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Lucifer. is there a Devil?

Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
osgart said:
Ezekiel ch. 28 refers to the anointed cherub. and the fall and becoming of that high ranking angel. by deduction it has to be Lucifer. and this cherub has a certain fate because of its iniquity.

I think it's quite clear that there in the bible, not the tanakh, that their is a great adversary, but more then that, an enemy of God and forever so.

if Lucifer were just an adversary that would make for an interesting angel. but the anointed cherub is contrary to God and one who is to be destroyed forever because it lacks all justice and is dead set against justice.

I believe also in Job I think , leviathan at the bottom of the sea has a heart of stone.

when I was young I used to think of devils as equal to angels, only they defended truth differently. angels defended with good, and devils defended with bad.

now I don't buy into any of it. but it is interesting. the stories are worthy. however one might take them.
Click to expand...

There is NO Lucifer.

And Ezekiel 28, just like Isaiah 14, is talking about a real place and a human King.

1. the Jerusalem Temple is also a type of Garden of Eden, on a mount. You can find this in rabbinical writings.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God (Temple, or supposed Garden location, see 2.); every precious stone was thy covering, (These stones are specifically traded in Tyre.)(also the Urim and Tumim breastplate worn by the high priest) the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth (anointed King protector of his people); and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God (the Temple Mt.); thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

The king would be an anointed one, protector of the people, who actually walked on the holy mount, in what they consider the original Garden of Eden area, and deals in all of the mentioned stones, etc. The stones could also refer to the Priests jeweled breastplate.

The imagery of the Garden, with its serpent and cherubim, has been compared to the images of the Solomonic Temple with its copper serpent (the nehushtan) and guardian cherubs

This "brazen serpent" became an object of adoration to Israel, and so remained until Hezekiah destroyed it by breaking it into fragments (II Kings xviii. 4). Jewish Encyclopedia (So the earthly Temple Eden even had a serpent.)

"t appears that the Lebanon is an alternative placement in Phoenician myth (as in Ez 28,13, III.48) of the Garden of Eden",[16] and there are connections between paradise, the garden of Eden and the forests of Lebanon (possibly used symbolically) within prophetic writings.[17] Edward Lipinski and Peter Kyle McCarter have suggested that the Garden of the gods (Sumerian paradise), the oldest Sumerian version of the Garden of Eden, relates to a mountain sanctuary in the Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon ranges.[18] Garden of Eden - Wikipedia

An interesting study on Tyre from a Christian site - Tyre - Hastings' Dictionary of the Bible - Bible Dictionary - StudyLight.org

"Old Tyre was destroyed (Ezekiel 26:7-12 ), but the Babylonian army in vain wearied itself in trying to subdue the island ( Ezekiel 29:18 ). It is probable that the city finally capitulated on favourable terms. The long siege, however, had ruined her commerce, and for 50 years Tyre was a poverty-stricken town. An attempt at a republic did not improve her fortunes. She was involved in the struggle between Nebuchadnezzar II. and Pharaoh-hophra ( Jeremiah 44:30 ). was for a time under Egypt, but finally fell to Babylon, and remained a dependency until the overthrow of the Babylonian Empire. Her humbled state did not change her people’s temper. Their pride ( Ezekiel 28:2 ), their contempt for the rights of man ( Amos 1:9 ), their slave-trading propensities ( Joel 3:4-8 ) are denounced by the Hebrew prophets."

Tyre fell to Babylon. So, this also is a tale of the fall of Babylon and her kings, just like Isaiah 14.

*
 
osgart

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Ingledsva said:
There is NO Lucifer.

And Ezekiel 28, just like Isaiah 14, is talking about a real place and a human King.

1. the Jerusalem Temple is also a type of Garden of Eden, on a mount. You can find this in rabbinical writings.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God (Temple, or supposed Garden location, see 2.); every precious stone was thy covering, (These stones are specifically traded in Tyre.)(also the Urim and Tumim breastplate worn by the high priest) the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth (anointed King protector of his people); and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God (the Temple Mt.); thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

The king would be an anointed one, protector of the people, who actually walked on the holy mount, in what they consider the original Garden of Eden area, and deals in all of the mentioned stones, etc. The stones could also refer to the Priests jeweled breastplate.

