Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

[3rdAngel]

Nothing personal dear friend but I believe your post is a load of nonsense. You were shown through the scriptures that the biblical naming of God's days and the days as we have them today are different. You were then provided with direct biblical scripture passages from JESUS and the APOSTLES proving that they kept the SABBATH in the 1st Century AD.

The JEWS have kept this same SABBATH unbroken ever since the days of JESUS unbroken to this very present day. Then you were provided historical references proving that Christian Sabbath keepers have kept the SABBATH unbroken every century to this very present day.

I believe your denial of the scriptures as the truth of God's Word and the historical evidence proving the Sabbath has been unbroken is amazing so I guess this ends where our conversation ends. I believe I have proven through the scriptures and through History that the Sabbath has been unbroken to this very day.

Now tell me my dear friend what has changed from the days of JESUS and the JEWISH NATION to make you think they have all of a sudden lost the correct Sabbath day?

I believe all you have made are empty unbiblical claims you are not able to prove. Sorry my friend I guess we will have to agree to disagree as I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it and you have provided none.

Sup Dan @Dan From Smithville? Perhaps you can anwer the question? What has changed from the days of JESUS and the JEWISH NATION to make you think they have all of a sudden lost the correct Sabbath day? If you cannot why do you support nonsense and not believe the scriptures and the historical references provided ?

 

[Clear]

3rdAngel

There is no need to become offended or angry when you are asked to provide data for your theories in a debate forum, especially when you criticize other Christians for following “man made traditions” simply because they honor God differently than yourself.


REGARDING 3RDANGELS ORIGINAL CLAIMS

We both agree that Jesus and the apostles “kept a Sabbath”. This agreement is irrelevant to your claims in question.

Your claim was that you could demonstrate that “We know what day the Sabbath is as God's people have kept it all through time unbroken to this very present day. (3rdAngel, in post #537)

The fact that Jesus kept a Sabbath, does not demonstrate it was a specific day (e.g. Saturday or Sunday, or Friday, etc.) nor that it has been kept unbroken “all through time to this very present day”.

Your historical references were simply your own set of "man made" traditions that repeat the same claim, but there was no data that actually demonstrated or proved the underlying claim. None of the traditions you quote actually demonstrate that the Sabbath in Genesis and throughout all time was a specific day such as Saturday, or Sunday, or Tuesday. For all you know, the Day of rest in Genesis, was a Tuesday.



3rd Angel said : “I believe I have proven through the scriptures and through History that the Sabbath has been unbroken to this very day.” (Post #560)

Maybe I missed your "proof"?

Did any other reader see an actual demonstration that the original Sabbath in Genesis was on a specific day such as Saturday or Sunday and that it has been “unbroken” “all through time” to this very present day? Anyone?

3rdAngel, can you tell us which scripture demonstrated that the Sabbath has always been Saturday, or Sunday, or any other specific day from the beginning of time other than based on a tradition?


3rdAngel said : “Now tell me my dear friend what has changed from the days of JESUS and the JEWISH NATION to make you think they have all of a sudden lost the correct Sabbath day? (post #560)

I never made ANY such claim.
My request for data and justification was in response to your criticism of other Christians for their Sunday Sabbath and for their reliance on “man made” traditions.

You made the claim that YOU could demonstrate to readers that you could prove that the sabbath was a specific day.

I simply asked you to do so.

Your response (so far) has been to offer readers quotes from traditions and claims made by men, the very type of man made traditions you criticized other Christians for using. Is there a way you can justify your Criticism of other Christians if you are doing the same thing?

3rdAngel, Please, do not be upset. I am merely asking you to justify your criticism of other Christians for worship and authentic honor of God that is different than yours and I simply asked you to demonstrate what you claimed you could demonstrate (i.e. that the Sabbath always occurred on a specific day such as a Saturday, or Sunday or Monday, or Tuesday etc.) from the beginning of time and that this pattern is unbroken by the Hebrews from the beginning of time.

