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Male Abortion (should man have the right to abort)

Sheldon

Veteran Member
In that case, it's an ethical issue, because you are saying that murder is only morally wrong, based on certain conditions - consciousness being a factor.

It's not murder, you may want it to be classed as murder, but murder by definition is the unlawful taking of a human life. Wanting it to be classed as murder, does mean it is murder.

So since a sleeping man won't feel a thing, or even an awake man heavily sedated, it's okay to murder him, because you cause him no harm.

A false equivalence as that sleeping man does not require a woman's body to survive, a better analogy would be demanding a man in a coma be given his mother's kidney against her will, in order to stop him dying.

That's basically your argument.
Get rid of anything you don't like, as long as it feels no pain. You don't harm it.


That wasn't remotely his argument, that is one of the most obvious and dishonest straw men I've seen. There is an unavoidable inference to be drawn about a position or argument, when it has to resort to that level of sophistry to defend itself.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well assume a "normal" situation .... a 30yo man with a normal job and economic stability had sex, got pregnant but he doesn't whant to be a father.........should he have the legal right to avoid the responsibility of being a father?
My opinion is probably counter factual, but I would say he has the right to refute any kind of commitment. We proposed something already in that direction here in the North. If that is declared on time by the father. Say, one month before the deadline for real abortion. So, that she has time to terminate the pregnancy if she does not feel like raising the child alone.

That is the simplest solution I see that resolves all asymmetries between man and woman, apart from that extra month. Both have the right to refute parenthood. And the responsibilities that come with it. To make exceptions because of this and that would be too complicated.

However, I am aware that my opinion might be easier in countries where the child has nothing to fear, anyway. On account of a very strong social system

ciao

- viole
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I caution against basing pro or anti abortion reasoning upon
claims of the fetus feeling pain, physical features, survival
outside the womb, & other such arbitrary factors to determine
when a fetus becomes a human with all the attendant rights
given a child (ie, one who has been born).

Any attempt to use science to define when this threshold
to human being is crossed is going to be based upon
presumptions, ie, no absolute truths here. Even those
favoring science over religion will find wide disagreement.
Ultimately it's just going to be an evolving uneasy compromise
(between pro & anti factions) of some point in gestation making
abortion generally illegal.
There will be no agreed upon right or wrong...just a law that
allows some & punishes others. Injustice is guaranteed.

The factors I see....
1) The mother's bodily autonomy vs the fetus balances her
right to independence, health, & even life (in some cases)
against the fetus's right to be eventually born.

2) The initial cell matures into fetus & eventually baby. Anti
abortion types will generally have less objection to aborting
when cells are fewer.

3) Treating abortion of a fetus as "murder" ignores a reason
we prohibit murder, ie, that were it allowed, society would
much more violent. Aborting a fetus doesn't have that effect
because it has no reaction, unlike the populace.
So prohibiting murder is about keeping the peace. Laws
against abortion are about religion & personal feelings.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
My opinion is probably counter factual, but I would say it has the right to refute any kind of commitment. We proposed something already in that direction here in the North. If that is declared on time by the father. Say, one month before the deadline for real abortion. So, that she has time to terminate the pregnancy if she does not feel like raising the child alone.

That is the simplest solution I see that resolves all asymmetries between man and woman, apart from that extra month. Both have the right to refute parenthood. And the responsibilities that come with it. To make exceptions because of this and that would be too complicated.

However, I am aware that my opinion might be easier in countries where the child has nothing to fear, anyway. On account of a very strong social system

ciao

- viole
Assuming that the mother doesn’t want to abort, but the father doesn’t want to provide financial support, do you think the mother should receive some sort of fanatical support from the government? ………….should citizens pay extra taxes to overcome the irresponsibility of the father?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
can you give a scenario when a man does not have to pay child support?
can you give a scenario when a man does not have to pay child support?
Rape, say a teacher raped a 12yo student, in this case the student shouldn’t be obligated to be a father and take care of the financial needs of the child.

