"Make Rape Legal" Men's Group Plans Events in 43 Countries for Saturday

[9Westy9]

Like I said, I don't think anyone should demonize radical feminists as a whole because of such fringe elements.

I know a very nice radical feminist who attends radical feminist meetings. She certainly hasn't told me to strangle myself with my penis yet.

So to bring this back full circle, do you believe that the man/ group in the OP are representative of MRAs?

We mostly agree here, but let me elaborate on something: it seems to me that preventive measures are different from countermeasures. The former, as their name implies, are supposed to prevent the crime from being committed in the first place. The latter are designed to counter the crime once it has already been attempted. There is a subtle but substantial difference between the two.

So, for example, encouraging young women to learn a martial art to defend themselves is a countermeasure--it is supposed to fend off the assailant who has already attempted the crime. Since the assailant has no idea beforehand that the woman knows a martial art, the fact that she does will not prevent him from attempting the crime. Instead, it will stop him in his tracks once he has launched his assault.

On the other hand, sitting at home all the time and avoiding any contact with men whatsoever is a preventive measure--a ridiculously unrealistic and oppressive one, since it is impossible for a woman to never leave her home or avoid any and all instances of being in the same place as men. Other commonly espoused "preventive measures" include abiding by certain dress codes, avoiding any friendly contact with men, and gender segregation in public transportion, at work, malls (Saudi Arabia has gender-segregated malls, for example), etc.

The difference between preventive measures and countermeasures is that the former are usually either so unrealistic and oppressive as to be ridiculous or based on myths and untested opinions, whereas the latter actually acknowledge the fact that pretty much nothing will prevent an assailant from attempting his crime when he sees a woman. It's not like a rapist thinks, "Oh, this lady is dressing modestly and acting appropriately. I'm not going to touch her." Only a good knocking out and prison sentence will teach him to think twice about assaulting anyone again.

I agree, some "preventive measures" are ridiculous whilst some are considerably more reasonable.

 

[Sunstone]

The point is that SCUM is unrepresentative of feminism just like this guy/ group is unrepresentative of MRAs

Granted. And yet one routinely sees all or almost all feminists characterized as man-hating feminazis.

 

[Debater Slayer]

So to bring this back full circle, do you believe that the man/ group in the OP are representative of MRAs?

Unlike the examples I have seen of feminism, most of the examples of MRAs that I have seen are misogynistic and focused on how evil women and feminism are instead of promoting men's rights. I have been hoping to find good examples of prominent men's rights groups, but I have yet to find any. So yes, as things stand, I believe that the "men's rights" group mentioned in the OP is representative of a large portion of MRAs.

 

[9Westy9]

Granted. And yet one routinely sees all or almost all feminists characterized as man-hating feminazis.

and MRA's are routinely characterised as misogynists

 

[9Westy9]

Unlike the examples I have seen of feminism, most of the examples of MRAs that I have seen are misogynistic and focused on how evil women and feminism are instead of promoting men's rights. I have been hoping to find good examples of prominent men's rights groups, but I have yet to find any. So yes, as things stand, I believe that the "men's rights" group mentioned in the OP is representative of a large portion of MRAs.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point then.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Unlike the examples I have seen of feminism, most of the examples of MRAs that I have seen are misogynistic and focused on how evil women and feminism are instead of promoting men's rights. I have been hoping to find good examples of prominent men's rights groups, but I have yet to find any. So yes, as things stand, I believe that the "men's rights" group mentioned in the OP is representative of a large portion of MRAs.

That's true, sadly. I do think that men and boys have very important issues that need attention, but I'm not seeing that from the MRAs. I read those sites at times and it's extremely disappointing. This is coming from a person who would be open to being a part of a men's movement, too.

 

[Sunstone]

and MRA's are routinely characterised as misogynists

It's my impression that feminists are far and away attacked more in the public square than MRAs. Perhaps that is only because their movement is bigger -- or perhaps there are other reasons as well. But I do note the difference.

 

[RRex]

To be honest, a lot of the most vitriolic 2nd wave radfems had a history of abuse from childhood on, including being raped, so their political activism should be viewed in light of that. Many of them were abuse victims who never healed and projected their negative experiences onto men and heterosexuality as a whole.

Agreed, but that does not excuse nasty behavior.

It's my impression that feminists are far and away attacked more in the public square than MRAs. Perhaps that is only because their movement is bigger -- or perhaps there are other reasons as well. But I do note the difference.

As a woman I can say this -

There is something very ugly about a radicalized woman. That they are vehemently attacked does not surprise me and I do not feel bad for them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Agreed, but that does not excuse nasty behavior.

No, it doesn't but at least it can make it easier to understand where they are coming from.

 

[Akivah]

The sad truth of the matter is regardless of the number of prevention tips you follow, your chance of getting raped will never be zero.

This is the same as any other crime.

