3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Where is the commandment that expressly eliminates the need to follow all the other laws?
In the very post you are quoting from in Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9; Hebrews 10; Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2.
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Where is the commandment that expressly eliminates the need to follow all the other laws?
Where both Jesus and Paul rather clearly state that we are not under the Law. I've repeatedly quoted those verses but you continue to just blow them off as if they don't exist. So much for "SOLA SCRIPTURA" on your part.The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.
Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...
Where both Jesus and Paul rather clearly state that we are not under the Law. I've repeatedly quoted those verses but you continue to just blow them off as if they don't exist. So much for "SOLA SCRIPTURA" on your part.
I haven't quoted from anything...........In the very post you are quoting from in Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9; Hebrews 10; Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2.
I haven't quoted from anything...........
Hi Milton, you were quoting from my ealier post in post # 200 linked that already had the quotes provided that answered your question.
One simply cannot have it both ways as you have attempted to do with the above, namely that one is intrinsically either "under the Law" or not "under the Law". To say we're not intrinsically "under the Law" and then cite which Laws we are under is simply illogical even on its surface. So, I guess your challenge is to try and be consistent.According to God's Word, no one is "under the law" if they by faith have repented and have been forgiven for their sins (breaking God's Commandments) *1 John 3:4; 1 John 1:9; Proverbs 28:13. Only those who break Gods' Law are "under the law" because they stand before God guilty of breaking it *Romans 3:19.
The scripture that shows we are not "under the law" is not saying we are free to break God's LAW (10 Commandments). The view is not biblical and would contradict the whole bible which is about establishing God's law through faith. *Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4. God's Word does not teach lawlessness. That is a doctrine of devils *1 JOHN 2:3-4 as sin which is defined as breaking God's LAW *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11 is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10.
I have only provided sola scripture to you for every statement I have shared with you brother. It seems though that you simply to not believe it. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear *John 12:47-48.
God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *John 10:26-27
May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.
oh, it was something in your post that I quoted. I misunderstood
One simply cannot have it both ways as you have attempted to do with the above, namely that one is intrinsically either "under the Law" or not "under the Law". To say we're not intrinsically "under the Law" and then cite which Laws we are under is simply illogical even on its surface. So, I guess your challenge is to try and be consistent.
The observance of Sunday that evolved is historically accurate and for a good reason, namely that we are not under the Law with the exception of the Laws that Jesus and the Twelve taught us to follow, and even those are covered by what we call the "law of love" that permeates the Gospel.
That "law of love does not intrinsically have any reference to a mandatory observance of Shabbat as has been repeatedly been explained to you by several of us here, but there is a mandated observance of the Eucharist that the Church began to observe on "the Lord's Day", namely Sunday, as part of the "Agape Meal". The reason should be clear, but for some reason you just can't see it. As the adage goes: "You can have your own opinions but not your own facts".
This is categorically untrue. The only known group to have done this were the Ebionites. After their demise, only the Jewish community kept Shabbat throughout subsequent centuries through til today.According to the biblical and historical records, God's people all throught time to this very present day from JESUS to the Apostles after the death and resurrection of JESUS to God's people after the death of the Apostles have always kept God's 4th commandment unbroken according to Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments to this very present day
Your repoonse...3rdAngel said: ↑ According to the biblical and historical records, God's people all throught time to this very present day from JESUS to the Apostles after the death and resurrection of JESUS to God's people after the death of the Apostles have always kept God's 4th commandment unbroken according to Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments to this very present day
No brother it is categorically true. You saying something is not true because you say so does not make something untrue. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God.This is categorically untrue. The only known group to have done this were the Ebionites. After their demise, only the Jewish community kept Shabbat throughout subsequent centuries through til today.
And exactly what is the source for your cutting & pasting of the above? It has already been well established here on this thread that the Church gradually in the 2nd century gradually made the move to a Sunday observance of the "Lord's Day".Sabbath Observance - The Eleventh Century A.D.
SCOTLAND
They held that Saturday was properly the Sabbath on which they abstained from work. "Celtic Scotland," Vol. 2, p. 350
SCOTLAND
"They worked on Sunday, but kept Saturday in a sabbatical manner...These things Margaret abolished." A History of Scotland from the Roman Occupation," Vol.1, p. 96.