If you cannot actually prove what you say you can prove, now is the time to admit it before we waste readers time, or before you become more upset. My aim is NOT to simply upset you, but to allow readers insight into your various claims.

Please be at peace.

Clear
σιτζφυφιω

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel There is no need to become offended or angry when you are asked to provide data for your theories in a debate forum, especially when you criticize other Christians for following “man made traditions” simply because they honor God differently than yourself.

Well thankyou my dear friend but I am neither offended or angry. I have provided both God's Word and the historical records to prove what has been shared with you. I am only amazed how you can make claims that the Sabbath has been lost dispite both the scriptures and historical records as evidence both disagree with you. As posted earlier my friend you were shown through the scriptures that the biblical naming of God's days and the days as we have them today are different. You were then provided with direct biblical scripture passages from JESUS and the APOSTLES proving that they both kept the SABBATH in the 1st Century AD.

The JEWS have kept this same SABBATH unbroken ever since the days of JESUS unbroken to this very present day. Then you were provided historical references proving that Christian Sabbath keepers have kept the SABBATH unbroken every century to this very present day.

I believe your denial of the scriptures as the truth of God's Word and the historical evidence proving the Sabbath has been unbroken is amazing and that is all. I believe I have proven through the scriptures and through History that the Sabbath has been unbroken to this very day and it is you who are not able to prove your claims. Yet you deny the evidence only shared with you in love and as a help to you.

We both agree that Jesus and the apostles “kept a Sabbath”. This agreement is irrelevant to your claims in question.

Not really my friend. How is evidence that JESUS and the apostles “kept the Sabbath” irrelevant to my claims that the Sabbath is unbroken? You have been provided the scriptures showing God's early Church kept the Sabbath in the 1st century AD. The JEWISH nation has kept it unbroken ever since and you have been provided Historical references from every century to this present day showing that Christian Sabbath keepers have kept it unbroken since the days of JESUS and the Apostles. Very relevant I would say considering you have provided no evidence to prove that it has been broken I would say .

Your claim was that you could demonstrate that “We know what day the Sabbath is as God's people have kept it all through time unbroken to this very present day. (3rdAngel, in post #537) The fact that Jesus kept a Sabbath, does not demonstrate it was a specific day (e.g. Saturday or Sunday, or Friday, etc.) nor that it has been kept unbroken “all through time to this very present day”.

Nonsense. Sure it does for two reasons. The JEWISH Nation has kept it unbroken since the days of JESUS and the Apostles, as have the Christian Sabbath keepers as already proven through Historical records.

Your historical references were simply your own set of "man made" traditions that repeat the same claim, but there was no data that actually demonstrated or proved the underlying claim. None of the traditions you quote actually demonstrate that the Sabbath in Genesis and throughout all time was a specific day such as Saturday, or Sunday, or Tuesday. For all you know, the Day of rest in Genesis, was a Tuesday.

Not really my friend, I have had nothing to do with those historical references posted as evidence. There are multiple references supplied from a variety of different Historical sources. I suggest you go look them up. They are not man made teachings as you claim but historical records of what happened within history. I also suggest you go learn the difference. In fact quite the opposite to your claims my friend. Everything provided here demonstrate GENESIS as JESUS is the creator of the Sabbath *MARK 2:27-28; MATTHEW 12:8 and he kept it along with the early church and God's people have kept it unbroken ever since. Why do you think that the majority of christianity keep Sunday as a Holy day? It is because of this scripture here; MARK 16:9 [9], Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. The biblical "FIRST DAY" of the week is equivallent to our "SUNDAY". According to the scriptures "THE DAY AFTER THE SABBATH" or the "FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" MATTHEW 28:1 shows that JESUS rose from the dead on our "SUNDAY" and is the reason why many Christian churches claim to whorship God on "SUNDAY" instead of God's 4th commandment "SEVENTH DAY" SABBATH. "SUNDAY" or the "DAY AFTER THE SABBATH" or THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" recorded in the scritpures are references to "SUNDAY", therefore "SATURDAY" being in reference to the SABBATH which is the "SEVENTH DAY" in the scriptures.

