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"Make Rape Legal" Men's Group Plans Events in 43 Countries for Saturday

Do you think we should teach men not to rape?


  • Total voters
    36

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Yeah like keeping an arm's length away from guys and firmly saying no. /sarcasm

How about any of the following

"don't get so drunk that you have no idea where you are" or
"don't walk home alone late at night, especially if you've been drinking" or
"don't leave a drink unattended at a party"

There are probably more but I think I've made my point.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Westy, these are common knowledge things that people living in safe places forget when they're at a party. In some cities such behavior used to be almost completely safe until recently. Same as leaving your handbag unattended. When you live in a dangerous place you learn the new rules obviously.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Also supporting preventive measures isn't victim blaming.

I would agree with you if you had qualified your statement to say that supporting preventive measures isn't "necessarily" or "isn't always" victim blaming. But I've too often heard people point out "how someone could have avoided being raped" in such a way as to lessen or even dismiss the crime against them to believe that supporting preventive measures is always done out of a genuine interest in the well being of women.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
I would agree with you if you had qualified your statement to say that supporting preventive measures isn't "necessarily" or "isn't always" victim blaming. But I've too often heard people point out "how someone could have avoided being raped" in such a way as to lessen or even dismiss the crime against them to believe that supporting preventive measures is always done out of a genuine interest in the well being of women.

I see your point so I'll expand my statement.

Supporting preventive measures isn't victim blaming, but believing that a victim is to blame for not doing "x" is victim blaming.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
The rapists themselves often make excuses like "she wasn't resisting enough", "she said no, but she meant yes" or "if she didn't want to get raped or killed" she should have done something that turned off the rapist.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Believing this guy to be representative of MRA's would be like taking radical feminists to be representative of feminism. Also supporting preventive measures isn't victim blaming.

1) Radical feminists are a welcome subset of the feminist movement. I don't think anyone should demonize or shun them just because of fringe elements.

2) Most "preventive measures" for rape as well as calls for women to "act responsibly" in order to avoid rape amount to blaming the victim. Mentalities like those quoted in the OP exemplify the mindset that usually underlies such rhetoric.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
The rapists themselves often make excuses like "she wasn't resisting enough", "she said no, but she meant yes" or "if she didn't want to get raped or killed" she should have done something that turned off the rapist.

People who have knowingly committed a crime will come up with all sorts of excuses. Disgusting really.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
1) Radical feminists are a welcome subset of the feminist movement. I don't think anyone should demonize or shun them just because of fringe elements.

I wouldn't welcome any radical group. Especially if they believe in ideas like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto.

2) Most "preventive measures" for rape as well as calls for women to "act responsibly" in order to avoid rape amount to blaming the victim. Mentalities like those quoted in the OP exemplify the mindset that usually underlies such rhetoric.

I disagree completely. If a person knows that an act is wrong but does it anyway then they are 100% to blame, even if the victim didn't follow all the possible prevention measures.
 

RRex

Active Member
Premium Member
Reply to Sunstone -

Do you think men who hate women represent a significant number of men in the Men's Rights Movement?

I don't know, but a "Men's Rights Movement" makes me wonder.

What do you think is the ratio of such men in the Men's Rights Movement to men in the Movement who do not hate women?

I don't know.

Do you think women who hate men represent a significant number of women in the Feminist Movement?

Yes, I've seen the hostility. I believe it's a large part of the reason men are now so feminized instead of masculine as they used to be.

What do you think is the ratio of such women in the Feminist Movement to women in the Movement who do not hate men?

I couldn't say.

[Source]

Do you agree with Valizadeh that, "by attempting to teach men not to rape, what we have actually done is teach women not to care about being raped, not to protect themselves from easily preventable acts, and not to take responsibility for their actions"?

This is tripe. History has shown that we have to go out of our way to teach men of certain populations what is right and what is wrong.

It's disgusting really, but there it is.

This person's statement is completely illogical.


Do you think we should teach men not to rape?

Yes, especially if they come from a culture of rape.

