:23); just as a self-professing Jew who fails to abide by the guidelines of their religion is a sinner/transgressor (James 2:11, Psalms 37:38, Psalms 119:158, Isaiah 1:28, Isaiah 48:8) irrespective of whether his blood is rooted in Jacob/Abraham.

The issue with Judaism is simply that it's not just a religion but a birthright, so when talking about it in relation to Christianity, it becomes rather difficult. However, it doesn't mean that there are any special privileges when a jew lives in sin. Before God, they are sinners regardless of their lineage. They are still rebels, hypocrites, graves filled with dead men's bones, adulterers and their punishment for sin is much worse than those who are not of the Jewish lineage (Lamentations 4:6, Leviticus 26:14-39).

All of this is simply playing with words to please people. It would be better for people to call a spade a spade. If you live in sin you are a sinner; a child of the devil (1 John 3:8). If you do not live in sin, you are a child of God (1 John 3:9). And the beauty of all of this is that we are living in a time when the bridge to God has not been broken. Salvation is there for anyone who wants it. They need to be willing to DO the will of God.

Are we doing the No True Scotsman fallacy here?

I can imagine it may appear that way. Unfortunately, those who have failed to do the will of God are the ones redefining what it means to be a Christian and sadly that seems to be the consensus throughout the world. So I apologize if it appears as though I am using that True Scotsman fallacy.

The love of God is there for anyone to know. We don't have to be Christians to experience it. Having just come through Yom Kippur, I am floored by God's, love, mercy, and forgiveness.[

You are right that Jesus Christ is there for people to know. But sadly many do not know him. The name Christian is synonymous with love; Christian embodies love because Love himself lives in us. And that is why it's so easy for us (true Christians) to love while being hated and to care for those who seek our hurt. Although you may see it as a word/title just as "Jew" may be a title for you, however, for a Chrisitan, the name is so much more. In short, it is God-like. For anyone to know what love is or experience real love, they need to encounter Jesus Christ.

God bless!

 

[Earthling]

I do not believe so, because you are minimalizing the horrific human disaster of over 11,000,000 Jews and Gypsies and other undesirables.

No, I'm maximizing the overall effects of the entire war by reevaluating the propaganda of the Russian, American and British forces.

There were thousands of Jewish villages, and ghettos in the cities found empty after the war and no one returned.

So, they didn't return? Where, then did they go?

 

[oldbadger]

No. Hitler was no a Christian. But he could not have done what he did without the consent, complacency, and cooperation of European Christian steeped in anti-Semitic thinking. Denmark was the only country that fought back.

I don't think that any Churches pulled much weight in this matter, and you need to remember that the total number of victims exceeded 11 million, involving many Eastern Europeans, JWs, Masons, Blacks, Gays, Jews and others.

It's no good blaming any Churches. The people voted Hitler into power, and then he took control of power on to dictatorship.

And the World learned little from this..... there have been several genocides and mega-murders since then.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, I'm maximizing the overall effects of the entire war by reevaluating the propaganda of the Russian, American and British forces.

The reverse is the problem. It is not propaganda. The documentation is overwhelmingly conclusive.

So, they didn't return? Where, then did they go?

They are dead.

 

[Desert Snake]

If you read Exodus through Deuteronomy, you will hear repeated over and over again, AND the **LORD** SAID to Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel saying.... So yes, the Law (i.e. the covenant) was given by God, not an angel.

**When in the English text the word LORD is in all CAPS, the word in Hebrew is the yad hey and vav hey, aka the sacred name of the most high God. Not an angel.

Exodus 3:2
The Christians in the Bible, clearly believe that it was given by angels. The Apostle Paul, clearly, as I read it, believes this.
You have 'angel of the L'rd', then it goes to the Tetragrammaton, so, there is the matter of 'which is it'.
Exodus 3:2-7
as I read it, it is either 'an angel of the L'rd', going by first reference, or, even, 'the angel [Tetragrammaton, '
This is , as we note in Galatians, a difference of belief. The Apostle Paul, says that the Israelites, were given to worshipping angels, which he says, is wrong, and, you have the belief, by Christians,that the law was given by angels, [to some Priests, with Moses present, presumably. We know it 's including priests, not just Moses, so, the 'mediator', part, really factors in. Angels, Moses, Priests, that is, not direct, from G'd.