The imagery of the Garden, with its serpent and cherubim, has been compared to the images of the Solomonic Temple with its copper serpent (the nehushtan) and guardian cherubs

This "brazen serpent" became an object of adoration to Israel, and so remained until Hezekiah destroyed it by breaking it into fragments (II Kings xviii. 4). Jewish Encyclopedia (So the earthly Temple Eden even had a serpent.)

"t appears that the Lebanon is an alternative placement in Phoenician myth (as in Ez 28,13, III.48) of the Garden of Eden",[16] and there are connections between paradise, the garden of Eden and the forests of Lebanon (possibly used symbolically) within prophetic writings.[17] Edward Lipinski and Peter Kyle McCarter have suggested that the Garden of the gods (Sumerian paradise), the oldest Sumerian version of the Garden of Eden, relates to a mountain sanctuary in the Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon ranges.[18] Garden of Eden - Wikipedia

An interesting study on Tyre from a Christian site - Tyre - Hastings' Dictionary of the Bible - Bible Dictionary - StudyLight.org

"Old Tyre was destroyed (Ezekiel 26:7-12 ), but the Babylonian army in vain wearied itself in trying to subdue the island ( Ezekiel 29:18 ). It is probable that the city finally capitulated on favourable terms. The long siege, however, had ruined her commerce, and for 50 years Tyre was a poverty-stricken town. An attempt at a republic did not improve her fortunes. She was involved in the struggle between Nebuchadnezzar II. and Pharaoh-hophra ( Jeremiah 44:30 ). was for a time under Egypt, but finally fell to Babylon, and remained a dependency until the overthrow of the Babylonian Empire. Her humbled state did not change her people’s temper. Their pride ( Ezekiel 28:2 ), their contempt for the rights of man ( Amos 1:9 ), their slave-trading propensities ( Joel 3:4-8 ) are denounced by the Hebrew prophets."

Tyre fell to Babylon. So, this also is a tale of the fall of Babylon and her kings, just like Isaiah 14.

*
Click to expand...
than who is Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12?
The Tanakh [Full Text]
 
osgart

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
where would you get a reliable English translation of tanakh? and just how different is Judaism from say a kjv 1611?
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Father said:
Good evening. this is a discussion about the verse in the Old testament mentioning Lucifer by name.

the only verse stating Lucifer that I know of. or at least originally states him by name.

Isiah 14:12-17
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the highest.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

“Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

this holds some problems though. "I will ascend into heaven" he is already in heaven. the highest sphere of heaven. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" that does not really come across as ascending God just the stars who are sometimes referred to as Angels.
"I will also sit on the mount of the congregation" reinforcing the angels part.
"on the farthest sides of the north" Lucifer is referred to as Prince of the East. what does north have to do with anything?

"yet you shall be brought down to Sheol" Sheol is not Hell. the Jews don't believe in Hell. Sheol is where all dead go. it's not Good or Evil it's just a place in the ground where mortals go. Heaven at the time was just thought of as where God and Angels reside. so why would an Angel be thrown into the place of the Human Dead?

this verse itself. seems more like it is referring to a Human than a celestial being. and in fact probably a King at the time for not being Holy. we see this in the bible all the time. David. Solomon. it seems every king ends up screwing up and getting some verses about there screw ups until everyone forgets about it a few books later and mentions them as the most Holy.

the backing of this would be the original use of the word satan or devil. they are verbs not names first and foremost. meaning Adversary and accuser. but God in the old testament had many. anyone who went against him was considered an Adversary in the sense. and so the words satan and devil are left more so open as a title than a Name. there is a verse also

Numbers 22::21-39 " I won't list the full story just this part.
1 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his Donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.

22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his Donkey, and his two servants were with him."

"Angel of the Lord stood in the way for an Adversary against him."

