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Loving God = Eternal Torture?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
No. I am part of God's Earthly organization. Part of the original Christian Congregation that Jesus began.
And the King James is a sure fire way to be misinformed and misled.

Thank you for your reply.
I am Not saying KJV can Not misinform/ mislead, but that clergy use it to misinform/mislead.
Regarding an accurate translation: What was the reply from the Ethiopian official at Acts 8:30,31 ?

Isn't being part of God's earthly organization also part of James 1:27 ?________
Isn't worship connected to religion ?________
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Actually, wasn't Adam and Eve's "sin" enough to screw the entire human race? According to Christian doctrine, I mean. So it doesn't really matter if any of us have sinned or not. According to Christianity, we're damaged good straight out of the box, right?
Why not simply forgive? Doesn't it strike you as rather odd that an allegedly omnipotent and omniscient being can't figure out how to simply forgive?

First of all, God is Not omnipotent because God can Not lie, make you obey Him, make you be righteous or loving.

God chooses Not to know our choices. Adam was created as a free moral agent.
Adam and Eve knew God's Law - You eat, you die.- Genesis 3:3
God can Not go back on His word, His Law.

If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can Not stop sinning we die. We can Not resurrect oneself or another. That is why we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will. - Rev. 1:18

Jesus, during his 1000-year kingdom rule over earth, he will undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us. - Revelation 22:2 - humble meek people - Psalm 37 vs 11,29 - will inherit the earth forever and ever. Our last enemy ' death ' will be brought to nothing - 1st Corinthians 15:26
 
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atpollard

Active Member
Just not by the actual sinner. God just wants his pound of flesh, right? He doesn't care who gets it comes from.



Actually, wasn't Adam and Eve's "sin" enough to screw the entire human race? According to Christian doctrine, I mean. So it doesn't really matter if any of us have sinned or not. According to Christianity, we're damaged good straight out of the box, right?



For the weekend. That's all.



And how is that just? You still haven't explained how that is just.



But a willing volunteer is? How utterly twisted. Do you understand how sick that sounds?



Again: How does that qualify as "just?"



So you're dealing with two entities ... or one?



Royally shafted = inconvenienced for a few days.

If you take one episode of crucifixion and divide that by the entire population of the human race throughout all time ... what does that work out to? Nothing a few Advil wouldn't cover, I'd imagine.



How does that absolve you of anything? It's nothing more than scapegoating. Plus, it was all planned from the beginning, right? So it was unavoidable, correct?

Or was it?



This is assuming that your particular theology is correct, of course.

And unlike you, if it comes to it ... I'm willing to pay my debts myself rather than look to some sort of cosmic enabler.



Unless we could find a willing patsy to take the fall, of course.



Sorry. My patience to accommodate your cosmic flights of fancy is wearing thin.



Me either. I left my Atonement-By-Proxy slide rule at the office.



Again, Party A volunteering to pay the debt of Party B doesn't feel at all just. It feels doubly unjust.

And your shtick is getting tedious.



I'm sorry. Your rationalizations are getting too nauseating to contemplate.



Sounds exactly like the sort of thing a bunch of ignorant Bronze Age pastoralists would scheme up. It's a huge, barter-economy version of Let's make A Deal.



Why not simply forgive? Doesn't it strike you as rather odd that an allegedly omnipotent and omniscient being can't figure out how to simply forgive?
The beauty of free will is that you are not required to allow God to pay your debt.
You are free to pay it yourself.
So let me know how that works out for you.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It appears that an omniscient God created a faulty product and then blamed his creations for behaving exactly as he'd designed them to behave.
That's an arguable assertion. The more I study religion, the more reprehensible it appears.
Adam and Eve didn't know any better. They ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and only after they knew better were they penalized by God. Makes perfect sense.
Actually, if God knows all things then he knew beforehand how things would work out. Correct?
Well ... some Christians insist that he cannot divine the results of human free will. So under that sort of theology, God is at least an iota short of total omniscience.
I take that to mean "Not viewing this twaddle through God-colored glasses can lead you to not believe as we do."
Which leads me to conclude that they deserve to be abandoned. The sooner, the better.

