-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Loving God = Eternal Torture?
- Thread starter Triumphant_Loser
- Start date
IMV, it's your perspective that is wrong.
I have a nephew who was battling alcoholism. My house was open. A spare room was used. My help was there to help him through his issues.
He decided to leave and continue his lifestyle.
It would be wrong for you to accuse me of torturing my nephew. It would be wrong to accuse me of making him go through hell. It was his decision. The torture is of his own making.
There are those who believe that the body and soul will be annihilated. I'm not all knowing and I don't know all the particulars. I just keep the door open for those who don't want to be tortured anymore.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
For once I agree with @Jayhawker Soule. I need to see these quotes of Jesus promoting reincarnation/buddhism.
The sky is falling.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Well, here's the real problem:
Instead of realizing that the theology expressed in the bible spans many centuries and represents several widely disparate (and some underdeveloped) systems of thought, many people treat the bible as the immutable pinnacle of theological thought that can (and should) never change. But the bible is really a collection of photo-thought that was always meant to be expanded upon. The bible was always meant to be taken as a starting point, and in conjunction with ongoing and developing tradition and thought. The Jews have Talmud. The Christians have church councils, episcopal letters, and other extra-biblical theological teachings. Those churches who subscribe to the fallacy of sola scriptura are at a loss, because, for them, the bible is always the "finished product" that must be referred to (and deferred to). Instead of realizing that ideas about creation, sin, judgment, repentance, redemption, grace, reconciliation, ecclesiology, christology, soteriology, theodicy, parousia, etc. are fluid concepts that must change with point of view, many people and church systems treat the biblical view of these things as "absolute truth" that can never change.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jack the Ripper wasn't...
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Me too. Produce the quotes.
Skwim
Veteran Member
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I've taken lots of graduate courses in both bible and church history. Plus, there's the fact that, since Xy grew out of Judaism, and Judaism has always treated the texts that way, it only makes sense that the early Xtians did the same. What do you think the epistles are? Extension of biblical theology, just as Talmud is an extension of biblical theology.
Says the tradition of bible reading people. After all, Matthew's view of his community as the "true Israel" represents such a fluidity of concept.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Nothing is out of "Almighty God's hand" unless you make it so .. A soul who does not want to meet its maker/owner is not forced to in the next life, any more than it is now. When you make your choice , it sticks .. much like if you intentionally kill somebody, or jump off a cliff, for example..
Rubbish .. it's on our shoulders! Almighty God knows our true intentions better than we do ourselves .. He knows who is truly confused or who lies even to themselves..
May you find some peace then. It must have been an empowering realisation for you.
ThePainefulTruth
Romantic-Cynic
Yes, God and the heavenly hosts listening to or just knowing it was going on for all eternity was the reason I dismissed what has to be the visions of demented, vindictive minds. In fact, I believe, if there is an afterlife, that we judge ourselves while bathed in the undeniable (even to ourselves) light of Truth. If we can't love who we were, if the pain is too much, dissolution and oblivion is the fate by which we can release ourselves.
InChrist
Free4ever
The scriptures never say that God tortures His own children or anyone else. The word torture is not used in the scriptures, the word is torment. This torment is brought about by a person's decision to be apart from their Creator and Source of all that is life-giving and good. The love of God has provided all that is needed for anyone to be free from the suffering of sin, death, and separation. If a person refuses to be restored to the love and goodness God desires for them, then it is not God torturing them, but their own self-inflicted torment that will burden them for eternity.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
The Greek word is ba-sa-ni'zo. Variations of this word occur some 20 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It basically means to "test by the proving stone [ba'sa-nos]. So it can, by extention, mean to "examine or question by applying torture".
But the way it is used in the Scriptures helps with understanding its meaning there.
At Mt 8:6 it is used in regards to a man "laid up in the house with paralysis". It was the health condition that had him "suffering terribly."
At 2 Pe 2:8 we are told that Lot was "tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds" he saw and heard of in Sodom.
At both Mt 14:24 and Mr 6:48 this term was used to describe "struggling to row" a boat against the wind.
The Greek noun ba-sa-ni-stes' at Mt 18:34 is rendered "jailers" or "tormentors" depending on what translation you are using. While literal torment sometimes occurs in a prison setting (Acts 22:24,29), it the case of Mt 18:34 it was not used literally. (Mt 18:30)
We can see another situation where torment merely means jailed and not literal torment, by comparing the parallel accounts of Mt 8:29 and Lu 8:31. Sin
"And look! they screamed, saying: 'What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?'" - Mt 8:29
"And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss." - Lu 8:31
Since the 'lake of fire' is called the "second death". (Re 20:14) and death is likened to sleep, (Mt 9:24) the "tormented day and night forever and ever" of Re 20:10 is not literal torment but simply 'permanently jailed in death.'
But the way it is used in the Scriptures helps with understanding its meaning there.
At Mt 8:6 it is used in regards to a man "laid up in the house with paralysis". It was the health condition that had him "suffering terribly."
At 2 Pe 2:8 we are told that Lot was "tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds" he saw and heard of in Sodom.
At both Mt 14:24 and Mr 6:48 this term was used to describe "struggling to row" a boat against the wind.