SCOTLAND
"It was another custom of theirs to neglect the reverence due to the Lord's day, by devoting themselves to every kind of worldly business upon it, just as they did upon other days. That this was contrary to the law, she (Queen Margaret) proved to them as well by reason as by authority. 'Let us venerate the Lord's day,' said she, 'because of the resurrection of our Lord, which happened upon that day, and let us no longer do servile works upon it; bearing in mind that upon this day we were redeemed from the slavery of the devil. The blessed Pope Gregory affirms the same.'" Life of Saint Margaret, Turgot, p. 49 (British Museum Library)
SCOTLAND
(Historian Skene commenting upon the work of Queen Margaret) "Her next point was that they did not duly reverence the Lord's day, but in this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early Church of Ireland, by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours." Skene, "Celtic Scotland," Vol.2, p. 349
SCOTLAND AND IRELAND
"T. Ratcliffe Barnett, in his book on the fervent Catholic queen of Scotland who in 1060 was first to attempt the ruin of Columba's brethren, writes: 'In this matter the Scots had perhaps kept up the traditional usage of the ancient Irish Church which observed Saturday instead of Sunday as the day of rest.'" Barnett, "Margaret of Scotland: Queen and Saint," p.97
COUNCIL OF CLERMONT
"During the first crusade, Pope Urban II decreed at the council of Clermont (A.D.1095) that the Sabbath be set aside in honour of the Virgin Mary." History of the Sabbath, p.672
CONSTANTINOPLE
"Because you observe the Sabbath with the Jews and the Lord's Day with us, you seem to imitate with such observance the sect of Nazarenes." Migne, "Patrologia Latina," Vol. 145, p.506; also Hergenroether, "Photius," Vol. 3, p.746. (The Nazarenes were a Christian denomination.)
GREEK CHURCH
"The observance of Saturday is, as everyone knows, the subject of a bitter dispute between the Greeks and the Latins." Neale, "A History of the Holy Eastern Church," Vol 1, p. 731. (Referring to the separation of the Greek Church from the Latin in 1054)
Sabbath Observance - The Twelveth Century A.D.
LOMBARDY
"Traces of Sabbath-keepers are found in the times of Gregory I, Gregory VII, and in the twelfth century in Lombardy." Strong's Cyclopaedia, 1, 660
WALDENSES
"Robinson gives an account of some of the Waldenses of the Alps, who were called Sabbati, Sabbatati, Insabbatati, but more frequently Inzabbatati. "One says they were so named from the Hebrew word Sabbath, because they kept the Saturday for the Lord's day.'" General History of the Baptist Denomination, Vol.II, P. 413
SPAIN (Alphonse of Aragon)
"Alphonse, king of Aragon, etc., to all archbishopss, bishops and to all others...'We command y;ou that heretics, to wit, Waldenses and Insabbathi, should be expelled away from the face of God and from all Catholics and ordered to depart from our kingdom.'" Marianse, Praefatio in Lucam Tudensem, found in "Macima Gibliotheca Veterum Patrum," Vol.25, p.190
HUNGARY FRANCE, ENGLAND, ITALY, GERMANY. (Referring to the Sabbath- keeping Pasagini) "The spread of heresy at this time is almost incredible. From Gulgaria to the Ebro, from nothern France to the Tiber, everywhere we meet them. Whole countries are infested, like Hungary and southern France; they abound in many other countries, in Germany, in Italy, in the Netherlands and even in England they put forth their efforts." Dr. Hahn, "Gesch. der Ketzer." 1, 13, 14
WALDENSES
"Among the documents. we have by the same peoples, an explanation of the Ten Commandments dated by Boyer 1120. Observance of the Sabbath by ceasing from worldly labours, is enjoined." Blair, History of the Waldenses, Vol.1, p. 220
WALES
"There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales university until A.D.1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welslh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." Lewis, "Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America," Vol.1, p.29
FRANCE
"For twenty years Peter de Bruys stirred southern France. He especialy emphasised a day of worship that was recognized at that time amaong the Celtic churches of the British Isles, among the Paulicians, and in the great Church of the East namely, the the seventh day of the fourth commandment."
PASAGINI
The papal author, Bonacursus, wrote the following against the "Pasagaini": "Not a few, but many know what are the errors of those who are called Pasaagini...First, they teach that we should obey the Sabbath. Furthermore, to increase their error, they condemn and reject all the church Fathers, and the whole Roman Church." D'Achery, Spicilegium I,f.211-214; Muratory, Antiq. med. aevi.5, f.152, Hahn, 3, 209
Sabbath Observance - The Thirteenth Century A.D.