According to Scripture ' God can Not lie '- Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18 - so when God said you 'eat, you die', then God's word would prove true. That was Not a question of forgiving or Not forgiving. The known punishment for breaking that Law was: death.
Adam and Eve had the education and knowledge that eating forbidden fruit meant: death - Genesis 3:3
They chose to break God's Law full-well knowing the penalty for breaking the Law was: death.
No postmortem penalty just: death. Returning to where Adam started - Gen. 3:19 - going back to the dust of the ground.

By God gifting creation with free will then as free moral agents Adam and Eve could choose to obey the Law or break the Law.
True, God does know the final end - Revelation 22:2 - which is that all earth's nations will be blessed. As to who will be part of the humble meek who will inherit the earth is what remains to be seen - Psalm 37 vs 11,29.
God does Not force anyone to obey His Law that is up to each person to decide who they would like as Sovereign over them.
Just like God did Not force Adam and Eve to obey him. They chose to turn away from from divine law and imitate the opposition: Satan
By Adam breaking God's Law then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands, so to speak, and Adam put the law into man's hands.
Mankind's history, and the present world scene, shows that People Rule / Man's Rule can't establish Peace on Earth.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
I
If they were perfect, how could they have been misled by a talking snake?

So you're asserting that they had free will, but they did not know the difference between good and evil, correct?

Well … aside from one, right?

An accurate translation? Out of the multitude that are available?
What if they're all wrong?

What good does it do to issue proclamations to subjects that are ignorant of good and evil? Being commanded to not do X is the same as knowing that X is wrong?
This is where Christians lose me on the whole “We have objective morality and you don't” front. Divine commands hardly seem like objective morality.

Is this the correct time to urge you to pray over the matter?

The one true faith is not a religion? OK. Got it. We'll be revoking your tax-exempt status ASAP.

So you claim.
It appears to me that it is futile in discussing this with you, as you seem to refuse to believe you could possibly be incorrect.
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
I

It appears to me that it is futile in discussing this with you, as you seem to refuse to believe you could possibly be incorrect.

I am not insisting that I am correct. Mostly, I've been questioning the assertions made by theists. Notice all the question marks I've employed?

...

However, it does seem that the theistic worldview cannot help but raise more questions than it claims to answer. This appears to be the inescapable result of:

1.) attempting to answer questions by appealing to an even greater mystery.
2.) starting with a conclusion and working backwards to make the evidence fit the conclusion.

...

However, if you've opted to pack up your marbles and go home ... have a great day. Thanks for your efforts.
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
According to Scripture ' God can Not lie '- Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18

He can, however, apparently send "strong delusions" to people so that they'll believe lies (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

Granted, it does appear to be an interesting theological workaround.

... so when God said you 'eat, you die', then God's word would prove true.

How would Adam and Eve been equipped to evaluate the truth of that proclamation? Or are you advocating for blind obedience?

That was Not a question of forgiving or Not forgiving.

Why not? Is there anything in the Bible that states God is incapable of forgiveness?

The known punishment for breaking that Law was: death.

Eventually, correct?

Adam and Eve had the education

So the Divine Proclamation counted as the education?

... and knowledge that eating forbidden fruit meant: death - Genesis 3:3

If they didn't yet know good from evil, how did they know anything? How did they even know that God was good?

They chose to break God's Law full-well knowing ...

Can you please define "knowing?"

... the penalty for breaking the Law was: death.

At best, it can be said that they'd heard God make a claim regarding the consequences of eating the fruit, correct?

No postmortem penalty just: death.

So no hell, correct? At least not yet, right?

Returning to where Adam started - Gen. 3:19 - going back to the dust of the ground.

Where in the Bible does it state that God originally made humankind immortal?

By God gifting creation with free will then as free moral agents Adam and Eve could choose to obey the Law or break the Law.

Where in the Bible does it indicate that God gave man free will? How does a Christian claim such as "God knows everything that is actual and possible" dovetail with notions of free will?

God does Not force anyone to obey His Law that is up to each person to decide who they would like as Sovereign over them.

I suppose that is correct. Unless one views the threat of infinite damnation for finite offenses as "forcing."

