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Lula da Silva Defeats Jair Bolsonaro in Hard-Fought Election

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I think I'd rather see Centrists start to carve out a political presence that leaves the extremes out in the cold...just sayin'...:D


To do that, they need to start addressing the rapidly growing disparity between rich and poor, and to recognise that economies which fail to benefit whole populations, create societies which are inherently unstable.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To do that, they need to start addressing the rapidly growing disparity between rich and poor, and to recognise that economies which fail to benefit whole populations, create societies which are inherently unstable.
Is Lula "extreme?"
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Is Lula "extreme?"


I’ve no idea, don’t know much about him. Bolsonaro clearly is a dangerous right wing populist, so I’m relieved he’s been defeated. I was responding to a more general point about the polarisation of politics throughout the democratic world. The lesson from history is clear; people are easily manipulated, and drawn towards demagogues, when they feel insecure and abandoned.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I’ve no idea, don’t know much about him. Bolsonaro clearly is a dangerous right wing populist, so I’m relieved he’s been defeated.

You and me both.

I was responding to a more general point about the polarisation of politics throughout the democratic world. The lesson from history is clear; people are easily manipulated, and drawn towards demagogues, when they feel insecure and abandoned.
That is true enough.

To a very large extent, here as in Brexit Britain and MAGA USA, the polarization is rather one-sided and fed by widespread, unquestioning acceptance of wild, shameless lies on a regular basis.

We did not really have anything comparable to the British tabloids nor to FOX News here before Bolsonaro's presidential term, but we have it now. It is called "Jovem Pan". There are also more properly fringe media channels such as "Brasil Paralelo" and "Gazeta do Povo".

To the best of my understanding (and it is very unhealthy to try and understand a bolsonarista's mind) it all comes down to a bad need to avoid accepting change meeting outlets and social circles (I want to avoid using the word "bubble" too much) that reassure those people with authoritarian tendencies that they can, in fact, avoid accepting the reality of changes and challenges if they keep true to their fear, immaturity and submission to words of silly defiance and refusal to grow.

It is scary, and also deeply embarrassing. Because it is so transparently immature and so arrogantly set on devouring its own entrails.

Unfortunately, we are far from hearing the last of it. Quite on the contrary. Even the lulistas have not yet felt the full extent of the economic and political ravaging that Bolsonaro committed.

We will need decades to heal from it. Much will have to go through full, slow, reeking putrefaction and painful death for the healing to set in. In just a few years we lost sizeable, very significant chunks of our cultural ability, of our intellectual capability, of our industrial viability and of our ethical discernment.

It will get much worse before it gets better. It has to; the means for anything less painful to happen have been consumed by blind fear, ignorance and hatred.

I had never witnessed the decadence caused by fascism up close before, not even in the 1964-1985 regime, which did not go quite this far during my life. This is all news to me, and much worse than I ever feared could happen during my lifetime.

Far too many people flat out do not want to live in a democratic society anymore, and seem to have lost the ability to make the attempt outright. We have degenerated into a community where savages want to be accepted and recognized as if they were the civilized people that they gave up on being.

Truly, it is a clash of worldviews that will leave deep, lasting, painful scars resulting from the grieving reversal of authoritarianism. And that is the best case scenario.

Ultimately, Bolsonaro was the manifestation and painful symptom of much deeper, graver illnesses. There was never a short supply of whacko madmen in our politics (or most any other). But voters and other citizens didn't always give them any attention.

We do not suffer too much from bad leaders, which exist aplenty and always have and always will; we suffer atrociously from bad citizens, which have gained way too many numbers and way too much confused enthusiasm.
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This is incorrect. Lula was not the first post-military junta President, or even came particularly soon in the list. There were four others before him: Sarney, Collor, Itamar and FHC. That is leaving aside Tancredo Neves, who was elected by never served due to a sudden illness from which he never recovered.

List of presidents of Brazil - Wikipedia

Also, while the 1964-1985 regime was very questionable indeed, in some respects Bolsonaro exceeded their faults by impressive margins. He is both more corrupt and more autocratic than any of the military presidents ever attempted to be. Arguably, than any ruler in known Brazilian history, even the Monarchs.

