Loving God = Eternal Torture?

[Deidre]

I've come to the decision that if a god exists, and I'm banished to hell for all eternity, it might be better than spending all of eternity with that kind of god...in heaven. That's how I see it, now. Thankfully, I don't believe in heaven or hell, at least not in terms of reward vs punishment. Not sure if there exists an 'after life,' but if so...I will find out when I die. I'm not spending my life worrying about something that most likely is a fictional tale designed to keep me in line.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I've come to the decision that if a god exists, and I'm banished to hell for all eternity, it might be better than spending all of eternity with that kind of god...in heaven..

I don't see how it could be better to take a path towards mental anguish that is of our own making..

..I'm not spending my life worrying about something that most likely is a fictional tale designed to keep me in line..

"There is no compulsion in religion .. truth is distinct from falsehood"

It's all about self-discipline .. Almighty God is not in need of our worship and sacrifice .. it is we who are in need of help and guidance. Religion is not all about ourself and what we like .. it's about what is good for our families, communities and society .. in fact the whole world!

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I don't believe in heaven or hell, at least not in terms of reward vs punishment..

If it were not for Almighty God's mercy, there would not be a single human-being in the paradise/heaven .. our intentions and sincerity is what takes us to paradise .. that is far more important than our brains/intellect and having a Ph.D. and so on .. we are all sinners/impure..

..turning away from our Maker can only end with a bad rapport

 

[Deidre]

I don't see how it could be better to take a path towards mental anguish that is of our own making..



"There is no compulsion in religion .. truth is distinct from falsehood"

It's all about self-discipline .. Almighty God is not in need of our worship and sacrifice .. it is we who are in need of help and guidance. Religion is not all about ourself and what we like .. it's about what is good for our families, communities and society .. in fact the whole world!

Because such a God expects me to be perpetually forgiving when he is not? I wouldn't banish someone to a fire pit for eternity, simply because he/she didn't do as I wished. If this is who god is, then heaven and hell must look a lot alike.

 

[truthofscripture]

I've come to the decision that if a god exists, and I'm banished to hell for all eternity, it might be better than spending all of eternity with that kind of god...in heaven. That's how I see it, now. Thankfully, I don't believe in heaven or hell, at least not in terms of reward vs punishment. Not sure if there exists an 'after life,' but if so...I will find out when I die. I'm not spending my life worrying about something that most likely is a fictional tale designed to keep me in line.

Well, guess what. The scriptures say we don't have an immortal soul, that no one goes to hell, which is the grave, not a place of torment. Only 144,000 go to heaven, and the rest of us are resurrected into a paradise Earth and will live eternally.

 

[Deidre]

If it were not for Almighty God's mercy, there would not be a single human-being in the paradise/heaven .. our intentions and sincerity is what takes us to paradise .. that is far more important than our brains/intellect and having a Ph.D. and so on .. we are all sinners/impure..

..turning away from our Maker can only end with a bad rapport

Mercy for what though? What have I done that I constantly need to be bowing down to god, begging for his mercy?

The god you are describing...created human kind to be fallible, and then is angry when it is fallible? Again...to spend eternity with such a god, sounds awful.

 

[Deidre]

Well, guess what. The scriptures say we don't have an immortal soul, that no one goes to hell, which is the grave, not a place of torment. Only 144,000 go to heaven, and the rest of us are resurrected into a paradise Earth and will live eternally.

I'm not sure what you mean? What scriptures?

 

[muhammad_isa]

.. I wouldn't banish someone to a fire pit for eternity, simply because he/she didn't do as I wished..

The Creator of mankind knows what He created .. we are weak..

If you want to pass your driving test, you MUST drive as the instructor tells you..
..if you wish to 'cut off your nose to spite your face', you will drive however you wish and most likely fail!

This would not be the instructor's fault

 

[muhammad_isa]

Mercy for what though? What have I done that I constantly need to be bowing down to god, begging for his mercy?

The ritual prayer is for us .. it frees us from evil and helps to keep our body and mind in good shape .. it's a blessing.

All praise and thanks is for Almighty God who created us and gave us our nature.

We are free to choose whatever we like .. those who enter the paradise will be pleased with God, and God will be pleased with/for them..

Those who enter hell will do so due to ingratitude and arrogance..

"Almighty God does not wrong anyone an atom's weight .. it's mankind who wrong themselves"

Blaming God for 'throwing us in the fire' is an excuse .. blame anyone/anything but ourself!

 

[Deidre]

The Creator of mankind knows what He created .. we are weak..

If you want to pass your driving test, you MUST drive as the instructor tells you..
..if you wish to 'cut off your nose to spite your face', you will drive however you wish and most likely fail!

This would not be the instructor's fault

The instructor isn't sending me to hell though if i don't pass. lol
Eternal punishment is very strange to me.

 

[Deidre]

The ritual prayer is for us .. it frees us from evil and helps to keep our body and mind in good shape .. it's a blessing.

All praise and thanks is for Almighty God who created us and gave us our nature.

We are free to choose whatever we like .. those who enter the paradise will be pleased with God, and God will be pleased with/for them..