Maybe I missed your "proof"? Did any other reader see an actual demonstration that the original Sabbath in Genesis was on a specific day such as Saturday or Sunday and that it has been “unbroken” “all through time” to this very present day? Anyone?

Goodness your trying to make an argument of silence without evidence. I believe you like many here simply do not want to see the evidence because it is there and it shows why you are in error. I have already asked you if you disagree prove that the Sabbath has been broken and that the Jewish nation and christian Sabbath keepers are in error. You have simply ignored this question asked of you my dear friend while ignoring all the evidence provided to you that disagrees with you.

3rdAngel, can you tell us which scripture demonstrated that the Sabbath has always been Saturday, or Sunday, or any other specific day from the beginning of time other than based on a tradition?

Already have as shown above see also, MARK 16:9 and MATTHEW 28:1 and the Christian claims to worshipping JESUS on the so called "LORDS DAY" in honor of the resurrection of JESUS on SUNDAY the FIRST DAY of the week.

I never made ANY such claim. My request for data and justification was in response to your criticism of other Christians for their Sunday Sabbath and for their reliance on “man made” traditions.

Nonsense. Firstly there is no such thing as a Sunday Sabbath it is not biblical and a man made teaching and tradition that breaks God's 4th commandment. Secondly you posted this...

My point was that you do NOT know this. You ascribe to it by tradition. One cannot tell WHICH day of the week we now hold to be the sabbath IS the same 7th day as was the 7th day Moses kept. HOW does one know that a day was not added here, or there. While individuals glibly claim say "the Jews have kept it for 1000s of years", how does one know that the Jews have kept it for 1000s of years. If they missed 2 days, then the original sabbath could be on a monday or tuesday, or a thursday or friday. While it is Saturday here where I live, it is a different day in another place on the planet. It is the 20th where I am now, and it is a day later in another part of the world. Are you assuming that there has never been a mistake or change in any calendar in any of the many types of Judaism over the many years? My point is that the O.P. simply makes an assumption that with the multiple changes of calendar, the diaspora and difficulties, how does one then confirm that the day one says is now "saturday", or "sunday" (or any other day), IS the same saturday or sunday from 4000 years earlier other than by tradition? If you are assuming this by tradition, is there any way to confirm your assumption? Clear

Here you make the claim that I do not know that SATURDAY is the SEVENTH DAY of the week. Yet you can see JESUS, the Apostles and disciples of the 1 century AD early Church kept the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH through the scriptures. You have been shown that the "FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" according to the scriptures and the resurrection of JESUS is todays "SUNDAY" and the reason why people go to church on "SUNDAY" dispite there being not a single scriptures that commands such a practice and as well as this your not able to prove that there is any broken SABBATH from either the JEWISH nation or Sabbath keeping Christians. This is dispite historical evidence that proves your claims to be in error.

You made the claim that YOU could demonstrate to readers that you could prove that the sabbath was a specific day.

Indeed and you have been shown through the scriptures and history that I am correct. Your response is to simply ignore the scriptures and the Historical records that prove these claims dispite having no evidence to prove broken Sabbath observance.

Your response (so far) has been to offer readers quotes from traditions and claims made by men, the very type of man made traditions you criticized other Christians for using. Is there a way you can justify your Criticism of other Christians if you are doing the same thing?

Nonsense. Scriptures from God's Word and Historical records from History is not man made teachings and traditions. Man made teachings and traditions that JESUS warns us about in MATTHEW 15:2-9 is in reference to those teachings and traditions that lead others away from God and His Word to break God's commandments. I believe it is you my friend who is trying to justifiy man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God dispite the warning of JESUS and his Word.

