Luciferianism and mormonism....

[Ðanisty]

You've got a good point, and I have discussed this with Victor in some depth. If God is omniscient, He would have known what to expect from Adam and Eve. He wouldn't have allowed Satan to tempt them without knowing what would happen. If He had really wanted them to remain forever as they were when He placed them in the Garden, you've got to wonder why He set things up the way He did. Surely He wasn't so naive as to think they wouldn't fall for the Satan's sales pitch on how they could become gods.

Oh God probably did know that they would listen to the serpent. The whole thing was a trap. He put them in a garden, told them not to touch something then allowed them to do it anyway, knowing already that he was going to punish them for it and knowing he was going to sacrifice Jesus to fix it. The whole thing reminds me of the movie Saw or better yet, Cube.

Alternatively, if you want to believe God did not think they would listen to the snake and eat the fruit, you have to believe God to be extremely arrogant to the point of being blind.

 

[TashaN]

You've got a good point, and I have discussed this with Victor in some depth. If God is omniscient, He would have known what to expect from Adam and Eve. He wouldn't have allowed Satan to tempt them without knowing what would happen. If He had really wanted them to remain forever as they were when He placed them in the Garden, you've got to wonder why He set things up the way He did. Surely He wasn't so naive as to think they wouldn't fall for the Satan's sales pitch on how they could become gods.

As there is no offecial account in either luciferianism nor mormonism for why God let it happen, i would jump up in here to contribute with some thoughts of mine about this issue.

I believe that God knew what Adam and Eve will do, and it was an example for all human beings not to fall for Saitan. He then showed us the way on what to do if we fell for him by teaching Adam and Eve how to repent, and they did so, and God forgave them for he is all forgiving, and let them live on earth and their offspring till judgement day.

 

[Katzpur]

As there is no offecial account in either luciferianism nor mormonism for why God let it happen, i would jump up in here to contribute with some thoughts of mine about this issue.

Actually, there is an official statement in Mormonism on this subject. It comes from the Book of Mormon and says, "Adam fell that men might be. Men are that they might have joy."

 

[TashaN]

Actually, there is an official statement in Mormonism on this subject. It comes from the Book of Mormon and says, "Adam fell that men might be. Men are that they might have joy."

I'm talking about God, not Adam.

Why did God allow this to happen?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I'm talking about God, not Adam.

Why did God allow this to happen?

yeah... "adam fell that men might be" in otherword if God didnt allow it to happen - Adam wouldt have fell, and men wouldnt have been! Actually we wouldnt exist!

 

[Quiddity]

You've got a good point, and I have discussed this with Victor in some depth. If God is omniscient, He would have known what to expect from Adam and Eve. He wouldn't have allowed Satan to tempt them without knowing what would happen. If He had really wanted them to remain forever as they were when He placed them in the Garden, you've got to wonder why He set things up the way He did. Surely He wasn't so naive as to think they wouldn't fall for the Satan's sales pitch on how they could become gods.

What I don't get is why does God knowing imply that He wanted it to happen?

 

[Quiddity]

Oh God probably did know that they would listen to the serpent. The whole thing was a trap. He put them in a garden, told them not to touch something then allowed them to do it anyway, knowing already that he was going to punish them for it and knowing he was going to sacrifice Jesus to fix it. The whole thing reminds me of the movie Saw or better yet, Cube.

Alternatively, if you want to believe God did not think they would listen to the snake and eat the fruit, you have to believe God to be extremely arrogant to the point of being blind.

As I told Katz above, why does God knowing imply that is what He wanted?

 

[Darkness]

I enjoy the Gnostic opinion on the story of Adam and Eve. "God" placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden to keep a watch on them and to keep them in bondage. YHWH was afraid of Adam's (and Eve's) potential and decided to lock them up in ignorance; without the knowledge of good and evil. The serpent (Lucifer, if you will) came to free humanity from bondage.

The New Testament claims that God knew humanity was going to fall, but I feel it fails to realize that the God of the Old Testament is more of a tribal god than a spirit, cerebral God. YHWH shows many human characteristics and demonstrates that he is not all-knowing.

 

[MaddLlama]

Personally, I like Milton's take on the story better.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm talking about God, not Adam.

Why did God allow this to happen?

He wanted man to "be." We don't believe that Adam and Eve would have had children had they remained in a state of innocence. In other words, it was essential that Adam and Eve become fully mortal (i.e. able to die and able to procreate) in order for humanity to come into existence.

 

[Katzpur]

What I don't get is why does God knowing imply that He wanted it to happen?

If God hadn't wanted it to happen, He could have made it a lot less unlikely to have done than He did. With nothing to tempt them to eat the forbidden fruit, I can't think of a single reason they would have had to disobey Him. Instead, He allowed the one being who was absolutely determined to thwart His plan to offer them godhood in exchange for taking a single bite of fruit.

 

[Ðanisty]

Personally, I like Milton's take on the story better.

I've tried reading Paradise Lost a couple of times, but I'm just no good at reading epic poems...lol. Maybe I should pick up the Cliff's Notes or something.

 

[p_shift90]

I'm currently an inactive member of the LDS church (was baptized at the age of 12) and I've studied Luciferianism and even taken part in some of its practices. Any Luciferian out there will tell you that in their belief system, Lucifer and Satan are two entirely different concepts. With that said, let's seperate our ideas about "God" and "Lucifer" from their names. Instead of what's different, let's look at what's similar between the Mormon "God" and the Luciferian "Lucifer."