In that sense, a gunman in a bank robbery isn't forcing anyone to hand over the money either, correct? The victims of his crime choose to abet him, correct? In fact, since they're willing accomplices, it isn't even correct to view them as "victims" is it?

Just like God did Not force Adam and Eve to obey him.

I will maintain that the reason that they didn't obey him is that they couldn't have obeyed him. The Bible says as much.

They chose to turn away from from divine law and imitate the opposition: Satan

Again: Isn't this because (as the Bible indicates) they did not know how to differentiate between good and evil? Isn't this evident from the scriptures themselves?

By Adam breaking God's Law then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands, so to speak, and Adam put the law into man's hands.
Mankind's history, and the present world scene, shows that People Rule / Man's Rule can't establish Peace on Earth.

Doesn't the Bible makes it clear that peace on earth (or elsewhere) was clearly impossible even when God alone was calling the shots?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
NulliuSINverba -

Animals were never granted eternal life. Adam and Eve would have seen bugs and animals die. They would have seen plants die.

Through Jesus then God forgives us. Mercifully forgives us.

How could they Not know God is good ? Weren't they in perfect human health living in a beautiful paradisaic Garden of Eden
Out of all the trees on earth, how many trees belonged to God. Only one forbidden tree.
There were informed [ educated ] you eat, you die.

Knowing is: what Eve said to Satan at Genesis 3:3. Eve knew [had knowledge ] you eat, you die.

NO where does the Bible say mankind [ or angel kind ] is immortal.
Mortal Adam could only live on earth as long as he did Not break God's Law. Eternal life does Not mean immortal life.
Even Satan is Not immortal because according to Hebrew 2:14 B Jesus will destroy Satan.

Choices show free will - Deut. 30:19 - Adam was Not forced to obey God.
Where does the Bible teach they could Not obey God ?_____________
What was Joshua's choice at Joshua 24:15 ?

God placed mankind in charge of Earth - Psalm 115:16 - Adam was in charge. By breaking God's Law then Adam set up People Rule.
Human history has shown that ' man in charge ' without God's guidance can Not establish Peace on Earth .
Only Jesus, as Prince of Peace, can usher in an establish Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
That will take place during Jesus 1000-year kingdom rule over earth - Psalms 72:8,12-14; 37 vs 11,29
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member
How could they Not know God is good ?

Because they had not yet consumed the fruit from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Weren't they in perfect human health living in a beautiful paradisaic Garden of Eden

I don't know. However, there are Christians who'll insist that organisms don't evolve. It follows that Adam and Eve were afflicted from the beginning with every kind of disease and/or parasite that requires a human host. If they want to characterize that as "perfect human health" it's up to them. Perhaps you could ask them?

Out of all the trees on earth, how many trees belonged to God. Only one forbidden tree.

Did the prohibition imply ownership? Couldn't Adam and Eve made a tree house in the Forbidden Tree as long as they refrained from dining on it?

There were informed [ educated ] you eat, you die.

And die that very day, according to many translations:

"... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” ~ Genesis 2:17 (English Standard Version)

"... but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (New American Standard Bible )

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (King James Bible)

"... but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

"... but you are not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because you will certainly die during the day that you eat from it." ~ Genesis 2:17 (International Standard Version)

"... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou dost eat of it thou shalt surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (Jubilee Bible 2000)

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (King James 2000 Bible)

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (American King James Version)

"... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (American Standard Version)

"... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (Darby Bible Translation)

"... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (Revised English Version)

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17(Webster's Bible Translation)

"... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die." ~ Genesis 2:17(World English Bible)

"... and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die." ~ Genesis 2:17 (Young's Literal Translation)


Wait. Let me guess: God was speaking literally concerning the death part, but figuratively concerning the exact timetable?

Maybe that's God's Ultimate Failing? He oscillates between speaking literally and figuratively without warning?

Knowing is: what Eve said to Satan at Genesis 3:3. Eve knew [had knowledge ] you eat, you die.

She said that she'd been told that. She had no way to know. Unless by "know" you mean "was told."

I'll maintain that "was told" is as wretched a definition for "know" as we're likely to find.