3rdAngel, Please, do not be upset. I am merely asking you to justify your criticism of other Christians for worship and authentic honor of God that is different than yours and I simply asked you to demonstrate what you claimed you could demonstrate (i.e. that the Sabbath always occurred on a specific day such as a Saturday, or Sunday or Monday, or Tuesday etc.) from the beginning of time and that this pattern is unbroken by the Hebrews from the beginning of time. If you cannot actually prove what you say you can prove, now is the time to admit it before we waste readers time, or before you become more upset. My aim is NOT to simply upset you, but to allow readers insight into your various claims. Please be at peace. Clear σιτζφυφιω

Well thankyou but I am in perfect peace and have not been upset at all but thankyou for asking. Your questions have indeed been answered. Perhaps you do not like the answer as it shows why your claims are in error. I am not criticising anyone here simply providing the scriptures from God's Word as we are all told to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not *2 CORINTHIANS 13:5. It seems some do not like it when the truth is shared here as it makes them feel uncomfortable to think that perhaps they are not following God instead of seeing it as a blessing they close their eyes and ears to hearing God's Word and rather sit in darkness rather then light because their deeds are evil *JOHN 3:19-21. It seems it is easier to close ones eyes and pretend that there is no problem when there are problems just as the religious leaders did in the days of JESUS and the Apostles. Yet these very same scriptures teach that all those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into God's kingdom because those doing so reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39. Yep would not like to be on those shoes come judgment day would you dear friend?

 

[Clear]

Hi @3rdAangel,

Your O.P. to this thread castigates Christians for relying on “man made traditions” in their worship of God according to their understanding. I feel that your condemnation of other Christians and their worship was uncalled for. I pointed out even you did not know that the original Sabbath was on a specific day, nor could you demonstrate your claim that Hebrew worship has been on this specific day of the week “through time unbroken” without relying on your own set of traditions.


In post 550 Clear said : “I am interested how you will show that any specific day (e.g. “Saturday” or “Sunday” or “Wednesday”, etc.) has been the specific Sabbath day “through time unbroken” without simply making the claim based on another set of "man made traditions" yourself.

Perhaps you can start with the day God rested. How do you know this was Saturday, and not say, a Tuesday?
Then you can trace that this was the specific day throughout history?”


THE PROBLEM OF IRRELEVANT DATA IS THAT IT IS "IRRELEVANT"

1) SCRIPTURES 3rdAngel USED TO DEMONSTRATE THE SPECIFIC DAY OF WEEK FOR SABBATH AND IT HAS BEEN KEPT "THROUGH TIME UNBROKEN"

Your reply referred to scriptures and your own set of man made traditions. For example :

3rdAngel wrote : “INSTITUTION OF THE SABBATH
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:1-3 )”

While this speaks of the “seventh day”, it does not tell us if this 7th day was a Monday, or a Tuesday, or a Wednesday or a Sunday. This scripture does not demonstrate that this specific weekday was the same 7th day Jews 3000 years later were still observing.

NONE of your other scriptures demonstrate either which specific weekday the original sabbath occurred on NOR do they demonstrate that the Sabbath of the Jews 3000 years later was on the same specific day of the week as the original hallowed day.

For example, you quote : “"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16,17)” ( 3rdAngel in post 551).

How are such scriptures RELEVANT to your claim regarding which week day the original sabbath was?
How do they demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day?
How do they demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”.

Do you see why even a hundred such irrelevant scriptures do not help your case?
You must provide SOME sort of data and the data must be RELEVANT and the use of the data must be LOGICAL.
Your quotes, though numerous, have none of the qualities which will demonstrate what you claimed you could demonstrate.


2) MAN MADE TRADITIONS WHICH 3rdAngel OFFERS TO SUPPORT HIS CLAIMS ARE EQUALLY IRRELEVANT

3rdAngel, Your second set of data are simply your own set of traditions from the second century and beyond. You offer us a LOT of traditional claims, written by men which is the very thing you criticized other Christians for (relying on “man made ) This smacks of hypocrisy. For example

3rdAngel said : “The next installment will show the historical record of the early christians observing the true seventh day Sabbath in the second century A.D….”

Your first quote was from Dr. T.H. Morer of the Church of England from 1701 who said "The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose."