An adversary in Hebrew being satan. as its a verb. why would the Christian Lucifer work on Gods behalf? unless again there is no Lucifer and the satan just means Adversary and can be designated to many.
if you use what most Christians love to throw at others "out of context" the entire story they use to back the existence of Lucifer the Seraph the Highest archangel the fallen one. is all out of context.

especially if you just look at the point I made about the Verse Isiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
if such is the case it sort of destroy's the entirty or atleast majorty of christanity. there is no Adversary to fight. other than needing Jesus for the way. revelations is uneeded. as everything is just in occordance and allowed by the Abrahamic God.

I mean I love the character Lucifer as a character its very interesting I would advise if you have time to read the Comic Lucifer by DC and Vertigo it's quite good.

but everything I see historically and contextually wise goes against him being a biblical character other than the new testament where the story is a bit more intertwined.

Your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

I believe Jesus said there is.

I believe that is the first time I have seen a reference to Hell in the OT ie the deepest pit of Sheol.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Enoch07 said:
You are forgetting that Satan goes by many names. Lucifer was his angelic name. Here is a list of some of his other names and titles.

Names for the DEVIL

This list left out several, one glaring omission is the King of Tyre which was another title Satan held.
Click to expand...

I believe it would be a stretch to think of him as an incarnation of the devil. More likely it is the meaning of satan as opposition just as Jesus called Peter a satan for opposing Jesus.
 
DavidFirth

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Muslim-UK said:
No nor is the concept of the Trinity. Why not be consistent in your protests and stop believing everything not clearly mentioned in the Bible?
Click to expand...

I'm not protesting. I believe everything written in the Bible. I do not believe Mohammed was a prophet so I don't believe the Quran. So I reject what you said above because I don't believe it.

Furthermore, I accept the doctrine of the Trinity in spite of your opinion about it. I won't debate it, it is firm doctrine the way I see it, it has been firm doctrine since before Mohammed was born.

So we best terminate this little conversation since I won't hear your other opinions about it.
 
Muslim-UK

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
DavidFirth said:
Furthermore, I accept the doctrine of the Trinity in spite of your opinion about it. I won't debate it, it is firm doctrine the way I see it, it has been firm doctrine since before Mohammed was born.

So we best terminate this little conversation since I won't hear your other opinions about it.
Click to expand...

And say, "Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart." Qur'an 17:81

This is why on every point where Christianity and Islam differs, nature of God, Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection, the Islamic narrative makes sense, has backing from the true followers of Jesus pbuh and Christians increasingly become dissatisfied cultural Christians only.....

Just 800,000 worshippers attend a Church of England service on the average Sunday
  • Numbers in the pews have fallen to less than half the levels of the 1960s
  • Census evidence shows a widespread fall in allegiance to Christianity
  • Numbers of Christians has fallen more than four million in a decade
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2586596/Just-800-000-worshipers-attend-Church-England-service-average-Sunday.html
 
DavidFirth

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Muslim-UK said:
And say, "Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart." Qur'an 17:81

This is why on every point where Christianity and Islam differs, nature of God, Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection, the Islamic narrative makes sense, has backing from the true followers of Jesus pbuh and Christians increasingly become dissatisfied cultural Christians only.....

Just 800,000 worshippers attend a Church of England service on the average Sunday



    • Numbers in the pews have fallen to less than half the levels of the 1960s
    • Census evidence shows a widespread fall in allegiance to Christianity
    • Numbers of Christians has fallen more than four million in a decade
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2586596/Just-800-000-worshipers-attend-Church-England-service-average-Sunday.html
Click to expand...

Opinion noted. You finished yet or are you still hopelessly trying to convince me when I just told you that I don't wish to hear anything you have to say?
 
Redlucifer

Redlucifer

The Liberated
Hi there all,

Yes there is a devil. The demiurge or god of our matter world but he goes by many names. You can find it in the holy and sacret books available at many religions today. Lucifer is our true saviour not jesus. Lucifer brought the knowlegde of gnostic to this world. Jesus (wolf in sheep clothes)is for those who give away their free will to take the easy way!

I'm a true gnostic and not saying this to hurt or attack anyone. Just want to say what i think based on my own research! In my oppinion many are decieved so they never find the truth!
 
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