NO where does the Bible say mankind [ or angel kind ] is immortal.

A lot of times, theists insist that the only reason humans die is because of sin. It's refreshing to encounter a theist who'll concede that Adam and Eve would have eventually croaked even if they had not sinned.

Eternal life does Not mean immortal life.

Oh do please elaborate on the distinction between the two!

Even Satan is Not immortal because according to Hebrew 2:14 B Jesus will destroy Satan.

Perhaps we need to define "mortal?" Do you have any problem with this one?

Undoubtedly, that which is not "certain to die" can still be destroyed, correct?
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
Thank you for your reply.
I am Not saying KJV can Not misinform/ mislead, but that clergy use it to misinform/mislead.
Regarding an accurate translation: What was the reply from the Ethiopian official at Acts 8:30,31 ?

Isn't being part of God's earthly organization also part of James 1:27 ?________
Isn't worship connected to religion ?________
He said he couldn't understand without help. That help came from one of the holy spirit annointed disciples. Having that holy spirit help from God allowed Phillip to fully understand the scriptures from Isaiah. It's actually impossible to understand any of the scriptures without God using holy spirit to help one understand, as Satan has put a veil over the scriptures to prevent most people from understanding. Holy spirit is the only way to pierce that veil

James 1:27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.
This scripture refers to holy spirit annointed or holy spirit helped persons. The scriptures, rather the Christian Greek scriptures, are all written by and addressed only to those who are holy spirit annointed. They are the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation to John. They are to teach the great flock or great crowd that no one was able to number. Having that holy spirit help allows one to discern what God's will for us actually is, and we are therefore able to keep ourselves without spot (sin) from the world (which refers to the people and the societies of the world, not the Earth itself).

As far as worship being connected to religion, I would have to say no. Religion is essentially the belief system and teaching of things that differ from what the scriptures teach. The letter to the holy spirit annointed Christian Congregation in Galatia says, in chapter five, verses 19-21, that sects (of the one true faith) are works of the flesh. In Revelation to John, the angel is showing John that all those false religions claiming to be sects/denominations of the one true faith are "Babylon the Great", and are all going to be destroyed, along with all their participants, in the final battle, the Great Day of God the Almighty, known as the Battle of Armageddon (which is a metaphor for a huge battle involving all governments of the world). So, no, religion is not tied to worship of God, they only pretend so. Religion reared it's head at the hand of Satan, in the garden in Eden. Satan told Eve things about God that were not true (the meaning of religion), and she made Adam the first proselyte. That act of Satan caused sin, lies, sickness, aging, and death to enter the world. Adam, being the first perfect man, caused all of his progeny to inherit that which God pronounced upon him. It took Jesus' death, since he was the second perfect man, to pay for that ransom. Jesus death gave us the chance to eventually overcome the sin, aging, sickness and death that Satan caused to enter the world.

I could never understand the scriptures for decades, until I began doing God's will. He caused me to understand what I was reading. He put me in touch with some of the remnant of the 144,000 annointed who understood the scriptures. With that help, I have learned things that no religion could or would ever teach. Religions all teach things differering from what the scriptures teach, and all religions teach things different from all other religions. Quite a mess. After all, it says in Rev. 12: 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
Satan uses religion and false translations of the scriptures as two of his most effective tools in that misleading. Media, peer pressure, greed, and other things are on that list, but religion and the mistranslated scriptures do most of the work for him.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I'm curious as to what you believe about the fate of the millions of souls who have lived on earth without ever having even heard of Jesus Christ. Does God just turn a blind eye to the fact that they never accepted Jesus Christ, or are they just consigned to an eternity in Hell due to the fact that they happened to be born at the wrong time and in the wrong place? If you don't believe that God would give everyone the opportunity to at least hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, then apparently you don't believe in a "first chance" either. By the way, I, too, believe in a judgment after death. It is by this judgment that people find themselves either in Paradise or in Prison/Hell. This judgment is not the same thing as the "Final Judgment," though. That judgment does not come immediately after death.

But since you and I have heard of Jesus, I'd much rather discuss whether we're set. Are you 100% assured that you are okay with Jesus?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
How does that work? The two would appear to be mutually exclusive.