Again, the defect is that such quotes do not tell us ANYTHING about which week day the original sabbath was.
They do NOT demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day.
They do NOT demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”.

They simply demonstrate that Dr. T.H. Morer of 1701 believes that “the primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath…”.

Your quotes from the traditions of other men from other centuries have the same defect. They claim the Sabbath is "important" and that it was claimed to have been "kept" at different ages, but they do not demonstrate which week day the original sabbath was, nor do they demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day, nor do they demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”.

THESE were the things you claimed you could demonstrate, but did not demonstrate to readers.


CHALLENGE TO READERS
Does any reader on the forum SEE any scripture, any quote from the man made traditions which 3rdAngel offered us that demonstrate the specific day of the week the first Sabbath in genesis was Saturday, or Sunday, or Monday? Tuesday? Etc.).

Does any reader on the forum SEE any scripture or quote that actually demonstrates that this same specific day was used as the same day from Adam to Moses, or from Moses to Abraham or from Abraham to Jesus?

Does any reader see data that demonstrated that the same weekday was used for the Sabbath “through time unbroken”.

Does any reader feel 3rd Angel demonstrated any of these three elements that he claimed he could demonstrate?


IRRELEVANT DATA IS, WELL, ... IRRELEVANT
This is the problem 3rdAngel, you gave us a lot of data that was irrelevant to the points you were supposed to demonstrate to readers. You have given us no reason to trust that you can actually prove or demonstrate the specific claims we are referring to. Ironically, you have given your detractors even more reasons to feel it is hypocritical for you to claim they are relying on “traditions of men” when you, yourself did exactly the same thing.


CONDEMNATION OF OTHER CHRISTIANS FOR HONORING GOD IN THE BEST WAY THEY KNOW HOW IS IMPROPER
3rdAngel, Unless you actually DO have RELEVANT data, I still remain convinced that your condemnation of other Christians for worshiping God differently than you is misplaced hubris. Instead, you should attempt to HONOR other Christians for honoring God according to their best understanding and their good hearts.


In any case, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and that it gives you wonderful experiences and wonderful insights. Good journey 3rdAngel.

Clear
σιεισενεω

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sup Dan @Dan From Smithville? Perhaps you can anwer the question? What has changed from the days of JESUS and the JEWISH NATION to make you think they have all of a sudden lost the correct Sabbath day? If you cannot why do you support nonsense and not believe the scriptures and the historical references provided ?

I long ago stop believing nonsense. Please do not consider responding to your posts as taking up nonsense again my dear friend. It is best you hear the truth no matter how painful. It is done out of love. You are a man with a man's wisdom and On th

Hi @3rdAangel,

Your O.P. to this thread castigates Christians for relying on “man made traditions” in their worship of God according to their understanding. I feel that your condemnation of other Christians and their worship was uncalled for. I pointed out even you did not know that the original Sabbath was on a specific day, nor could you demonstrate your claim that Hebrew worship has been on this specific day of the week “through time unbroken” without relying on your own set of traditions.


In post 550 Clear said : “I am interested how you will show that any specific day (e.g. “Saturday” or “Sunday” or “Wednesday”, etc.) has been the specific Sabbath day “through time unbroken” without simply making the claim based on another set of "man made traditions" yourself.

Perhaps you can start with the day God rested. How do you know this was Saturday, and not say, a Tuesday?
Then you can trace that this was the specific day throughout history?”


THE PROBLEM OF IRRELEVANT DATA IS THAT IT IS "IRRELEVANT"

1) SCRIPTURES 3rdAngel USED TO DEMONSTRATE THE SPECIFIC DAY OF WEEK FOR SABBATH AND IT HAS BEEN KEPT "THROUGH TIME UNBROKEN"

Your reply referred to scriptures and your own set of man made traditions. For example :

3rdAngel wrote : “INSTITUTION OF THE SABBATH
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:1-3 )”

While this speaks of the “seventh day”, it does not tell us if this 7th day was a Monday, or a Tuesday, or a Wednesday or a Sunday. This scripture does not demonstrate that this specific weekday was the same 7th day Jews 3000 years later were still observing.