For some reason, belief in Christianity either varies, or, isn't considered important,[?] it is quite unusual, frankly.

Im with the Apostle Paul, on this. They were worshipping angels, the law was ordained by angels, given via a mediator, Moses and the priests. Hence not direct.

 

[Desert Snake]

I believe the emphasis, is the mediator, part. The priestly mediators. Galatians 3:19
I actually interpret that, as the Covenant to Abraham, was ordained by angels, but given directly by G'd. Obviously Christians don't believe that something given by an angel is "necessarily bad". That would go against Biblical belief, generally.

Note that ordained by angels, or given by angels, is different from given by G'd, in the matter of directness.

What really matters, is that the law, cannot make the Covenant to Abraham, to no effect.

Note: Galatians 3:19, standard Christianity interprets this, as far as I know, to be referring to the law. It could mean either, as I read it.
Obviously angels would ordain or support, a Covenant given by G'd.

 

[Audie]

It's bizarre how Christians always get blamed.

On one hand you say that not all Jews should be blamed for the actions of a few (true) but then you also say that to Jews; Christians are nothing but pogroms, persecutions etc.

What about Jews insulting Christians their "best ally"?

And then you blame Christians for the holocaust! Look who rescued the Jews from the holocaust? American, British and Russians. America largely a Christian nation and so is Britain. So much for Christians causing the holocaust.

And one of Hitler's main excuses for the holocaust was obviously Darwinian evolution. A distinctly un-Christian idea. He did play on "Christianity" as an added excuse to persecute Jews but then that's what sociopaths do. They use any advantage.

Bizzare and false is "Christians always get blamed".

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Great! And being a Christian, I believe I know a thing or two about Christianity and can clarify that a Christain is not defined by what they believe but by what they DO. (Mark 3:35, John 8:3, John 13:35, John 15:8) If a self-professing Christian lives in sin they are not Christians but sinners (John 8:34, Matthew 7:23); just as a self-professing Jew who fails to abide by the guidelines of their religion is a sinner/transgressor (James 2:11, Psalms 37:38, Psalms 119:158, Isaiah 1:28, Isaiah 48:8) irrespective of whether his blood is rooted in Jacob/Abraham.

When I studied Christianity, Christians were defined by their belief/faith/profession that Jesus is the Messiah, that he died for everyone's sins, and that he rose from the dead. A fuller expression of this is the Nicene Creed, although modern Evangelicals are less educated in this. However, Protestant as a whole make a big big big deal that folks are saved by faith and NOT by works -- anyone involved in comparative religion knows this about Christianity.

The issue with Judaism is simply that it's not just a religion but a birthright, so when talking about it in relation to Christianity, it becomes rather difficult. However, it doesn't mean that there are any special privileges when a jew lives in sin. Before God, they are sinners regardless of their lineage. They are still rebels, hypocrites, graves filled with dead men's bones, adulterers and their punishment for sin is much worse than those who are not of the Jewish lineage (Lamentations 4:6, Leviticus 26:14-39).

You sort of have this right. Sure there are consequences for sin. I never said otherwise. I simply said that sinning doesn't do away with one's identity as a Jew or a Christian. One simply becomes a sinful Jew or a sinful Christian who needs to repent and return to God's way. And honestly, don't most or even all of us sin in little ways? The little ways our selfishness hurts others... basically not loving our neighbor as ourselves.

All of this is simply playing with words to please people. It would be better for people to call a spade a spade. If you live in sin you are a sinner; a child of the devil (1 John 3:8). If you do not live in sin, you are a child of God (1 John 3:9). And the beauty of all of this is that we are living in a time when the bridge to God has not been broken. Salvation is there for anyone who wants it. They need to be willing to DO the will of God.

First, let me say that I DO understand what you are referring to. There are people who sin, and there are people who are given over to sin. For example, everyone lies, but some people are just LIARS. There is Pharaoh hardening his own heart, and Pharaoh so far gone that God hardens his heart. But there is no clear divide between X and Y. This is the SPECTRUM of sin. But the solution for all of it, the large and the small, is the same: repentance

So I apologize if it appears as though I am using that True Scotsman fallacy.

It has nothing to do with what the true definition of a Christian is. Even if the true definition of a Christian were someone who actually does what God says, THAT would be the No True Scotsman fallacy. If I were you, I would find a definition that is not fallacious.