The government is supposed to protect 12yo from rapists , if the government failed to do so, they have to pay the consequences
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I believe that is the law as well. The father can't say, "I wanted you to get an abortion, so I shouldn't have to pay for a child I didn't want to exist". The abortion decision was never his to begin with.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Assuming that the mother doesn’t want to abort, but the father doesn’t want to provide financial support, do you think the mother should receive some sort of fanatical support from the government? ………….should citizens pay extra taxes to overcome the irresponsibility of the father?
well, maybe it was not irresponsibility. Maybe contraception misfired. Maybe the woman cheated to get to a rich man. So, if she insists to not abort, it is her call, since it is a safe and cheap procedure. There are a lot of maybes that can be resolved by applying full equality. And rights are, well, expensive.

Anyway, where I come from they abort, usually. Or they raise the child alone, since many earn more than their husbands. Or give it to adoption. Many do the same by using anonymous sperm donors.

so, cases where the state will need to intervene are not so many.

ciao

- viole
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
do you think the mother should receive some sort of fanatical support from the government? ………….should citizens pay extra taxes to overcome the irresponsibility of the father?
Yes.
This would apply to the mother too.
It is a cost effective use of taxpayer money to
ensure that children have a happy & educational
childhood.

I assume that by "fanatical" you meant "financial".
Typing on a phone that picks words for you?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
The kidney would no longer be part of your body, so it's a very poor analogy. The idea a woman donates any part of her body to the process, rather the process being part of her body, is fundamentally wrong.
I don’t see the relevance,

I've emboldened the relevance, hope this helps.

The woman tacitly agreed to share her body with someone else, once she made that decision she can´t no longer repent

I ahve no idea what you mean by repent, or why a woman's choice to have sex need involve it?

the womb would also be part of the embryos body

What? o_O The womb is part of the woman's body, and it can exist without the foetus as can the woman, the foetus cannot exist without the woman's body.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So because you don't agree with abortion, everyone else must agree with you? If anyone doesn't want an abortion, then they don't have to have one. FYI research shows that abortion rates are higher in countries where they cannot be obtained legally. Proper sex education, delivered in a timely fashion, and free access to contraception have been shown to be the most efficacious way to avoid unwanted pregnancies and STD's.
It may very well be that there are fewer abortions when legal.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I caution against basing pro or anti abortion reasoning upon
claims of the fetus feeling pain, physical features, survival
outside the womb, & other such arbitrary factors to determine
when a fetus becomes a human with all the attendant rights
given a child (ie, one who has been born).

Those facts are relevant nonetheless, and it is important to understand as much as possible so we can make informed laws, that are not just based on emotion or subjective opinion.

Any attempt to use science to define when this threshold
to human being is crossed is going to be based upon
presumptions, ie, no absolute truths here.

Well that seems like a false dichotomy fallacy, as we are not limited to either presumptions or absolute truths.

Even those favoring science over religion will find wide disagreement.

This does not negate facts, there is wide disagreement between flat earhers, and those who accept the earth is rotund.

"Rigorous scientific studies have found that the connections necessary to transmit signals from peripheral sensory nerves to the brain, as well as the brain structures necessary to process those signals, do not develop until at least 24 weeks of gestation, because it lacks these connections and structures, the fetus does not even have the physiological capacity to perceive pain until at least 24 weeks of gestation."

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists

---------------------------------------------------------------------

In the UK The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists agree.

"In reviewing the neuroanatomical and physiological evidence in the fetus, it was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the fetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation. After 24 weeks there is continuing development and elaboration of intracortical networks such that noxious stimuli in newborn preterm infants produce cortical responses. Such connections to the cortex are necessary for pain experience but not sufficient, as experience of external stimuli requires consciousness."

Ultimately it's just going to be an evolving uneasy compromise
(between pro & anti factions) of some point in gestation making
abortion generally illegal.
There will be no agreed upon right or wrong...just a law that
allows some & punishes others. Injustice is guaranteed.

I'm happy for anyone who doesn't like abortion to not have one.