NONE of your other scriptures demonstrate either which specific weekday the original sabbath occurred on NOR do they demonstrate that the Sabbath of the Jews 3000 years later was on the same specific day of the week as the original hallowed day.

For example, you quote : “"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16,17)” ( 3rdAngel in post 551).

How are such scriptures RELEVANT to your claim regarding which week day the original sabbath was?
How do they demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day?
How do they demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”.

Do you see why even a hundred such irrelevant scriptures do not help your case?
You must provide SOME sort of data and the data must be RELEVANT and the use of the data must be LOGICAL.
Your quotes, though numerous, have none of the qualities which will demonstrate what you claimed you could demonstrate.


2) MAN MADE TRADITIONS WHICH 3rdAngel OFFERS TO SUPPORT HIS CLAIMS ARE EQUALLY IRRELEVANT

3rdAngel, Your second set of data are simply your own set of traditions from the second century and beyond. You offer us a LOT of traditional claims, written by men which is the very thing you criticized other Christians for (relying on “man made ) This smacks of hypocrisy. For example

3rdAngel said : “The next installment will show the historical record of the early christians observing the true seventh day Sabbath in the second century A.D….”

Your first quote was from Dr. T.H. Morer of the Church of England from 1701 who said "The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose."

Again, the defect is that such quotes do not tell us ANYTHING about which week day the original sabbath was.
They do NOT demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day.
They do NOT demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”.

They simply demonstrate that Dr. T.H. Morer of 1701 believes that “the primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath…”.

Your quotes from the traditions of other men from other centuries have the same defect. They claim the Sabbath is "important" and that it was claimed to have been "kept" at different ages, but they do not demonstrate which week day the original sabbath was, nor do they demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day, nor do they demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”.

THESE were the things you claimed you could demonstrate, but did not demonstrate to readers.


CHALLENGE TO READERS
Does any reader on the forum SEE any scripture, any quote from the man made traditions which 3rdAngel offered us that demonstrate the specific day of the week the first Sabbath was (Monday? Tuesday? Etc.).

Does any reader on the forum SEE any scripture or quote that actually demonstrates that this same specific day was used as the same day from Adam to Moses, or from Moses to Abraham or from Abraham to Jesus?

Does any reader see data that demonstrated that the same weekday was used for the Sabbath “through time unbroken”.

Does any reader feel 3rd Angel demonstrated any of these three elements that he claimed he could demonstrate?


IRRELEVANT DATA IS, WELL, ... IRRELEVANT
This is the problem 3rdAngel, you gave us a lot of data that was irrelevant to the points you were supposed to demonstrate to readers. You have given us no reason to trust that you can actually prove or demonstrate the specific claims we are referring to. Ironically, you have given your detractors even more reasons to feel it is hypocritical for you to claim they are relying on “traditions of men” when you, yourself did exactly the same thing.


CONDEMNATION OF OTHER CHRISTIANS FOR HONORING GOD IN THE BEST WAY THEY KNOW HOW IS IMPROPER
3rdAngel, Unless you actually DO have data, I still remain convinced that your condemnation of other Christians for worshiping God differently than you is misplaced hubris. Instead, you should attempt to HONOR other Christians for honoring God according to their best understanding and their good hearts.


In any case, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and that it gives you wonderful experiences and wonderful insights. Good journey 3rdAngel.

Clear
σιεισενεω

I have seen none of those things that are claimed to be in the evidence rendered by the other poster.

 

[3rdAngel]

Hi @3rdAangel

Hello Clear nice to see you again. I might break this post down into some smaller posts so they are easier to read and more manageable.

Your O.P. to this thread castigates Christians for relying on “man made traditions” in their worship of God according to their understanding. I feel that your condemnation of other Christians and their worship was uncalled for. I pointed out even you did not know that the original Sabbath was on a specific day, nor could you demonstrate your claim that Hebrew worship has been on this specific day of the week “through time unbroken” without relying on your own set of traditions.