For anyone to know what love is or experience real love, they need to encounter Jesus Christ.

This is blatantly false. As I'm sure many others on this forum can similarly testify, my encounter is with God, not Jesus, and God is all I need. I know what love is, real love. In my case, I had exceptional parents, and I never ever doubted that my Father loved me, even when he disciplined me. When I think of God as Avinu (our Father) I think in many ways that he is like the loving Father that I knew and loved.

God bless!

Shalom, my friend.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't think that any Churches pulled much weight in this matter, and you need to remember that the total number of victims exceeded 11 million, involving many Eastern Europeans, JWs, Masons, Blacks, Gays, Jews and others.

It's no good blaming any Churches. The people voted Hitler into power, and then he took control of power on to dictatorship.

And the World learned little from this..... there have been several genocides and mega-murders since then.

You have a superficial and somewhat inaccurate understanding of WWII and the holocaust. We blame the Churches because the people who participated in the Holocaust learned their anti-Semitism from the Churches long before Hitler came along.

Hitler was never voted into power. The Nazis only received 32% of the vote in 1932. Hitler was appointed Chancellor in 1933 when the President asked him to help form a coalition government. Then in 1934, when the President died, the Reichstag made him President.

Yes, a variety of people died in the Holocaust, but none were singled out for special attention (such as the Final Solution) like the Jews were.

I think you mean the world has NOT learned from this. The genocide in Rwanda is an example, as is the current genocide of the Rohingyans going on in Myanmar. The world sits back and does absolutely nothing.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Exodus 3:2
The Christians in the Bible, clearly believe that it was given by angels. The Apostle Paul, clearly, as I read it, believes this.
You have 'angel of the L'rd', then it goes to the Tetragrammaton, so, there is the matter of 'which is it'.
Exodus 3:2-7
as I read it, it is either 'an angel of the L'rd', going by first reference, or, even, 'the angel [Tetragrammaton, '
This is , as we note in Galatians, a difference of belief. The Apostle Paul, says that the Israelites, were given to worshipping angels, which he says, is wrong, and, you have the belief, by Christians,that the law was given by angels, [to some Priests, with Moses present, presumably. We know it 's including priests, not just Moses, so, the 'mediator', part, really factors in. Angels, Moses, Priests, that is, not direct, from G'd.

For some reason, belief in Christianity either varies, or, isn't considered important,[?] it is quite unusual, frankly.

Im with the Apostle Paul, on this. They were worshipping angels, the law was ordained by angels, given via a mediator, Moses and the priests. Hence not direct.

As a Jew, we don't believe that God manifests. In order for God to show himself, he uses an Messenger/Angel. The burning bush is one of several occasions where this is pointed out. It doesn't mean that God is an Angel, or that the Law was given by an Angel. That would be a radical misunderstanding. http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/council-nation-idolatry-angel-lord/

If my memory serves me correctly, some of Christians I've talked to think that every time the phrase "Angel of the Lord" is used, it refers to Jesus, whom they believe is God (not an angel). Others don't. I have never EVER met a Christian who believe that the Yad Hey and Vav Hey refers to an angel or anything other than God, or that an angel gave the law, nor did I encounter this idea when i formally studied Christianity. But I would rather have the Christians in here take this up with you.

 

[Desert Snake]

As a Jew, we don't believe that God manifests. In order for God to show himself, he uses an Messenger/Angel. The burning bush is one of several occasions where this is pointed out. It doesn't mean that God is an Angel, or that the Law was given by an Angel. That would be a radical misunderstanding. http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/council-nation-idolatry-angel-lord/

If my memory serves me correctly, some of Christians I've talked to think that every time the phrase "Angel of the Lord" is used, it refers to Jesus, whom they believe is God (not an angel). Others don't. I have never EVER met a Christian who believe that the Yad Hey and Vav Hey refers to an angel or anything other than God, or that an angel gave the law, nor did I encounter this idea when i formally studied Christianity. But I would rather have the Christians in here take this up with you.

The Christians in the Bible, clearly say, 'angel', when referring to this. That seems to be their common understanding. I believe, actually, that they, the Christians, didn't consider the law, to be all the same thing, or what we know of it now.