WALDENSES
"They say that the blessed Pope Sylvester was the Antichrist of whom mention is made in the Epistles of SSt. Paul as having been the son of perdition.[They also say] that the keeping of the Sabbath ought to take place." Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches ofPiedmont," p.169 (by prominent Roman Cathholic author writing about Waldenses)
FRANCE (Waldenses)
To destroy completely these heretics Pope Innocent III sent Dominican inquistors into France, and also crusaders, promising "a plenary remission of all sins, to those who took on them the crusade...against the albigenses." Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol.XII, art."Raymond VI," p. 670
WALDENSES OF FRANCE
"The inquisitors...[declare] that the sign of a Vaudois, deemed worthy of death, was that he followed Christ and sought to obey the commandments fo God." History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages," H.C.Les, vol.1
FRANCE
Thousands of God's people were tortured to death by the Inquisition, buried alive, burned to death, or hacked to pieces by the crusaders. While devastating the city of Biterre the soldiers asked the Catholic leaders how they should know who were heretics; "Slay them all, for the Lord knows who is His." History of the Inquisition, pp.96
FRANCE-KING LOUIS IX,1229
Published the statute "Cupientes" in which he charges himself to clear southern France from heretics as the Sabbath-keepers were called.
WALDENSES OF FRANCE
"The heresy of the Vaudois, or poor people of Lyons, is of great antiquity, for some say that it has been continued down ever since the time of Pope Sylvester; and others, ever since that of the apostles." The Roman Inquisitor, Reinerus Sacho, writing about 1230
FRANCE-Council Toulouse, 1229
Canons against Sabbath-keepers: "Canon 3.-The lords of the different districts shall have the villas, houses and woods diligently searched, and the hiding-places of the heretics destroyed.
"Canon 14-Lay members are not allowed to possess the books of either the Old or the New Testaments." Hefele, 5, 931, 962
EUROPE
"The Paulicians, Petrobusinas, Passaginians, Waldenses, Insabbatati were great Sabbath-keeping bodies of Europe down to 1250 A.D."
PASAGINIANS
Dr. Hahn says that if the Pasaginians referred to the 4th Commandment to support the Sabbath, the Roman priests answered, "The Sabbath symbolised the eternal rest of the saints."
MONGOLIA
"The Mongolian conquest did not injure the Church of the East. (Sabbath-keeping.) On the contrary, a number of the Mongolian princes and a larger number of Mongolian queens were members of this church."
Sabbath Observance - The Fourteenth Century A.D.
WALDENSES
"That we are to worship one only God, who is able to help us, and not the Saints departed; that we ought to keep holy the Sabbath day." Luther's Fore-runners," p. 38
INSABBATI
"For centuries evangelical bodies, especially the Waldenses, were called Insabbati because of Sabbath-keeping." Gui, Manueld' Inquisiteur
BOHEMIA, 1310 (Modern Czechoslovakia)
"In 1310, two hundred years before Luther's theses, the Bohemian brethern constituted onefourth of the population of Bohemia, and that they were in touch with the Waldenses who abounded in Austria, Lombardy,. Bohemia, north Germany, Thuringia, Brandenburg, and Moravia. Erasmus pointed out how strictly Bohemian Waldenses kept the seventh day Sabbath." Armitage, "A History of the Baptists," p.313; Cox, "The Literature of the Sabbath Question," vol. 2, pp. 201-202
NORWAY
Then, too, in the "Catechism" that was used during the fourteenth century, the Sabbath commandment read thus; "Thou shalt not forget to keep the seventh day." This is quoted from "Documents and Studies Concerning the History of the Lutheran Catechism in the Nordish Churches," p.89. Christiania 1893
NORWAY
"Also the priests have caused the people to keep Saturdays as Sundays." Theological Periodicals for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Norway, Vol.1, p.184 Oslo
ENGLAND, HOLLAND, BOHEMIA
"We wrote of the Sabbatarians in Bohemia, Transylvania, England and Holland between 1250 and 1600 A.D." Truth Triumphant, Wilkinson, p.309
to be continued as I have run out of time for now. Hope this is helpful
My sources are the bible alone and also, multiple historical sources have been provided at the end of every quote for each century. I hope you can see your claims earlier were unfounded. I have not even finished supplying the rest of the references to this present day. BTW there is no such thing as Sunday being "THE LORDS DAY" this is not biblical and a tradition and teaching of men that has led many to break the commandments of God.And exactly what is the source for your cutting & pasting of the above? It has already been well established here on this thread that the Church gradually in the 2nd century gradually made the move to a Sunday observance of the "Lord's Day".
