Making A Mockery of Christianity

[Windwalker]

But the issue is that he wasn't aware his part in the play included pratfalls.

Ok, sure. There are people who venture into Pentecostal churches and can be quite taken aback by the goings on in them. I'll grant that.

With all due respect, that may be why you're so averse to calling them out.

Hardly so. I was quite merciless in my criticism of them for many years. I've just grown to the point now where I try to see the world through their points of view, and not just criticize them from my own I have now. I can't think in the terms they do now, but that doesn't mean I can't see how they think has some genuine validity for them. As with anything, there are pros and cons to the things they hold as true. I am very aware of what those cons are. I always try my best to see things using other's set of eyes before I go after dismantling what I see as not valid to me.

But all you can really say with any objectivity is that you've known personally people who say they believe this stuff.

I think it's a little more than them just claiming they believe it. Knowing them personally you can see it demonstrated quite actively that they do believe these things sincerely. As they say, actions speak louder than words, and living with these folk you can see that belief demonstrated in everything they do. Are there those who "fake" it? Yes, but that too becomes apparent in their actions if you get to know them personally.

Moving people towards Christ should be about making the world a better place, not making people fall and setting up possible injuries.

Yes, well.... There are tons of religious rituals the world over where "accidents" can happen. Scarification rituals, fire rituals, dance rituals, etc. Hell, even praying on one's knees could lead to patellofemoral pain syndrome (the kneecap becomes dislodged).

But that's why I don't go to church anymore. It's a clubhouse, not a means of getting anywhere spiritually.

It depends on the congregation really. I will say this for the Pentecostals, despite what are some pretty ungrounded ideas and oftentimes fanatical beliefs, they do have the whole "group energy" thing going on. That "we space" can be an important part of someone's spiritual work.

Now while I personally do the vast majority of my work in private, there is something I cannot get without group work. And the same thing goes the other way around, that those who rely on the group for their space to do work are missing out on the individual space. To me the best balance would be both arms being developed. But finding the right group is a hard thing. If only the Pentecostals could talk the language I do and think in these terms, I think we'd be set.

 

[Windwalker]

Honestly? Referring to the whole thing as a "play" and those in attendance "actors" doesn't really help.

lol. I was just running with your analogy. All the world's a stage....

Aye, and it's usually a touch, not a smack or hard press.

Spanking in the spirit.

Adults are - more often than not - not children. An applicable response to a non-Christian going up during communion, receiving the eucharist, and being told that it's human flesh (they actually just say "the body of christ," though) would be to reply "No it's not?" If you're eating a Snickers bar and I tell you it's a dog turd, are you going to spit it out in disgust?

Actually it really has more to do with how vivid one's imagination is. I mentioned children because their imaginations tend to be more vivid at that age. Many adults retain that imagination, and personally I think that's a good thing, so long as it keeps grounded in some reality they can come back to rather than living in fantasyland.

As an example, people can literally make themselves physically ill be holding on to certain thoughts. This is what Cognitive Behavior Therapy looks at in helping people with things like depression. Our thoughts can lead to emotional and physical disruptions. As funny somewhat related example, I can actually make myself physically sweat by thinking about very hot spicy foods. That's actually true, and I have many friends who will attest to that.

Good for them, really. I'm talking about the charlatans who do it for the money. They're not hard to miss; just look for the expensive jewelry and living. Who grow outraged over disbelief and defiance of their example and word. Who act as a petty god, not a faith leader of men.

Well yes, I have no argument against that. But if the criticism is seeing what appears nutty practices in a church and calling them an embarrassment, that's another thing. And I thought that's what this thread was about.

Cynicism is often built from reason. It is quite often a negative outlook born of experience. How does that fall on it's face?

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I make a very clear distinction between skepticism and cynicism. Skepticism is built on reason. Cynicism is a negative attitude that results from distrust, and it typically resists actual reasoning because of that emotional response to experience. Reason is shunted aside. For instance, a man goes through an ugly divorce and it sours his idea of relationship and his trust of women. Now he's cynical about all women and the idea of relationships in general. That's actually irrational, of course. What I suppose I might say is cynicism is the result of bad or faulty reasoning. Cynicism inherently is irrational, and hence unhealthy. Skepticism on the other hand is quite healthy as it leads to reasoned choices.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

But if the criticism is seeing what appears nutty practices in a church and calling them an embarrassment, that's another thing. And I thought that's what this thread was about.

Here's the difference, I think. How many videos do we have of snake handlers doing their thing? Running through YouTube, I saw maybe three hand-held videos of low quality, in small chapel churches. Are there any videos of shaman spirit walking? Not that I could find. Yet there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of high-quality camera crew videos with sweeping panoramic shots of a huge concert hall packed with human dominos ready to tumble at the whim of the gilded suit up on stage.

That's the mockery. Not the belief itself - though many here are prone to be critical of it - but the show of it all. Quite literally turning faith and worship into a publicity circus.

Skepticism is built on reason. Cynicism is a negative attitude that results from distrust, and it typically resists actual reasoning because of that mindset.