Not really my dear friend. I believe if you feel castigated or condemned by the scriptures and the very words of JESUS *MATTHEW 15:2-9 for relying on "man made traditions and teachings that break the commandments of God" then it is God's Spirit through His Word that is calling you and knocking at the door of your heart as it is God's Word not mine that is being shared with you and convicting you that His Word is true and calling you back to him. If we do not feel consitgated or condemned it is because we are following Gods' Word and walking in His ways and His Words and Spirit bear witness to our spirit that we are the children of God *ROMANS 8:16

When the Word of God comes to us we can receive it in two ways. 1. We can see it as God's blessing to us and receive it and believe it and follow it or 2. We can harden our heart and close our eyes and ears to hearing God's Word. At this point he is no longer able to heal us and we continue in known unrepentant sin and the Spirit of God leaves us. I believe if you hear JESUS knocking at the door of your heart it is up to us to humble ourselves and open the door and let him in. "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me *REVELATION 3:20.

to be continued...

 

[3rdAngel]

THE PROBLEM OF IRRELEVANT DATA IS THAT IT IS "IRRELEVANT"

No need to shout my dear friend and be upset. All the scriptures and the historical records shared here are all relevant as they show that JESUS who is the creator of heaven and earth and the Sabbath commandment as well as all the Apostles and the early Church all kept God's 4th commandment on the correct day of the week which according to the scriptures is the "seventh day" *GENESIS 2:1-3; EXODUS 20:10. Since the days of JESUS the Jewish nation has been keeping it unbroken ever since. The scriptures also show as shown earlier that the "FIRST DAY" of the week was the day that JESUS was resurrected on *MARK 16:9 and MATTHEW 28:1 and the Christian claims to worshipping JESUS on the so called "LORDS DAY" in honor of the resurrection of JESUS on SUNDAY the FIRST DAY of the week. According to the scriptures "THE DAY AFTER THE SABBATH" or the "FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" MATTHEW 28:1 shows that JESUS rose from the dead on our "SUNDAY" and is the reason why many Christian churches claim to whorship God on "SUNDAY" instead of God's 4th commandment "SEVENTH DAY" SABBATH. "SUNDAY" or the "DAY AFTER THE SABBATH" or THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" recorded in the scritpures are references to "SUNDAY", therefore "SATURDAY" being in reference to the SABBATH which is the "SEVENTH DAY" in the scriptures. Well we have not even yet to talk about the historical records already provided about the sabbath keeping christians that can be traced all through the time of JESUS to this very present day. I would say all of the above is very relevant. You closing your eyes and jumping up and down quoting you does not make the scriptures and History disappear. I believe it only shown you are choosing to close your eyes and ears in order to justify man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God according to the scriptures.

Your reply referred to scriptures and your own set of man made traditions. For example :

3rdAngel wrote : “INSTITUTION OF THE SABBATH
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:1-3 )”

While this speaks of the “seventh day”, it does not tell us if this 7th day was a Monday, or a Tuesday, or a Wednesday or a Sunday. This scripture does not demonstrate that this specific weekday was the same 7th day Jews 3000 years later were still observing.

See previous section on the resurrection, first day and sunday. JESUS is the creator of heaven and earth and Lord of the seventh day Sabbath. His custom when he came and lived was to keep the SABBATH *LUKE 4:16 as was PAUL'S *ACTS 17:2. As posted earlier. As posted in the very first post to you the pagan week days and names are not the same as we have them in the scriptures though the scriptures, the Jewish nation and also the historical records of christian Sabbath keepers all show that the "seventh day" is our Friday sunset to Saturday sunset God's time just the same as our "Sunday" is the "First day" of the week. All you have to do is ask any JEW what day today is the "seventh day Sabbath" of the week. They will tell you "Friday sunset to Saturday sunset". Also ask any "Sunday" keeping christian what day is the "first day" of the week in the bible. They will tell you "Sunday".