Those who enter hell will do so due to ingratitude and arrogance..

"Almighty God does not wrong anyone an atom's weight .. it's mankind who wrong themselves"

Blaming God for 'throwing us in the fire' is an excuse .. blame anyone/anything but ourself!

I don't believe that God sends anyone there. I just don't believe such a place exists. Because I don't believe that God, an almighty and powerful creator...is about punishing and rewarding mankind for its deeds. I used to believe some of that, as a Christian...and for the time I was exploring Islam, I tried to wrap my head around it again. But, I just don't believe it. It seems hypocritical for God to ask me to be forgiving of others, when he won't be of me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't believe that God sends anyone there. I just don't believe such a place exists.

The problem that you describe, as I see it, is one of envisaging Almighty God as 'a man with a beard in the sky' angrily sentencing you to hell forever.

That is not what Almighty God is .. He is not a man or woman ..He is not a creature .. He is spiritual .. when we read in the Bible or Qur'an that God rewards or punishes, we should not think of that like we would an earthly King making a judgement.

It is a spiritual condition.

"Almighty God is closer to us than our jugular vein"

When we say that experiencing pain of some kind is not fair, that does not make the pain go away .. there is pleasure and there is pain .. it's serious .. the meaning of life is serious .. there is no reason to assume that a life after death would not include pain, be ot mental or physical.

The description of hell and heaven is a synonym for success and failure. If we are in hell forever, it will be becuse we choose to follow the devil and be with him .. it's not easy to change our direction in life .. it's serious .. how could a persistant murderer ever be trusted? If that person were to be in heaven, it would no longer be heaven!

Almighty God is not a tyrant .. .. it's how it is, whether we see it as fair or not! A child often thinks that their parent is not being fair .. however, as they mature they see somewhat differently. We have obligations to ourselves and others

 

[truthofscripture]

I don't believe that God sends anyone there. I just don't believe such a place exists. Because I don't believe that God, an almighty and powerful creator...is about punishing and rewarding mankind for its deeds. I used to believe some of that, as a Christian...and for the time I was exploring Islam, I tried to wrap my head around it again. But, I just don't believe it. It seems hypocritical for God to ask me to be forgiving of others, when he won't be of me.

The scriptures say hell is nothing more than the "common grave of mankind". It's the grave. We die, we are in hell, not some place of torment. the scriptures say we ARE a soul, not that we have a soul. Soul means life, life means soul. It's not a separate part of us that is in us, or that survives our death. That's exactly what the scriptures teach.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Sorry for the Hunger Games reference. I was being a little silly. Jesus died for our ransom. A ransom involves a payment, rescue and redemption.

So like Aslan and the White Witch, then.

I'd say Ransom Theory is a better way of framing things than Satisfaction Theory, in that it doesn't require that we frame God in terms of a puffed-up mortal aristocrat who is ultimately the source of the problem--although I'm more partial to full-on Christus Victor Theory myself, which doesn't really frame Jesus in terms of a sacrifice at all.

The thing is, Ransom Theory doesn't require that death/hell be considered just, but merely how things are without Jesus' intervention. If anything, one can see that intervention as a reaffirmation of justice in the face of a fundamentally iniquitous system. Salvation isn't an aberration; it's how things are supposed to be. Sin and "death" are the aberrations, salvation the corrective.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Except Paul didn't say it. The verbiage is inconsistent with Paul. In fact, it's formulaic and comes from a source other than Paul.

Almost certainly from a later generation, in fact. Paul is rife with that sort of interpolation, since he's already such a dynamic and energetic author who flits from one topic to the next with a kind of maddening, mystical logic. So lots of folks seem to have elected to plant these doctrinal axioms throughout his epistles.

The thing is, I think those bits are a large part of why Paul is underappreciated by many people. He's actually a brilliant fellow with a very deep understanding, yet so many people think he's this doctrinaire figure spouting rules and formulas, which is directly contrary to the spirit of his message.

And that sort of interpolation needn't have been malicious. Any student of classical texts knows how easily marginal notes and commentaries can get shoved into the main text by copyists. And anybody who thought they were writing in the spirit or tradition of St. Paul might feel justified in "clarifying" things with their own addenda.

None of that was at all uncommon, but it does tend to poke holes in the views of people who want to see the Biblical texts as having an absolute, supernatural integrity (which would pretty much be unheard-of for texts of that period).

 

[sojourner]

The scriptures say we don't have an immortal soul

Not according to Paul.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Not according to Paul.

I'm not so sure. In the part of 1 Corinthians where he talks about resurrection (after scoffing at people for their lack of understanding when they ask what sort of body the resurrected will have), Paul says that the physical body and the "soul-body" are both mortal, in contrast with the "Spirit-body." According to Paul, all that is born is subject to death; only what is unborn, uncreated, truly eternal is immune to death. And that means no beginning or end.