I actually show them as being the same thing. Cynicism is defined as "an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest; skepticism". Having worked in customer service and hospitality for many years, I find more evidence to this than many are willing to acknowledge.

 

[Windwalker]

Here's the difference, I think. How many videos do we have of snake handlers doing their thing? Running through YouTube, I saw maybe three hand-held videos of low quality, in small chapel churches. Are there any videos of shaman spirit walking? Not that I could find.

Do a search for voodoo rituals and you'll find similar stuff. This actually is where Pentecostalism is born out of, African religion. They just go to the Bible and read into it these practices, such as talking in tongues and whatnot. And that's fine, it's just a type of religious expression and everything everyone else believes is read into it too.

Yet there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of high-quality camera crew videos with sweeping panoramic shots of a huge concert hall packed with human dominos ready to tumble at the whim of the gilded suit up on stage.

Well, I think that has to do with the fact that it's practiced in a first world country with greater economic ability and technological tools to rent stadiums with cameras, lights, and PA systems.

That's the mockery. Not the belief itself - though many here are prone to be critical of it - but the show of it all. Quite literally turning faith and worship into a publicity circus.

I think where my criticism of Pentecostalism comes in that I consider it ungrounded and misguided in its approach to these demonstrable religious ecstasies. Speaking from experience with them, I ended up with a clear impression that it was almost "mastabatory", as how I put it. "Getting off on Jesus" in other words. "Fill me Jesus!", that sort of thing.

It's not that having a religious ecstatic experience is that. It certainly isn't. But it seems, and what I think you are seeing in that video is that it's more about seeking the experience, "give me the juice, Jesus!", then about a religious experience for the sake of spiritual growth. It's rather immature that way.

I have an analogy about kids finding the keys to their father's truck and figuring out how to turn it on. They jump in and out of these seat revving the engine and feeling the power rumbling their bodies. But none of them know what the stick shift if for, and that roaring engine is to move the vehicle from point A to point B, where you then get out and turn the engine off. They think it's about the roar, "Rev it up again for me Jesus! Make it go vrrooom vroom!".

If anything is embarrassing it's seeing them playing with some powerful tools and just using them to get themselves off with, using them to get knocked over for the sake of the experience itself. Maybe that's what you see too?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Well, I think that has to do with the fact that it's practiced in a first world country with greater economic ability and technological tools to rent stadiums with cameras, lights, and PA systems.

Ability is half of it. Desire to make it into a five-star-spangled production is the other. A cellphone camera is exposure in a willingness to share. A concert hall is, as you put it, "masturbatory" but for the sake of money and fame.

If anything is embracing it seeing them playing at some power tools and using them to get themselves off with. Maybe that's what you see too?

For the average person? Perhaps; I more have no opinion on it. But to see some gilded suit yahoo running around a group of thousands like he's Dane Cook, knocking them all down with "spiritual wind"... I see dollar signs in his eyes, nothing more.

 

[Windwalker]

Ability is half of it. Desire to make it into a five-star-spangled production is the other. A cellphone camera is exposure in a willingness to share. A concert hall is, as you put it, "masturbatory" but for the sake of money and fame.

Or to give enough space to for everyone who wants to come a place to go to. They could set up in a farm field too, a type of Woodstock deal. I'm just not willing to say all who have that sort of venue are doing it for the money. A review of their finances would reveal that, not the stadium setting.

For the average person? Perhaps; I more have no opinion on it. But to see some gilded suit yahoo running around a group of thousands like he's Dane Cook, knocking them all down with "spiritual wind"... I see dollar signs in his eyes, nothing more.

Clearly the guy in the 2nd video is a huckster. But I was looking at the first one, and did some research on the guy. I get the impression he's just some big name faith healer dude. If anything with people like this I don't just go for the "He's only in it for the money" line. A review of finances would be in order first. More likely he's in it for the ego. Lights, camera, ME!, kind of thing. Now in my experience with some of these big-name preachers, that's what I see more than in it for the money.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

But I was looking at the first one, and did some research on the guy. I get the impression he's just some big name faith healer dude.

His name is Chris Oyakhilome. His net worth is $30–50 million. Compare that to Benny Hinn's $42 million, and Joel Osteen's $40 million. He's also somewhat dubious, as the South African government threatened to jail him if it wasn't revealed what he does with all the donation money he receives.

They're in it for the money. And I stand by that because they've got so much to lose. They've got millions of people who believe them and send them money, and they want to keep that gravy train running because that's human nature. Compare that to the guy in Post #57. If people don't believe he's "feeling the spirit", he's got nothing to lose from it. I would say that he believes what he's doing. Joel Osteen, "Pastor Chris" and Benny Hinn might believe something, but I would bet they love money more than their god.

 

[Windwalker]

His name is Chris Oyakhilome. His net worth is $30–50 million. Compare that to Benny Hinn's $42 million, and Joel Osteen's $40 million. He's also somewhat dubious, as the South African government threatened to jail him if it wasn't revealed what he does with all the donation money he receives.

Alright, I'll concede the point! Yeah. You know one of my favorite movies is Steve Martin in Leap of Faith. Those videos did make me think of him in that movie, I'll confess.