 

[RRex]

No, it doesn't but at least it can make it easier to understand where they are coming from.

I was beaten and psychologically abused as a child, but I don't take it out on everyone around me.

Decent people bear their individual burdens in silence and work to make things better.

I'm old and I realize this is an old-fashioned attitude. My generation didn't whine. We kept things to ourselves. It was/is considered good manners.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you think men who hate women represent a significant number of men in the Men's Rights Movement?

I wish I knew. I hope not, but I have little idea.

What do you think is the ratio of such men in the Men's Rights Movement to men in the Movement who do not hate women?

Not at all sure.

Do you think women who hate men represent a significant number of women in the Feminist Movement?

I would expect some to exist, if only because there is so much abuse to fuel such an attitude. Still, probably not "a significant number".

What do you think is the ratio of such women in the Feminist Movement to women in the Movement who do not hate men?

About 10% or so. Perhaps much less.

Do you agree with Valizadeh that, "by attempting to teach men not to rape, what we have actually done is teach women not to care about being raped, not to protect themselves from easily preventable acts, and not to take responsibility for their actions"?

Heck no. I think that is an obnoxious, disgusting and unfair thing to even think, let alone say aloud.

Do you think we should teach men not to rape?

Sure. Not necessarily as a separate subject matter of its own, but in some way.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was beaten and psychologically abused as a child, but I don't take it out on everyone around me.

Decent people bear their individual burdens in silence and work to make things better.

I'm old and I realize this is an old-fashioned attitude. My generation didn't whine. We kept things to ourselves. It was/is considered good manners.

I was physically and emotionally abused for years and my silence was a prison that I suffered alone in.

 

[Mycroft]

"supporting preventive measures is not victim-blaming."

Wouldn't it depend on the kind of measures you support? Like, when they had those sex attacks in Cologne, people blasted the mayor as 'victim blaming' for advising women to be wary in the area that it occurred. Maybe I don't understand how that's victim-blaming, but that just seemed like good safety advice to me.

 

[9Westy9]

This is the same as any other crime.

Of course

 

[Debater Slayer]

Wouldn't it depend on the kind of measures you support? Like, when they had those sex attacks in Cologne, people blasted the mayor as 'victim blaming' for advising women to be wary in the area that it occurred. Maybe I don't understand how that's victim-blaming, but that just seemed like good safety advice to me.

I already addressed this in an earlier post about the difference between "preventive measures" and countermeasures:

We mostly agree here, but let me elaborate on something: it seems to me that preventive measures are different from countermeasures. The former, as their name implies, are supposed to prevent the crime from being committed in the first place. The latter are designed to counter the crime once it has already been attempted. There is a subtle but substantial difference between the two.

So, for example, encouraging young women to learn a martial art to defend themselves is a countermeasure--it is supposed to fend off the assailant who has already attempted the crime. Since the assailant has no idea beforehand that the woman knows a martial art, the fact that she does will not prevent him from attempting the crime. Instead, it will stop him in his tracks once he has launched his assault.

On the other hand, sitting at home all the time and avoiding any contact with men whatsoever is a preventive measure--a ridiculously unrealistic and oppressive one, since it is impossible for a woman to never leave her home or avoid any and all instances of being in the same place as men. Other commonly espoused "preventive measures" include abiding by certain dress codes, avoiding any friendly contact with men, and gender segregation in public transportion, at work, malls (Saudi Arabia has gender-segregated malls, for example), etc.

The difference between preventive measures and countermeasures is that the former are usually either so unrealistic and oppressive as to be ridiculous or based on myths and untested opinions, whereas the latter actually acknowledge the fact that pretty much nothing will prevent an assailant from attempting his crime when he sees a woman. It's not like a rapist thinks, "Oh, this lady is dressing modestly and acting appropriately. I'm not going to touch her." Only a good knocking out and prison sentence will teach him to think twice about assaulting anyone again.

 

[Nietzsche]

What do you think they're gonna do? I think we ought to make a law that says when a person is raped the perpetrator should be open season for anybody. I bet @Nietzsche will be happy to hear. And surprisingly this thought process actually comes from a story from the Bible.

In Iceland, a man convicted of rape or attempted rape, was punished with "Outlawry". What's that mean? It meant the individual could be killed, by anyone, without consequence.

I think that's fair.

 

[RRex]

In Iceland, a man convicted of rape or attempted rape, was punished with "Outlawry". What's that mean? It meant the individual could be killed, by anyone, without consequence.

I think that's fair.

Say, I'm for that.

 

[9Westy9]

In Iceland, a man convicted of rape or attempted rape, was punished with "Outlawry". What's that mean? It meant the individual could be killed, by anyone, without consequence.

I think that's fair.

because no one is ever wrongly/ falsely convicted of anything.

 

[RRex]

because no one is ever wrongly/ falsely convicted of anything.

Mob justice is a great deterrent.

I'm feeling very rebellious tonight.