Father
Devourer of Truth
Good evening. this is a discussion about the verse in the Old testament mentioning Lucifer by name.
the only verse stating Lucifer that I know of. or at least originally states him by name.
Isiah 14:12-17
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the highest.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
“Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
this holds some problems though. "I will ascend into heaven" he is already in heaven. the highest sphere of heaven. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" that does not really come across as ascending God just the stars who are sometimes referred to as Angels.
"I will also sit on the mount of the congregation" reinforcing the angels part.
"on the farthest sides of the north" Lucifer is referred to as Prince of the East. what does north have to do with anything?
"yet you shall be brought down to Sheol" Sheol is not Hell. the Jews don't believe in Hell. Sheol is where all dead go. it's not Good or Evil it's just a place in the ground where mortals go. Heaven at the time was just thought of as where God and Angels reside. so why would an Angel be thrown into the place of the Human Dead?
this verse itself. seems more like it is referring to a Human than a celestial being. and in fact probably a King at the time for not being Holy. we see this in the bible all the time. David. Solomon. it seems every king ends up screwing up and getting some verses about there screw ups until everyone forgets about it a few books later and mentions them as the most Holy.
the backing of this would be the original use of the word satan or devil. they are verbs not names first and foremost. meaning Adversary and accuser. but God in the old testament had many. anyone who went against him was considered an Adversary in the sense. and so the words satan and devil are left more so open as a title than a Name. there is a verse also
Numbers 22::21-39 " I won't list the full story just this part.
1 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his Donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his Donkey, and his two servants were with him."
"Angel of the Lord stood in the way for an Adversary against him."
An adversary in Hebrew being satan. as its a verb. why would the Christian Lucifer work on Gods behalf? unless again there is no Lucifer and the satan just means Adversary and can be designated to many.
if you use what most Christians love to throw at others "out of context" the entire story they use to back the existence of Lucifer the Seraph the Highest archangel the fallen one. is all out of context.
especially if you just look at the point I made about the Verse Isiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
if such is the case it sort of destroy's the entirty or atleast majorty of christanity. there is no Adversary to fight. other than needing Jesus for the way. revelations is uneeded. as everything is just in occordance and allowed by the Abrahamic God.
I mean I love the character Lucifer as a character its very interesting I would advise if you have time to read the Comic Lucifer by DC and Vertigo it's quite good.
but everything I see historically and contextually wise goes against him being a biblical character other than the new testament where the story is a bit more intertwined.
Your thoughts on this?
the only verse stating Lucifer that I know of. or at least originally states him by name.
Isiah 14:12-17
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the highest.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
“Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
this holds some problems though. "I will ascend into heaven" he is already in heaven. the highest sphere of heaven. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" that does not really come across as ascending God just the stars who are sometimes referred to as Angels.
"I will also sit on the mount of the congregation" reinforcing the angels part.
"on the farthest sides of the north" Lucifer is referred to as Prince of the East. what does north have to do with anything?
"yet you shall be brought down to Sheol" Sheol is not Hell. the Jews don't believe in Hell. Sheol is where all dead go. it's not Good or Evil it's just a place in the ground where mortals go. Heaven at the time was just thought of as where God and Angels reside. so why would an Angel be thrown into the place of the Human Dead?
this verse itself. seems more like it is referring to a Human than a celestial being. and in fact probably a King at the time for not being Holy. we see this in the bible all the time. David. Solomon. it seems every king ends up screwing up and getting some verses about there screw ups until everyone forgets about it a few books later and mentions them as the most Holy.
the backing of this would be the original use of the word satan or devil. they are verbs not names first and foremost. meaning Adversary and accuser. but God in the old testament had many. anyone who went against him was considered an Adversary in the sense. and so the words satan and devil are left more so open as a title than a Name. there is a verse also
Numbers 22::21-39 " I won't list the full story just this part.
1 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his Donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.
22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his Donkey, and his two servants were with him."
"Angel of the Lord stood in the way for an Adversary against him."
An adversary in Hebrew being satan. as its a verb. why would the Christian Lucifer work on Gods behalf? unless again there is no Lucifer and the satan just means Adversary and can be designated to many.
if you use what most Christians love to throw at others "out of context" the entire story they use to back the existence of Lucifer the Seraph the Highest archangel the fallen one. is all out of context.
especially if you just look at the point I made about the Verse Isiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
if such is the case it sort of destroy's the entirty or atleast majorty of christanity. there is no Adversary to fight. other than needing Jesus for the way. revelations is uneeded. as everything is just in occordance and allowed by the Abrahamic God.
I mean I love the character Lucifer as a character its very interesting I would advise if you have time to read the Comic Lucifer by DC and Vertigo it's quite good.
but everything I see historically and contextually wise goes against him being a biblical character other than the new testament where the story is a bit more intertwined.
Your thoughts on this?