He is certainly the most destructive in living memory.
Thanks for straightening that information. Brazil is important and what happens to you, Luis, is also important to me.

Tancredo Neves 1985 MDB
José Sarney 1985-1990 MDB
Fernando Color de Mello 1989-1990 AGIR
Itamar Franco 1992-1994 MDB
Fernando Henrique Cardoso 1995-2002 PSDB
Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva 2003-2010 PT
Dilma Rousseff 2011-2016 PT
Michel Temer 2016-2018 MDB
Jair Boisonaro 2019-2022 PSL,PL,independent
Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva re-elected supported by the PT party His service begins this January in 2023

Al Jazeera says Lula da Silva handily wins the debate.

One year ago:

In this video The Economist alleges several things: Bolsanaro is homophobic, mishandles the coronavirus epidemic, imitates the US President Trump in many ways, allows destruction of the rainforest, stops the Lava Jato (Carwash investigation) to protect his sons from incrimination, and his government's stimulus is ended which initially helps raise people from poverty. He also wants to allow citizens to have guns. The Economist says the military may soon need to choose between Bolsanaro and Democracy but does not explain why this is. It also says he may soon be impeached but does not specifically state why he may be impeached. Bolsanaro has many strong supporters because of his right wing stance, and this worries The Economist.

More recently Bloomberg reports that Bolsanaro has lost the election but has not conceded. The Speaker of the House has said that he must concede. Bloomberg also says that Bolsanar has stoked fears about the nation's electronic voting system.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Bolsonaro hasn't spoken in public since the election results came.

Pretty much everyone else has.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
That does not sound very likely at all.

If anything, I suspect and fear that Lula will simply not find a lot of room to make significant changes. Bolsonaro has damaged our institutions something fierce.
You know more than I do.

Looking at his campaign he seems to have run on a fairly moderate platform.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
[/SPOILER]

More recently Bloomberg reports that Bolsanaro has lost the election but has not conceded. The Speaker of the House has said that he must concede. Bloomberg also says that Bolsanar has stoked fears about the nation's electronic voting system.

He must have been talking to our departed leader.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I have come to believe that what may seem a given to some voters will not necessarily be so to others. A fascist promising a subset of struggling people relief, falsely or not, sometimes has intense appeal to them and, consequently, powerful electoral presence. Such seems to be the lifeblood of populism nowadays.

I hope the left wing in Brazil and other countries studies and addresses the reasons for this appeal more deeply and manages to win over voters who may buy into false promises despite having potential to be swayed either way.

I would say that overall the left wing in Brazil already does know what is appealing about Bolsonaro. The tricky part is being able to address it...

It had very little to do with promises since neither side promised much...

It revolved around:

1) Fear of Brazil becoming another massive left-wing failure like Venezuela.

2) Bolsonaro deepened his connection with evangelical churches and championed anti-abortion and anti-transgender agenda (so called traditional values).

3) Anti-Lula sentiment. Lula was in jail back in 2018. And according to our laws, he shouldn't be able to run in any election for many years... if it wasn't for the fact his judgment was nullified... For reasons that many of us don't agree with. Yet, he keeps claiming he is innocent.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
This is incorrect. Lula was not the first post-military junta President, or even came particularly soon in the list. There were four others before him: Sarney, Collor, Itamar and FHC. That is leaving aside Tancredo Neves, who was elected by never served due to a sudden illness from which he never recovered.

List of presidents of Brazil - Wikipedia

Also, while the 1964-1985 regime was very questionable indeed, in some respects Bolsonaro exceeded their faults by impressive margins. He is both more corrupt and more autocratic than any of the military presidents ever attempted to be. Arguably, than any ruler in known Brazilian history, even the Monarchs.

He is certainly the most destructive in living memory.

More corrupt than the dictators? Maybe. There is no way to know.

More autocratic? Hell no. If anything, he is one of the most powerless presidents we ever had in Brazil. The Supreme Court effecfively opposed many of his moves and he had to make deals, giving away power, with the legislative branch to have political support.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Is Lula "extreme?"