Mormon God:
-allowed the fall to take place, thus giving humans the opportunity to evolve spiritually
-bringer of knowledge and light
-gives his followers the gift of the holy ghost, through whom they can reach God for the purpose of gaining knowledge
-gives his followers spiritual gifts to aid themselves and others in mortal life
-teaches mankind the path to self-deification
-acknowledges that humans can reach his exalted state of being


Lucifer:
-caused the fall to take place
-bringer of knowledge and light
-through magickal inspiration, gives his followers divinatory tools for the purpose of gaining knowledge
-gives his followers magickal knowledge that aids them in mortal life
-teaches mankind the path to self-deification
-encourages humans to take part in practices that will allow them to transcend God's state of being

So if you take away all of the binding dogma and spiritual laws of Mormonism, and get rid of the negative connotations tied in with the name Lucifer, would it not seem that God and Lucifer were, and are perhaps still partners in aiding mankind to the realization of it's own potential to experience deification?

 

[EtuMalku]

Although this seemed to have been a dead thread, since it was revived I would like to point out something interesting from the Gnostic Gospels and the parallels of Lucifer with Jesus (aside from them both being referred to as the Morning Star which is another thread entirely)

-from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Testimonial of Truth
"the God whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is 'himself' one of the fallen angels, from whose tyranny Christ came to set human beings free.

TOT (3:4-5)
it reveals truth only when one reads it in reverse, recognizing that God is actually the villain, and the Serpent (Lucifer) the holy one

Reality of Rulers (Nag Hammadi)
"It is Samael and his fellow 'rulers' of the Darkness (Eph.6:12), not the true God, who formed Adam's physical body, set him to work in Paradise, "to till and cultivate it" then put him to sleep and fashioned his female partner out of his rib.

It is this God that commanded Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, which could open his eyes to the Truth.
When Adam & Eve, enlightened by the feminine spiritual principle who appeared to her in the form of the Serpent and deified them.

God threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that humankind might be occupied with worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the Holy Spirit / Higher-Self / HGA

 

[LittleNipper]

Although this seemed to have been a dead thread, since it was revived I would like to point out something interesting from the Gnostic Gospels and the parallels of Lucifer with Jesus (aside from them both being referred to as the Morning Star which is another thread entirely)

-from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Testimonial of Truth
"the God whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is 'himself' one of the fallen angels, from whose tyranny Christ came to set human beings free.

TOT (3:4-5)
it reveals truth only when one reads it in reverse, recognizing that God is actually the villain, and the Serpent (Lucifer) the holy one

Reality of Rulers (Nag Hammadi)
"It is Samael and his fellow 'rulers' of the Darkness (Eph.6:12), not the true God, who formed Adam's physical body, set him to work in Paradise, "to till and cultivate it" then put him to sleep and fashioned his female partner out of his rib.

It is this God that commanded Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, which could open his eyes to the Truth.
When Adam & Eve, enlightened by the feminine spiritual principle who appeared to her in the form of the Serpent and deified them.

God threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that humankind might be occupied with worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the Holy Spirit / Higher-Self / HGA

GOD is the CREATOR. HE allowed man to participate in that process by making him a gardener and let Adam name the animals. GOD didn't want a robot. GOD wanted man to choose to accept GOD's truth and not seek truth elsewhere but knew that would not be the case.

Man would learn from experience that he was capable of only repeating the very same mistakes over and over, again and again. Man would not be happier as he imagined. Man points his finger at GOD's creation (really blaming GOD) and accuses that for his choice. The man blames the woman and the woman the serpent being, who was under satanic control (since satan was/is the cherib GOD originally created to rule over the earth).

The serpent is reduced to eating dead things/dust. "For dust you are and to dust you will return."

GOD had already planned an out for the future generations. HE would redeem man HIMSELF, but ONLY if the individual places his faith in GOD and GOD alone and not imagine he can work his way back ----- essentually saying he is equal to GOD's task.

The one who does that is as lost as Adam who followed satan's path ----- to try to be GOD.

 

[EtuMalku]

You don't really believe there is a Satan do you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

OD is the CREATOR. HE allowed man to participate in that process by making him a gardener and let Adam name the animals. GOD didn't want a robot. GOD wanted man to choose to accept GOD's truth and not seek truth elsewhere but knew that would not be the case.

Man would learn from experience that he was capable of only repeating the very same mistakes over and over, again and again. Man would not be happier as he imagined. Man points his finger at GOD's creation (really blaming GOD) and accuses that for his choice. The man blames the woman and the woman the serpent being, who was under satanic control (since satan was/is the cherib GOD originally created to rule over the earth).

But this is just looking at the fall itself. Not the whys, which are probably more important the fall. Just looking at the fall, it is easy to paint Lucifer as the bad guy. But when you look into why it was done, Lucifer is transformed from an evil being into a heroic freedom fighter, who fought against all odds for what he knew was right.

 

[LittleNipper]

But this is just looking at the fall itself. Not the whys, which are probably more important the fall. Just looking at the fall, it is easy to paint Lucifer as the bad guy. But when you look into why it was done, Lucifer is transformed from an evil being into a heroic freedom fighter, who fought against all odds for what he knew was right.

He lied to Man. He wants to be worshipped. Lucifer fights against all odds to make himself GOD. He doesn't care anything for man. In fact, I believe he actually hates man. Read the book of JOB. He is the accuser.

 

[LittleNipper]

You don't really believe there is a Satan do you?

Yes, I do believe that satan exists as a created being who failed in an attempt to win the heavenly host over to worshipping him.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

He lied to Man. He wants to be worshipped. Lucifer fights against all odds to make himself GOD. He doesn't care anything for man. In fact, I believe he actually hates man. Read the book of JOB. He is the accuser.

Worshiping Satan or Lucifer goes against everything that Satanism, Luciferianism, and the LHP stand for. Lucifer caused the fall so we don't have to be slaves. He stood up against God, knowing what the consequences would be, so we could live freely and not be oppressed.