Macho men on the decline

[Thanda]

I find it interesting how readily people denigrate masculinity, "manliness" and testosterone. On this thread alone people seemed to be falling over themselves to show how little they thought of masculinity etc. all the while high-fiving each other for it. Then, on this very thread something is brought up about how insensitive someone was because they weren't that nice about fat people. And it appears that the very same people who have no trouble glorying in the death or marginalisation of masculinity are the biggest advocate of "don't judge overweight people". I do really wonder whether we really make enough time to reflect on the consistency of our views and opinions.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Your posting history suggests otherwise.

I disagree that a person's posting history is inherently correlated with their actual personality and lifestyle.

If you really can't see the distinction between those two realms of existence, I really can't do anything other than feel sorry for you.

 

[lovesong]

I find it interesting how readily people denigrate masculinity, "manliness" and testosterone. On this thread alone people seemed to be falling over themselves to show how little they thought of masculinity etc. all the while high-fiving each other for it. Then, on this very thread something is brought up about how insensitive someone was because they weren't that nice about fat people. And it appears that the very same people who have no trouble glorying in the death or marginalisation of masculinity are the biggest advocate of "don't judge overweight people". I do really wonder whether we really make enough time to reflect on the consistency of our views and opinions.

There is quite a big difference here. Those saying they aren't a fan of hyper-masculinity are saying just that, that they aren't a fan. For myself, I simply stated that I believe too much testosterone can lead to traits I personally don't like. The person looking down on overweight people claimed that they are objectively ugly, always, that they should feel ashamed of themselves, and that anyone who is attracted to them is pathetic. I never have, and never would say these things. I personally am not attracted to hyper-masculinity and big muscles, but I don't say those men are shameful people, and I certainly don't think less of people who find it attractive. In fact the popularity of those traits is better for me, as it means there's less people chasing the kind of men I like. I don't shame people for what they're into, and I don't shame people for how they look, I was simply stating my preference for a certain type of person, something we're all entitled to do, the difference is that I never degraded those who don't share those preferences.

 

[lovesong]

I disagree that a person's posting history is inherently correlated with their actual personality and lifestyle.

If you really can't see the distinction between those two realms of existence, I really can't do anything other than feel sorry for you.

Your personal life outside the forum does not matter on the forum. The only thing that matters here is how you act here. You may be a saint in the real world but if you come to an online community and act in a way that the members of that community look down on, what else are they to do but judge you accordingly. Whether you stand by your posts or not, the fact that you wrote and posted those things does say a lot about you, and if you said them without ever meaning them, that says a lot too. What you post on a forum does get tied to you, what you say does represent you, whether you want it to or not.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Your personal life outside the forum does not matter on the forum. The only thing that matters here is how you act here. You may be a saint in the real world but if you come to an online community and act in a way that the members of that community look down on, what else are they to do but judge you accordingly. Regardless of the validity or truth of your statements, what you post on a forum gets tied to you, what you say does represent you, whether you want it to or not.

I'm not disputing that, but to imply that it exceeds the online community and reflects a poster's deeper character and personality is an obnoxious thing to suggest.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

There is quite a big difference here.

Not really. And Thanda's essentially summed up the irony I alluded to in my initial post here: it boils down to the consistency of our views and opinions expressed.

It's an issue that is inherently binary: either it's okay to state one's preferences, values and opinions or it's completely not appropriate to do so at all. I'd say that an internet forum (or, indeed any forum) is one that accommodates that former.

I'd suggest that you simply get over an incident that I thought had been resolved, involving my own admission of fault and correction of it.

 

[lovesong]

I'm not disputing that, but to imply that it exceeds the online community and reflects a poster's deeper character and personality is an obnoxious thing to suggest.

The fact that a person thinks up a thing, writes that thing, posts it, and defends it would only suggest that they believe that thing, and the things a person believes and the ways they present them are at the very core of personality. But this really is a silly thing to be arguing over. In the end it doesn't matter who you are or who I am or what we're like here, there, or anywhere else. What matters are the things said, and we've all seen plenty.