I’ve no idea, don’t know much about him. Bolsonaro clearly is a dangerous right wing populist, so I’m relieved he’s been defeated. I was responding to a more general point about the polarisation of politics throughout the democratic world. The lesson from history is clear; people are easily manipulated, and drawn towards demagogues, when they feel insecure and abandoned.

Hardly.

The caricature of him that is believed to be the genuine article among many in the right here, though, is.

I agree with Luis here.
Lula has never been part of the extreme.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
More corrupt than the dictators? Maybe. There is no way to know.

What do you mean? We know plenty well already. It has been 37 years since 1985, and we know full well about the budget draftsperson ammendments already.

Bolsonaro is hands down the most corrupt ruler we have had since at least the Monarchies.

More autocratic? Hell no. If anything, he is one of the most powerless presidents we ever had in Brazil. The Supreme Court effecfively opposed many of his moves and he had to make deals, giving away power, with the legislative branch to have political support.
Spare me from that BS, will you? I honestly have no time WHATSOEVER for that. It is a shameful line to lend any prestige to.

Are you honestly not aware of how casually he fired police department chiefs in order to scare people away from his tracks, for instance?

To say nothing of the Health and Education ministries scandals? Just to mention two obvious examples out of the top of my head.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I would say that overall the left wing in Brazil already does know what is appealing about Bolsonaro. The tricky part is being able to address it...

It had very little to do with promises since neither side promised much...

It revolved around:

1) Fear of Brazil becoming another massive left-wing failure like Venezuela.

2) Bolsonaro deepened his connection with evangelical churches and championed anti-abortion and anti-transgender agenda (so called traditional values).

3) Anti-Lula sentiment. Lula was in jail back in 2018. And according to our laws, he shouldn't be able to run in any election for many years... if it wasn't for the fact his judgment was nullified... For reasons that many of us don't agree with. Yet, he keeps claiming he is innocent.
The 2018 judgement has been revealed to be fatally flawed, mainly due to abuse of power from Judge Moro and a few others.

There is no sane basis for "disagreeing" with the nullification.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Sorry. I am no fan of Lula and I only rarely ever voted for the Worker's Party, but you are being extremely unfair here.

Not at all.
Lula portrays himself as innocent, falsely accused of crimes. The classic victim card. But he is deeply involved in corruption scandals.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
What do you mean? We know plenty well already. It has been 37 years since 1985, and we know full well about the budget draftsperson ammendments already.

Bolsonaro is hands down the most corrupt ruler we have had since at least the Monarchies.


Spare me from that BS, will you? I honestly have no time WHATSOEVER for that. It is a shameful line to lend any prestige to.

Are you honestly not aware of how casually he fired police department chiefs in order to scare people away from his tracks, for instance?

To say nothing of the Health and Education ministries scandals? Just to mention two obvious examples out of the top of my head.

Do the words 'Petrolão' and 'Mensalão' ring any bells? What about JBS and Odrebrecht?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The 2018 judgement has been revealed to be fatally flawed, mainly due to abuse of power from Judge Moro and a few others.

There is no sane basis for "disagreeing" with the nullification.

I think I should explain this to other readers:

It is quite difficult to condemn powerful and influent people. A very simple example to americans is Al Capone. He was a gang boss, that only managed to get convicted for tax evasion.

Likewise, Lula was condemned for receiving an apartment from a contractor in exchange for illegal favors, rather than for direct involvement in the major corruption scandals. He appealed to no avail. Guilty as charged. Later on though, after he went to jail for quite some time, the Supreme Court declared there were two problems here: (1) Lula should have been judged elsewhere, in another court, given their interpretation of the law. And (2) the first judge was partial, rather than impartial to the point he actually helped the accusatory team (I don't know how it is called in the USA). For those reasons the judgment was nullified, and since there is a specific time limit to restart the whole process, Lula can no longer be judged for that crime. There is however no shadow of doubt he is guilty, the proofs are solid and never considered weak by the courts.

In other words, if you vale truth there is a quite significant reason to want Lula to be condemned.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Not at all.
Lula portrays himself as innocent, falsely accused of crimes. The classic victim card. But he is deeply involved in corruption scandals.
That is probably true, although it requires evidence and a non-delinquent judgement to be established.

You are still being grossly unfair towards Lula. It is shocking really.
 
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