Doesn't mercy involve the suspension of justice? If God were even 1% merciful, how can he be 100% just?



Then wouldn't a 100% just God send us all to hell"



How is that 100% just?



If one man is required to suffer for the sins of all humanity, how is that 100% just?

I think we over-literalizing "100%" here. God can neither be more loving nor more just. Heaven is great example of the love of God. Hell is an awesome justice example.

And yes, you are correct, if one man suffers for all men, that is not right. Nor can one man atone for more than one man. Fortunately, the atoner was Himself God and King.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
But since you and I have heard of Jesus, I'd much rather discuss whether we're set. Are you 100% assured that you are okay with Jesus?
Yes I am, and I'm sure you'd say the same thing. Is there some reason why you don't want to talk about the millions who were not as fortunate as we are?
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
Yes I am, and I'm sure you'd say the same thing. Is there some reason why you don't want to talk about the millions who were not as fortunate as we are?
If those millions are already dead, they will be resurrected and have one thousand years of judgement day to learn the new scrolls from Jehovah God. If they learn them and obey, they will live eternally in a paradise Earth. That is what Revelation to John says, pretty clearly. Most of Revelation is metaphorical, but that part is pretty clear.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
If those millions are already dead, they will be resurrected and have one thousand years of judgement day to learn the new scrolls from Jehovah God. If they learn them and obey, they will live eternally in a paradise Earth. That is what Revelation to John says, pretty clearly. Most of Revelation is metaphorical, but that part is pretty clear.
Thanks, but I am already aware of the Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of the scriptures. I was curious as to what BillardsBall had to say on the subject.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
Thanks, but I am already aware of the Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of the scriptures. I was curious as to what BillardsBall had to say on the subject.
It's not an interpretation of the scriptures. It's what they say. I cannot understand why one would rely on another man's words, and reject God's.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
NulliuSINverba -

Than you for your reply.
Please keep in mind the word ' day ' in Scripture has shades of meaning.
Even in English we speak of grandfather's day and know we are Not talking about a 24 hour day but during his life time.
The ' creative days ' were Not a 24-hour day. There is nothing in Scripture which says how long each creative day lasted, or even if each of the creative days were of different or the same length in time.

Even a thousand years is as a day in God's eyes - Psalm 90:2 - God is Not limited by time as we are.
Adam died within that thousand-year day or time frame.
According to Genesis 5:5 Adam died at age 930. Under the 1000-year time frame of a 'day'.
Even the oldest person - Genesis 5:27 - died before age 1000.
So, Adam and Eve died within that thousand-year-day time frame.
Jesus will rule over earth during his coming ' millennial-long day ' of ruling over earth for a thousand years.

Eternal life or everlasting life simply means: living forever.
Just by saying eternal or everlasting does Not automatically mean: heaven.
Jesus referred to Psalm 37 vs 11,29 which says: the meek will inherit the earth forever.
That location for everlasting life is: earth.
Adam was only offered eternal life on: earth. Adam was Not offered to become an angel or a saint.
Adam would always have to eat and breathe, etc. to maintain his forever life on: earth.
Starting with Jesus' first apostles Jesus made a contract or covenant with them to become immortal as he became.
The immortal simply put are : deathproof. They are self contained, and have life from within themselves. Not dependent on food, air, etc.
Adam was Not death proof. Adam could only have eternal life if he did Not break God's law.
Those called to heaven - Rev. 20:6; 2:10; 5 vs 9,10; Daniel 7:18 - will become immortal as Jesus is now immortal - John 5:26
Those who will live on earth forever - John 3:13; Acts 2:34; Matthew 25 vs 31,32 - are offered everlasting life on earth as was originally offered to father Adam before his downfall.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
truthofscripture -

What is the ' worship ' at James 1:27 if Not religion ?__________ Greek: threskei'a, and in Latin: religio

Doesn't saying ' false religion ' imply that there is also ' true religion '? _________

At 2nd Kings 17 vs 26,27,33 the people did Not know the religion of the God of the land. They made their own 'god' verse 29.
What was the manner or religion of the ' God of the land ' but the God of the Bible that they should worship.
 
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