Actually, early Christians apparently agreed with the Epicureans on the point of the mortality of the soul (wish I could remember the name of the apologetic text in which they use him). And really, what is a soul? In ancient times people didn't understand how "inert" matter could be animate, so some posited an animating force. Or they didn't understand consciousness, so some posited a supernatural seat of the mind that was in some sense detachable from the body. Even the ancient Greek psyche was ambiguous in meaning. It may be that Paul is thinking of the animating force, or it could be that he's talking about gross consciousness, which I think we all know to be mortal (then and now).

 

[Deidre]

The scriptures say hell is nothing more than the "common grave of mankind". It's the grave. We die, we are in hell, not some place of torment. the scriptures say we ARE a soul, not that we have a soul. Soul means life, life means soul. It's not a separate part of us that is in us, or that survives our death. That's exactly what the scriptures teach.

Why do you equate death with hell? Just curious on that point.

The problem that you describe, as I see it, is one of envisaging Almighty God as 'a man with a beard in the sky' angrily sentencing you to hell forever.

That is not what Almighty God is .. He is not a man or woman ..He is not a creature .. He is spiritual .. when we read in the Bible or Qur'an that God rewards or punishes, we should not think of that like we would an earthly King making a judgement.

It is a spiritual condition.

"Almighty God is closer to us than our jugular vein"

When we say that experiencing pain of some kind is not fair, that does not make the pain go away .. there is pleasure and there is pain .. it's serious .. the meaning of life is serious .. there is no reason to assume that a life after death would not include pain, be ot mental or physical.

The description of hell and heaven is a synonym for success and failure. If we are in hell forever, it will be becuse we choose to follow the devil and be with him .. it's not easy to change our direction in life .. it's serious .. how could a persistant murderer ever be trusted? If that person were to be in heaven, it would no longer be heaven!

Almighty God is not a tyrant .. .. it's how it is, whether we see it as fair or not! A child often thinks that their parent is not being fair .. however, as they mature they see somewhat differently. We have obligations to ourselves and others

But, one's reason for 'doing good deeds' in this life shouldn't be contingent upon an after life. That was always the problem I had with Christianity and its version of an after life. So many religious people are worried about an after life. If we all live our lives in service to others, living productive lives filled with gratitude, that isn't following the Devil. Your religion is different than what I once believed. So what religion should one follow to 'keep out' of hell? That is the problem. To me, it is enough to believe in a god. I don't believe that he requires me to follow Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism, etc...to know him any better. Christianity is far different than Islam...so who will see heaven and who will see hell?

If an after life exists, no one knows what it is. All religions guess. I don't believe that I need to follow a 2000+ year old religion in order to know God. But, that is just me.

 

[sojourner]

I'm not so sure. In the part of 1 Corinthians where he talks about resurrection (after scoffing at people for their lack of understanding when they ask what sort of body the resurrected will have), Paul says that the physical body and the "soul-body" are both mortal, in contrast with the "Spirit-body." According to Paul, all that is born is subject to death; only what is unborn, uncreated, truly eternal is immune to death. And that means no beginning or end.

Actually, early Christians apparently agreed with the Epicureans on the point of the mortality of the soul (wish I could remember the name of the apologetic text in which they use him). And really, what is a soul? In ancient times people didn't understand how "inert" matter could be animate, so some posited an animating force. Or they didn't understand consciousness, so some posited a supernatural seat of the mind that was in some sense detachable from the body. Even the ancient Greek psyche was ambiguous in meaning. It may be that Paul is thinking of the animating force, or it could be that he's talking about gross consciousness, which I think we all know to be mortal (then and now).

But Paul also doesn't buy into the Platonistic dualism of the Greeks. Paul's whole deal about resurrection is that it is heavily tied to apocalyptic -- that is, that resurrection is part od God's ultimate plan for humanity that is made manifest in Jesus' resurrection. Since, for Paul, we are the body of Christ, it is within God's plan that we share in his resurrection.

[edit] I suppose it makes a difference what is meant by "we have an immortal soul." Paul makes no distinction between soul and body (as the Greeks do). For Paul, resurrection is from the dead -- IOW, the soul is not immortal inherently. The immortal soul is raised up from death. So, in the sense that God has a natural plan in place to make that happen, the soul can be said to be "immortal." But it must pass through death first, meaning that it is not immortal in the sense that it does not die first. According to Paul.

 

[truthofscripture]

Why do you equate death with hell? Just curious on that point.




But, one's reason for 'doing good deeds' in this life shouldn't be contingent upon an after life. That was always the problem I had with Christianity and its version of an after life. So many religious people are worried about an after life. If we all live our lives in service to others, living productive lives filled with gratitude, that isn't following the Devil. Your religion is different than what I once believed. So what religion should one follow to 'keep out' of hell? That is the problem. To me, it is enough to believe in a god. I don't believe that he requires me to follow Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism, etc...to know him any better. Christianity is far different than Islam...so who will see heaven and who will see hell?

If an after life exists, no one knows what it is. All religions guess. I don't believe that I need to follow a 2000+ year old religion in order to know God. But, that is just me.

Deidre, the Bible says hell is not some place of torment and fire and torture, but it is nothing more than the grave. Hell is the same as sheol, hades, and grave. they all mean the same thing.