[Further Reading]
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
People who have knowingly committed a crime will come up with all sorts of excuses. Disgusting really.
Right, and often what they say is the same as the "advice" even when it didn't help the victim when used against them.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Right, and often what they say is the same as the "advice" even when it didn't help the victim when used against them.

The sad truth of the matter is regardless of the number of prevention tips you follow, your chance of getting raped will never be zero.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I wouldn't welcome any radical group. Especially if they believe in ideas like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto.

Like I said, I don't think anyone should demonize radical feminists as a whole because of such fringe elements.

I know a very nice radical feminist who attends radical feminist meetings. She certainly hasn't told me to strangle myself with my penis yet. :p

I disagree completely. If a person knows that an act is wrong but does it anyway then they are 100% to blame, even if the victim didn't follow all the possible prevention measures.

We mostly agree here, but let me elaborate on something: it seems to me that preventive measures are different from countermeasures. The former, as their name implies, are supposed to prevent the crime from being committed in the first place. The latter are designed to counter the crime once it has already been attempted. There is a subtle but substantial difference between the two.

So, for example, encouraging young women to learn a martial art to defend themselves is a countermeasure--it is supposed to fend off the assailant who has already attempted the crime. Since the assailant has no idea beforehand that the woman knows a martial art, the fact that she does will not prevent him from attempting the crime. Instead, it will stop him in his tracks once he has launched his assault.

On the other hand, sitting at home all the time and avoiding any contact with men whatsoever is a preventive measure--a ridiculously unrealistic and oppressive one, since it is impossible for a woman to never leave her home or avoid any and all instances of being in the same place as men. Other commonly espoused "preventive measures" include abiding by certain dress codes, avoiding any friendly contact with men, and gender segregation in public transportion, at work, malls (Saudi Arabia has gender-segregated malls, for example), etc.

The difference between preventive measures and countermeasures is that the former are usually either so unrealistic and oppressive as to be ridiculous or based on myths and untested opinions, whereas the latter actually acknowledge the fact that pretty much nothing will prevent an assailant from attempting his crime when he sees a woman. It's not like a rapist thinks, "Oh, this lady is dressing modestly and acting appropriately. I'm not going to touch her." Only a good knocking out and prison sentence will teach him to think twice about assaulting anyone again.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
The sad truth of the matter is regardless of the number of prevention tips you follow, your chance of getting raped will never be zero.
Same goes for becoming a burglary victim. You might have a dozen locks on your door and cameras watching every inch of your house, but it doesn't help if someone comes through a window.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I wouldn't welcome any radical group. Especially if they believe in ideas like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto.

[Valerie] Solanas organized "a public forum on SCUM .... [at which] [a]bout 40 people[,] .... [m]ostly men ... [she characterized as] 'creeps' [and] '[m]asochists'", showed up;[110] SCUM had no members beside her.[49] According to Greer, "little evidence [existed] that S.C.U.M. ever functioned" other than as Solanas.[111]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto#cite_note-112
[Source]

You might have picked a man-hating "organization" with more than one member.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
Same goes for becoming a burglary victim. You might have a dozen locks on your door and cameras watching every inch of your house, but it doesn't help if someone comes through a window.

Exactly, but even if you were to have no security measures and you were to leave your front door wide open. The burglar is still entirely responsible for his/ her own actions. You may be responsible for not closing and locking your door but that doesn't make the burglar any less responsible for his/ her actions.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I wouldn't welcome any radical group. Especially if they believe in ideas like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto.
You know that pretty much no one takes that book seriously, right? Valerie Solanas was very mentally ill and she tried to murder Andy Warhol.

To be honest, a lot of the most vitriolic 2nd wave radfems had a history of abuse from childhood on, including being raped, so their political activism should be viewed in light of that. Many of them were abuse victims who never healed and projected their negative experiences onto men and heterosexuality as a whole.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
[Source]

You might have picked a man-hating "organization" with more than one member.

I highly doubt that she's the only person who believes in that manifesto. Sure the numbers will be small but we're comparing fringe radicals. The point is that SCUM is unrepresentative of feminism just like this guy/ group is unrepresentative of MRAs
 
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