 

[Desert Snake]

Acts of the Apostles 7:35


Acts of the Apostles 7:38


•

The Christians, in the Bible, believed the law, to be given by angels, in other words.

As a Jew, we don't believe that God manifests. In order for God to show himself, he uses an Messenger/Angel. The burning bush is one of several occasions where this is pointed out. It doesn't mean that God is an Angel, or that the Law was given by an Angel. That would be a radical misunderstanding. http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/council-nation-idolatry-angel-lord/

If my memory serves me correctly, some of Christians I've talked to think that every time the phrase "Angel of the Lord" is used, it refers to Jesus, whom they believe is God (not an angel). Others don't. I have never EVER met a Christian who believe that the Yad Hey and Vav Hey refers to an angel or anything other than God, or that an angel gave the law, nor did I encounter this idea when i formally studied Christianity. But I would rather have the Christians in here take this up with you.

The Apostle Paul, notes, angels, as well. Something is getting lost in the book Canonization, etc , or, what law means, to them, or how 'angels' or angel is written, in Exodus.
Note Exodus 3:2

 

[Desert Snake]

The Biblical Christians clearly separate, Moses, from the priests, I believe, concerning this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Christians in the Bible, clearly say, 'angel', when referring to this. That seems to be their common understanding. I believe, actually, that they, the Christians, didn't consider the law, to be all the same thing, or what we know of it now.

What book, chapter, and verse of the Christian scriptures do they say an angel gave the law? I would be very curious? If true, I'd like to discuss this with Christians myself!

 

[Desert Snake]

What book, chapter, and verse of the Christian scriptures do they say an angel gave the law? I would be very curious? If true, I'd like to discuss this with Christians myself!

Acts of the Apostles 7:35
Acts of the Apostles 7:38

Are two good examples.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Acts of the Apostles 7:35


Acts of the Apostles 7:38


•

The Christians, in the Bible, believed the law, to be given by angels, in other words.



The Apostle Paul, notes, angels, as well. Something is getting lost in the book Canonization, etc , or, what law means, to them, or how 'angels' or angel is written, in Exodus.
Note Exodus 3:2

Thanks for the verses from the Christian scriptures. I'll be looking into them and asking the local Christians to clarify -- I'm genuinely curious what they'll say!

As to Exodus 3:2, that's OUR turf, and I already gave you the explanation.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Acts of the Apostles 7:35
Acts of the Apostles 7:38

Are two good examples.

Thank you! I really appreciate it. However, the angel in the burning bush has a different explanation. If you had a verse that said the law was given by angels, now that would be really something!!! If true, I'd really love to start a discussion with the Christians about that.

 

[oldbadger]

You have a superficial and somewhat inaccurate understanding of WWII and the holocaust.

Ah, the wing-beats of a butterfly, and you have a clear perspective of all.

We blame the Churches because the people who participated in the Holocaust learned their anti-Semitism from the Churches long before Hitler came along.

'We'? Look, it's one thing to dislike or hate folks, it's quite another to aid, abet and assist in crimes against them. So you're off on a hate campaign of your own, right there.
One Christian group was being murdered in those camps, you know. Now go and blame them.......

Hitler was never voted into power. The Nazis only received 32% of the vote in 1932. Hitler was appointed Chancellor in 1933 when the President asked him to help form a coalition government. Then in 1934, when the President died, the Reichstag made him President.

Many leaders in democratic countries have been elected on minority votes. Our own Winston Churchill held back Hitler after being placed into power by coalition.
Don't think you know it all, 'cos you don't.

Yes, a variety of people died in the Holocaust, but none were singled out for special attention (such as the Final Solution) like the Jews were.

And there you go, ignoring the many millions who were murdered in those camps, one group being as large or larger than the Jewish victims, because you don't think that they were singled out.
Can't have that, I'm afraid, and every time you fail to include those groups with your own it is a tragic mistake.

I think you mean the world has NOT learned from this. The genocide in Rwanda is an example, as is the current genocide of the Rohingyans going on in Myanmar. The world sits back and does absolutely nothing.

No...... I didn't mean 'NOT' learned, I wrote 'We have learned little...' because we have learned something from this, about humanity.

And I know that the World sits back and do nowt through Bosnia, Rwanda, Cambodia, Burma etc........

I notice that you din't say 'We sit back'....... you doin' anything, or did you just want to keep pointing fingers?