 

[Thanda]

There is quite a big difference here. Those saying they aren't a fan of hyper-masculinity are saying just that, that they aren't a fan. For myself, I simply stated that I believe too much testosterone can lead to traits I personally don't like. The person looking down on overweight people claimed that they are objectively ugly, always, that they should feel ashamed of themselves, and that anyone who is attracted to them is pathetic. I never have, and never would say these things. I personally am not attracted to hyper-masculinity and big muscles, but I don't say those men are shameful people, and I certainly don't think less of people who find it attractive. In fact the popularity of those traits is better for me, as it means there's less people chasing the kind of men I like. I don't shame people for what they're into, and I don't shame people for how they look, I was simply stating my preference for a certain type of person, something we're all entitled to do, the difference is that I never degraded those who don't share those preferences.

Read your post again

Those macho jerks are overrated anyway. Too much testosterone can completely ruin a guy. Don't get me wrong, testosterone is a wonderful thing, it powers men's sex drives and fuels their dominance, but too much of it can be the difference between the caring, nurturing, understanding sweetheart and the overbearing, insensitive, careless musslehead.​

Firstly you called Macho people jerks and mussleheads(sic) - no difference with calling a overweight person a fatty or pig. Secondly NOWHERE in this post did you remotely intimate that what you were saying was only your personal opinion. For example your second sentence should have read "Too much testosterone can completely ruin a guy [for me]" if you wanted it to be understood as a personal preference and not a objective fact. Now of course I'm clever enough to know that every thing you said in that post was not an objective fact because I know there is no way you would know that for sure. But similarly there is no reason why you should assume anything any poster, including Timothy, says is an objective fact or is meant as an objective fact unless they site reputable sources for their claims.

All I am pointing to here is the double standard. Everyone seems to have their holy cows (no offence to Hindus) and they don't mind being loose with their tongues until the topic is about one of their personal holy cows.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm not disputing that, but to imply that it exceeds the online community and reflects a poster's deeper character and personality is an obnoxious thing to suggest.

We are judged by our actions and words. There aren't many actions to judge in an online forum, leaving us nothing more than your words, and those you "side" with.

 

[Revoltingest]

Studies indicate that men's testosterone levels have declined by about 50 percent since the 1950s. In other words, your grandfather probably had twice the testosterone you have!

Macho men on the decline - Rocket Science - Northwest Military - Home of The Ranger, NW Airlifter & Weekly Volcano

Testestrone.....I vaguely remember having some long ago.
Good stuff!

 

[Thanda]

We are judged by our actions and words. There aren't many actions to judge in an online forum, leaving us nothing more than your words, and those you "side" with.

We are also judged by our appearance (we really are) - and there is equally the excuse that we don't have words or actions to go on with most people we come across in life. But I gathered from the obesity thread that you didn't much like the idea of someone judging someone's character using incomplete facts like appearance.

 

[Nietzsche]

Read your post again

Those macho jerks are overrated anyway. Too much testosterone can completely ruin a guy. Don't get me wrong, testosterone is a wonderful thing, it powers men's sex drives and fuels their dominance, but too much of it can be the difference between the caring, nurturing, understanding sweetheart and the overbearing, insensitive, careless musslehead.​

Firstly you called Macho people jerks and mussleheads(sic) -.

Playing devil's advocate;

That's undoubtedly a type of person that a number of people are attracted to.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But I gathered from the obesity thread that you didn't much like the idea of someone judging someone's character using incomplete facts like appearance.

That would be correct. However, myself, I consider appearance to largely be an action. Of course people can't choose height or hair color (well, normally anyways, for the sake of this example), but people can be very minimal in their appearance, or they can put much time and effort into it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Playing devil's advocate;

That's undoubtedly a type of person that a number of people are attracted to.

The type of person that only someone who can't get better would be attracted to.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

The fact that a person thinks up a thing, writes that thing, posts it, and defends it would only suggest that they believe that thing, and the things a person believes and the ways they present them are at the very core of personality.

This, I do disagree with profusely.

An account on an internet forum can accommodate various angles and methods which can be used to derive information, facilitate/construct ideas and stimulate discussion with the sole purpose of an individual doing little more than honing their own opinions, values and beliefs about the world.

This is exactly why I make the point that a persona on an online community is a far cry from the totality of an individual's life and, in the event that it isn't: it's really quite a sad disposition for someone to have.