TJoel Osteen, "Pastor Chris" and Benny Hinn might believe something, but I would bet they love money more than their god.

I tried to be generous to them, but I'll side with you now. Good conversation. I appreciated it.

 

[viole]

No. It's tuned for those who like their spiritual food spicy.

Those who fall asleep may fall asleep no matter where they go, but if you're falling asleep because the sermon doesn't engage you (too bland), then you may prefer something livelier.

Yes, but I wonder whether this show is really necessary.

In North Europe it is not uncommon to see publicly-self-declared atheistic pastors who are able to fill churches just because of what they have to say from the pulpit.

Prima facie. i would say that throwing people to the floor with the help of the Holy Spirit (why would it do that, by the way) is an indication that that pastor has nothing interesting to say, otherwise.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Oeste]

Yes, but I wonder whether this show is really necessary.

Necessary? For some, it's necessary in order to be engaging. He could take another track and talk in a monotone, but it wouldn't necessarily engage his target audience.

In North Europe it is not uncommon to see publicly-self-declared atheistic pastors who are able to fill churches just because of what they have to say from the pulpit.

This pastor fills his church the same way. I'm sure if he gave a sermon on the power of Star Wars, pointed a lightsaber, and gave his best "the force be with you" imitation, the crowd would not be as inclined to move or sway.

Delivery and content are equally important. One without the other is virtually useless.

Prima facie. i would say that throwing people to the floor with the help of the Holy Spirit (why would it do that, by the way) is an indication that that pastor has nothing interesting to say, otherwise.

And if the pastor speaks in a monotone, and someone falls asleep, would you say this is also prima facie evidence that the pastor has nothing interesting to say? And if one man, listening to the same sermon, decides to stop beating his girlfriend, makes amends to his wife, or volunteers at a church soup kitchen, would you also say it's because the pastor has nothing interesting to say, that perhaps the Holy Spirit "didn't work", or is it only when people fall to the floor or fall asleep?

Look, what is interesting for you may be totally uninteresting to another. One person says the pastor's service helped changed his life around, another says all he did was fall asleep.

The same people concluding charismatic pastors have nothing interesting to say will most likely conclude that Michael Jackson had big stage productions because he didn't have interesting music or lyrics, and Avatar had a massive budget because it was boring without an interesting plot. Cynics, like believers, are everywhere, even at a concert, theater, or church near you.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Have seen videos from the pentacostal before and those people are insane. They make themselves look like they are possessed by god or something.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Have seen videos from the pentacostal before and those people are insane. They make themselves look like they are possessed by god or something.

Quite. And these same people would probably recoil in horror at the sight of Dionysian cultists working themselves into a frenzy in worship of their god.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Quite. And these same people would probably recoil in horror at the sight of Dionysian cultists working themselves into a frenzy in worship of their god.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Skwim]

Imagine a non-Christian trying to learn about Christianity, and then they come across this video:

And you wonder why people laugh at Christianity. Charlatans like this "pastor" make a mockery out of the religion.

Then there is this guy:

Incidentally, Jeremiah Cummings tried to sue Lionsgate Entertainment, claiming that the movie Religulous ruined his life and drove him to poverty. Apparently after being exposed, numerous people sued him and sought monetary damages. Cummings eventually dropped the case against LE.

Mocking Christianity is NOT my intent. Heck, I consider myself a Christian Deist. The purpose behind the videos is to show that there are people out there that misrepresent Christianity, and those are the ones that need to be called into question.

But this is part and parcel of Christianity. To deny the religion's more unsavory facets while extolling its more virtuous ones is no different than the common Christian approach to god: extolling the good he has done while ignoring all the vile, noxious things he's done. Just as god is not all good, neither is Christianity. Neither presents a full and honest picture.


.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

What do you mean by that?

Nothing more than what I've said. Religious ecstasy is the part of worshipping other gods too - Dionysos included. But these Pentecostals would take one look at people doing the same thing as them and conclude it's devil-worship.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

But these Pentecostals would take one look at people doing the same thing as them and conclude it's devil-worship.

Don't they worship god though?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Don't they worship god though?

Dionysians? No. They worship Dionysos; a god. Pentecostals worship the Abrahamic god who is called 'God'.

 

[Carl W.]

T-V evangelism.
A great way to make a ton of money by fooling
the desperate and gullible.
I worked with a devout Catholic gentleman.
He knew I suffered painful spine injuries so be asked
his Priest to bless some water (Holy water)
for me, explaining I wasn't Catholic.
I used the Holy Water and by back ...............

STILL HURT!

Still I felt the guy was being sincere and kind.

Faith can do much that medicine does not understand.
As for me .................I dunno but remain open
minded.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Dionysians? No. They worship Dionysos; a god. Pentecostals worship the Abrahamic god who is called 'God'.

To be honest I never really heard of Dionysians. I may have to look it up.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

To be honest I never really heard of Dionysians. I may have to look it up.

If you're going to research on this may I recommend Dionysos: Exciter to Frenzy by Vikki Bramshaw? It's a great book in my opinion.