The factors I see....
1) The mother's bodily autonomy vs the fetus balances her
right to independence, health, & even life (in some cases)
against the fetus's right to be eventually born.

I'm not aware of any such right?

2) The initial cell matures into fetus & eventually baby. Anti
abortion types will generally have less objection to aborting
when cells are fewer.

A foetus never develops into a baby, it is a baby only after it is born.

3) Treating abortion of a fetus as "murder" ignores a reason we prohibit murder, ie, that were it allowed, society would much more violent. Aborting a fetus doesn't have that effect because it has no reaction, unlike the populace. So prohibiting murder is about keeping the peace. Laws
against abortion are about religion & personal feelings.

Food for thought, but there is research showing that abortion rates are much higher in countries that criminalise it.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I don’t see the point of the arm , care to explain it?
Again? Not really. Go back through our conversation if you actually care.

So if you accept the principle that you can’t kill innocent humans, why making an arbitrary exception with pregnant woman?
I'm not. And since the text to which you are replying directly answers this question --> :rolleyes:
Agree, but I don’t see why is it relevant.
If you agreed and understood what I was saying, then you would not have drawn that false analogy. An analogy that has nothing to do with bodily autonomy.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Those facts are relevant nonetheless, and it is important to understand as much as possible so we can make informed laws, that are not just based on emotion or subjective opinion.
I see a pitfall in making the argument of when life begins
based upon scientific "facts" that may change or be chosen
ad hoc. An anti-abortion type might pick a different fact
that arises earlier...appearance of some physical feature.

If feeling pain is important, what if it's discovered that it's felt
much earlier? Then this "fact" could move the abortion threshold
date far earlier than is reasonable in light of the mother's right
to bodily autonomy.
Perhaps some scientific "fact" might make it prohibited
before she even discovers she's pregnant. So as we can
see, non-scientific factors are stronger than arbitrary
scientifically based milestones.
Well that seems like a false dichotomy fallacy, as we are not limited to either presumptions or absolute truths.
Tis not a fallacy to recognize that abortion rights & restrictions
will be a negotiated compromise between opposing factions.
To recognize the goals of each serves to understand how that
compromise will unfold. And to negotiate effectively with them.
This does not negate facts, there is wide disagreement between flat earhers, and those who accept the earth is rotund.
That is a strange non sequitur.
The shape of the Earth is directly observable
& testable, thus it's a scientific fact.
The morality of abortion is highly subjective
personal opinion, & "nicht einmal falsch".
"Rigorous scientific studies have found that the connections necessary to transmit signals from peripheral sensory nerves to the brain, as well as the brain structures necessary to process those signals, do not develop until at least 24 weeks of gestation, because it lacks these connections and structures, the fetus does not even have the physiological capacity to perceive pain until at least 24 weeks of gestation."

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists

---------------------------------------------------------------------

In the UK The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists agree.

"In reviewing the neuroanatomical and physiological evidence in the fetus, it was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the fetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation. After 24 weeks there is continuing development and elaboration of intracortical networks such that noxious stimuli in newborn preterm infants produce cortical responses. Such connections to the cortex are necessary for pain experience but not sufficient, as experience of external stimuli requires consciousness."
Beware hinging an argument of morality upon a technical
detail that might not even matter to one's opposition.
It smacks of bias confirmation, ie, the detail is chosen
because it supports one's view. If it did not, would it
even have been chosen?
Don't let a detail be the tail that wag the dog.
I'm not aware of any such right?
It is a right claimed by some....& that is a large
group that opposes abortion. They are part of
the political process that makes abortion laws
& legal rights for the parties involved.
A foetus never develops into a baby, it is a baby only after it is born.
Whuh?
The fetus certainly doesn't become a carrot.
It becomes a baby (usually).
Birth is an obvious assumption in the process.
Food for thought, but there is research showing that abortion rates are much higher in countries that criminalise it.
That's a practical matter that would favor abortion rights.
BTW, I'm not just "pro-choice"....I'm pro abortion.
 
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