 

[lovesong]

Not really. And Thanda's essentially summed up the irony I alluded to in my initial post here: it boils down to the consistency of our views and opinions expressed.

It's an issue that is inherently binary: either it's okay to state one's preferences, values and opinions or it's completely not appropriate to do so at all. I'd say that an internet forum (or, indeed any forum) is one that accommodates that former.

I'd suggest that you simply get over an incident that I thought had been resolved, involving my own admission of fault and correction of it.

It's fine to state our views and beliefs and opinions, but the forum, and common decency, prohibits us from extending beyond base opinions (I think XYZ is/is not attractive) to the belittling and dehumanizing of others (anyone who does/does not like XYZ or is/is not XYZ is shameful and pathetic). Thanda sought to point out that our approaches are the same, and I sought to point out the differences. If you still cannot see them, I'm sorry, and I am done with this thread, it's getting rather tedious, and we're both taking it off topic. I'll reply to the other thread when I get the time.

@Thanda, even so I did not say that those people are disgusting, that they should feel ashamed of themselves, or that anyone who likes them is pathetic. No matter how you slice my post I did not say those things. I also did not say that all people are any one thing, such as all hyper-masculine people have negative traits (note the "can" not "always does" language, if you really want to take it to word analysis), and I did not say they could never be attractive, but that one thing can lead to another. The other thread, on the other hand, said all of these things, at times to the letter. Now like I said above, I'm done derailing the thread to argue with people who can't spot the difference, the horse is dead and I'm tired of beating it.

 

[Thanda]

That would be correct. However, myself, I consider appearance to largely be an action. Of course people can't choose height or hair color (well, normally anyways, for the sake of this example), but people can be very minimal in their appearance, or they can put much time and effort into it.

Meaning you feel it is legitimate for someone would judge fat people as lazy?

 

[Timothy Bryce]

It's fine to state our views and beliefs and opinions, but the forum, and common decency, prohibits us from extending beyond base opinions (I think XYZ is/is not attractive) to the belittling and dehumanizing of others (anyone who does/does not like XYZ or is/is not XYZ is shameful and pathetic). Thanda sought to point out that our approaches are the same, and I sought to point out the differences. If you still cannot see them, I'm sorry, and I am done with this thread, it's getting rather tedious, and we're both taking it off topic. I'll reply to the other thread when I get the time.

@Thanda, even so I did not say that those people are disgusting, that they should feel ashamed of themselves, or that anyone who likes them is pathetic. No matter how you slice my post I did not say those things. I also did not say that all people are any one thing, such as all hyper-masculine people have negative traits (note the "can" not "always does" language, if you really want to take it to word analysis), and I did not say they could never be attractive, but that one thing can lead to another. The other thread, on the other hand, said all of these things, at times to the letter. Now like I said above, I'm done derailing the thread to argue with people who can't spot the difference, the horse is dead and I'm tired of beating it.

Takin' the ball and goin' home lol.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Meaning you feel it is legitimate for someone would judge fat people as lazy?

No. To judge them as lazy would require a judgement that lacks those "incomplete facts" you mentioned.

 

[Thanda]

@Thanda, even so I did not say that those people are disgusting, that they should feel ashamed of themselves, or that anyone who likes them is pathetic. No matter how you slice my post I did not say those things. I also did not say that all people are any one thing, such as all hyper-masculine people have negative traits (note the "can" not "always does" language, if you really want to take it to word analysis), and I did not say they could never be attractive, but that one thing can lead to another. The other thread, on the other hand, said all of these things, at times to the letter. Now like I said above, I'm done derailing the thread to argue with people who can't spot the difference, the horse is dead and I'm tired of beating it.

For some odd reason you've decided that calling people muscle-heads is okay while calling fat people disgusting is off limits. Why is that? Is it because you are not personally affected by the terms muscle-head and jerk?

On what basis for example did you state that "too much testosterone can completely ruin a guy"? What is "right" level of testosterone? And does a guy not being to your liking mean he is ruined?

Face it lovesong, you were completely happy to make sweeping derogatory judgements about a group of men in this thread while on another topic about something that personally affects you you suddenly see the value of decency. It is double standards plain and simple.