The Greek noun ba-sa-ni-stes' at Mt 18:34 is rendered "jailers" or "tormentors" depending on what translation you are using. While literal torment sometimes occurs in a prison setting (Acts 22:24,29), it the case of Mt 18:34 it was not used literally. (Mt 18:30)
We can see another situation where torment merely means jailed and not literal torment, by comparing the parallel accounts of Mt 8:29 and Lu 8:31. Sin
"And look! they screamed, saying: 'What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?'" - Mt 8:29
"And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss." - Lu 8:31
Since the 'lake of fire' is called the "second death". (Re 20:14) and death is likened to sleep, (Mt 9:24) the "tormented day and night forever and ever" of Re 20:10 is not literal torment but simply 'permanently jailed in death.'
truthofscripture
Active Member
Hell
Definition: The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohlʹ and its Greek equivalent haiʹdes, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek geʹen·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).
Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?
Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)
Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?
Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)
“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.
“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.
Conceivia
Working to save mankind
The concept of eternal hell is something which the hatred in people clings to. The more hatred in a person, the easier it is to believe in such a concept. The truth in the Bible is hidden from regular people, and revealed only to God's prophets. It is easy to hide things from people, by simply letting their hatred bring out misunderstandings.
Sometimes things are said to deliberately throw people off track, 'cause the survival of mankind is at stake. Usually though, things are true in a certain sense, but not the way people understand them.
Most people get their understanding from what other people say. It is largely mythology and legend, much of their believes in not even in the Bible.
Tony
Sometimes things are said to deliberately throw people off track, 'cause the survival of mankind is at stake. Usually though, things are true in a certain sense, but not the way people understand them.
Most people get their understanding from what other people say. It is largely mythology and legend, much of their believes in not even in the Bible.
Tony
Triumphant Leader: You couldn't have been farther from the truth on anything you have said accept that God is a loving God. After that the rest you said is garbage and totally never taught. That is your interpretations and a misunderstood one at that. God does not send us to hell. It is our choice to be sent to hell because of the choices we make with our lives. To be forever choosing to remain s separate from him is hell and that in an of itself total torcher. There are no sinners in heaven so there are choices good, bad and in between. In the end we can do what the thief on the cross did and let God know we are sorry and be forgiven through repentance or we can remain stubborn and chose to go to Hell. Hell is not necessarily a place but a dimension where God does not exist with us or for us. God is likened to a good parent. A good parent does not let a child act like a spoiled brat and then reward them for being bad. He allows us the freedom to make our choices and we pick where we are going but He decides according to our actions in the end. God has sent many people in your path to give you the chance to repent but if upon your death even if it is the last second you don't then you are the one who chooses where you are headed by your attitude and behavior. God knows your heart and he knows if you are playing games or if you truly believe all this crap that the world is telling you. Satan if for real and he does everything he can to trick you into believing that God is a farce. It doesn't matter who told you what or why you did something wrong. In the end it will be do you believe in me and do you love your neighbor as yourself. He's not asking you to agree with all the scientific things that have happened since the beginning of time but just where you finally stand with Him and did you lead a life to prove how you believe. I hope you don't believe everything you hear and see on TV, The internet or the movies because the devil can be very deceiving and calculating when he needs to be. After all he doesn't want to be in hell by himself. But he already knows where he is the question is do you know how to prevent yourself from joining him?
lostsoul62
New Member
God doesn't punish Bad people he punishes people who don't believe in his son. So do whatever you want, have fun, do drug, punch people in the face and just be am *** but as long as you believe in Jesus your OK. Now what I want to know is how can 2 Billion people believe that?
J Ciresoli
Member
To rip and mix a line from my favorite movie about a religious totalitarian dictatorship, "Unity through tyranny, tyranny through faith." Almost every religion, even going back to the Sumerians (c.6500-4000 B.C.E.), has had a control mechanism built into its theology, the most effective of which has been fear. I am an atheist who spent 20 years as a Christian and a little more than a year in seminary (dropped out because of the cost and lack of financial support) and this also bothered me. As I studied the Hebrew word "Sheol", it became clear that this teaching is actually derived from pre-Christian paganism, as many of the teachings in scripture are. The Jewish people generally do not believe in eternal conscious torment as hell, but understand that the Hebrew word "sheol" actually means "pit, grave, grave of mankind". This crept in through a pagan use of the word "haides". The first meaning of this Koine Greek term refers to the Ancient Greek god of Orcus, known as Hades, in the anglicized version. The second meaning is in reference to Orcus itself, the eternal dwelling place for souls (this is also where Christians get the doctrine of the eternal soul, in part). The third definition is directly in step with the Hebrew word "sheol" and means "the pit, the grave, hell (later)". Prior to the New Testament, no scripture justified the eternal conscious torture of people, neither was there any basis for the idea that are souls are eternal. The Jewish people knew what the scriptures said about the soul, and, therefore, generally reject this pagan idea. In a sense, the reason for bringing up the doctrine of the eternal soul is because the church's teaching on hell is dependent on this, else the entire house of cards falls apart and people start questioning what else they were taught that was a bag of lies. Over eight times in the OT, man is described as having a temporary existence, being mortal, not living eternally. However, the church simply twists this to say that the verses are referring to physical existence. The problem with this, and the doctrine of hell, is that it essentially implies that without god, men can live forever, just like god is eternal. This is why the doctrine of eternal torture is so destructive to their Christians' credibility when they claim that they are not god. Their teachings reflect that they have attributes only ever given to god and, therefore, make their claims to be contradictory, one of which has to be a lie.