You are confused Gentiles are not Christians. Gentile believes on the other hand are grafted into God's ISRAEL in the new covenant *ROMANS 11:13-27 which is defined as all those who believe and follow God's Word *Ephesians 2:11-13; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13.And, to repeat, Gentiles are not under obligation to observe Jewish Law with the exception of those that Jesus and the Twelve mandate. If you have doubts about that, let me recommend that you ask observant Jews here at RF about this.
As a follow-up to my above post, here's from a source that is not linked to any denomination:
The Lord's Day in Christianity is generally Sunday, the principal day of communalworship. It is observed by most Christians as the weekly memorial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is said in the canonical Gospels to have been witnessed alive from the dead early on the first day of the week. The phrase appears in Rev. 1:10.
According to some sources, Christians held corporate worship on Sunday in the 1st century.[1] An early example of Christians meeting together on a Sunday for the purpose of "breaking bread" and preaching is cited in the New Testament book of Acts (Acts 20:7). 2nd-century writers such as Justin Martyr attest to the widespread practice of Sunday worship (First Apology, chapter 67), and by 361 AD it had become a mandated weekly occurrence. During the Middle Ages, Sunday worship became associated with Sabbatarian (rest) practices. Some Protestants today (particularly those theologically descended from the Puritans) regard Sunday as Christian Sabbath, a practice known as first-day Sabbatarianism. (Some Christian groups hold that the term "Lord's Day" can only properly refer to seventh-day Sabbath or Saturday.)...
The first undisputed reference to Lord's Day is in the apocryphal Gospel of Peter (verse 34,35 and 50[13]), probably written about the middle of the 2nd century or perhaps the first half of that century. The Gospel of Peter 35 and 50 use kyriake as the name for the first day of the week, the day of Jesus' resurrection. That the author referred to Lord's Day in an apocryphal gospel purportedly written by St. Peter indicates that the term kyriake was very widespread and had been in use for some time.
Around 170 AD, Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote to the Roman Church, "Today we have kept the Lord's holy day (kyriake hagia hemera), on which we have read your letter." In the latter half of the 2nd century, the apocryphal Acts of Peter identify Dies Domini (Latin for "Lord's Day") as "the next day after the Sabbath," i.e., Sunday. From the same period of time, the Acts of Paul present St. Paul praying "on the Sabbath as the Lord's Day (kyriake) drew near." However, the Lord's day is identified with the Sabbath in the Acts of John as "on the seventh day, it being the Lord's day, he said to them: now it is time for me also to partake of food."...
In the first centuries, Sunday, being made a festival in honor of Christ's resurrection, received attention as a day of religious services and recreation, but seventh-day Sabbath rest (based on the Jewish Shabbat, because the earliest Christians were all Jews) was still observed by "almost all churches". Often first-day worship (Sunday morning or Saturday night) was practiced alongside observance of seventh-day Sabbath rest and was a widespread Christian tradition by the 2nd century, attested in patristic writings of the 2nd century; over time, Sunday thus came to be known as Lord's Day. These early Christians believed that the resurrection and ascension of Christ signals the renewal of creation, making the day on which God accomplished it a day analogous to the first day of creation when God made the light. Some of these writers referred to Sunday as the "eighth day"...
By the mid-2nd century, Justin Martyr wrote in his apologies about the cessation of Sabbath observance and the celebration of the first (or eighth) day of the week (not as a day of rest, but as a day for gathering to worship): "We all gather on the day of the sun" (τῇ τοῦ ῾Ηλίου λεγομένη ἡμέρᾳ, recalling both the creation of light and the resurrection). He argued that Sabbath was not kept before Moses, and was only instituted as a sign to Israel and a temporary measure because of Israel's sinfulness, no longer needed after Christ came without sin. Curiously he also draws a parallel between the Israelite practice of circumcision on the eighth day, and the resurrection of Jesus on the "eighth day"... -- Lord's Day - Wikipedia