NONE of your other scriptures demonstrate either which specific weekday the original sabbath occurred on NOR do they demonstrate that the Sabbath of the Jews 3000 years later was on the same specific day of the week as the original hallowed day.

Not really dear friend. See above your just repeating yourself here

to be continued...

 

[3rdAngel]

For example, you quote : “"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16,17)” ( 3rdAngel in post 551).

How are such scriptures RELEVANT to your claim regarding which week day the original sabbath was? How do they demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day? How do they demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”.

Well that is quite an easy question I am surprised you do not understand these scriptures. It shows the importance of God's LAW and salvation. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20 and just like everyone of God's 10 commandments if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who knowingly practice sin (breaking God's commandments) according to the scriptures will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39. It shows how JESUS and the JEW viewed the importance of God's LAW. This is one of the reasons that the Sabbath has been unbroken ever since the days of JESUS and why the Jewish nation and Sabbath keeping Christians have kept it unbroken ever since the days of JESUS and the apostles as shown through the scriptures and the historical records.

Do you see why even a hundred such irrelevant scriptures do not help your case? You must provide SOME sort of data and the data must be RELEVANT and the use of the data must be LOGICAL. Your quotes, though numerous, have none of the qualities which will demonstrate what you claimed you could demonstrate.

I believe the scriptures and the historical records have been provided that show that the Sabbath is unbroken since the days of JESUS and the Apostles. I also believe you closing your eyes and ears to this fact does not make them disappear.

3rdAngel, Your second set of data are simply your own set of traditions from the second century and beyond. You offer us a LOT of traditional claims, written by men which is the very thing you criticized other Christians for (relying on “man made ) This smacks of hypocrisy.

Actaully, no my dear friend. Historical records are not mine they are records of what happens within historical time periods. If the historical records are only a record or recording of an event that happened within a set time period, how can they be a tradition or a teaching as shown in MATTHEW 15:2-9 by the very words of JESUS which is in reference to false doctrine? I suggest you go google the difference between History and doctrine as I believe you are confused here

To be continued....

 

[3rdAngel]

Again, the defect is that such quotes do not tell us ANYTHING about which week day the original sabbath was. They do NOT demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day.
They do NOT demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”. They simply demonstrate that Dr. T.H. Morer of 1701 believes that “the primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath…”. Your quotes from the traditions of other men from other centuries have the same defect. They claim the Sabbath is "important" and that it was claimed to have been "kept" at different ages, but they do not demonstrate which week day the original sabbath was, nor do they demonstrate that the Jews were observing the same day of the week in Jesus Day, nor do they demonstrate the practice existed on the same weekday “through time unbroken”.

Not really dear friend. Your not keeping up with what is being posted here. Those series of posts with multiple historical records from multiple sources were provided proving that the Sabbath that was kept by JESUS and the apostles and the early Church can be traced all through the time of JESUS and the Apostles all through time to this present day. Today these same christian Sabbath keeping churchs as do the Jewish nation continue to keep the same Sabbath time which is sunset Friday to sunset Saturday which according to God's Word is the "seventh day Sabbath" I believe dear friend all your trying to do is to draw away attention to this fact which was the reason why these references were provided. Go and ask any JEW what day and time the seventh day Sabbath starts according to our pagan calander or look up a dictionary.

Hebrew Dictionary
How to say "Saturday" in Hebrew
(Listed in the Days of the Week category)

"I (masculine) do not work on Shabbat," or "I (feminine) do not work on Shabbat."

Online Etymology Dictionary (tracing word origins)
Saturday (n.)
seventh day of the week, Old English sæterdæg, sæternesdæg, literally "day of the planet Saturn," from Sæternes (genitive of Sætern; see Saturn) + Old English dæg (see day). Partial loan-translation of Latin Saturni dies "Saturn's day" (compare Dutch Zaterdag, Old Frisian Saterdi, Middle Low German Satersdach; Irish dia Sathuirn, Welsh dydd Sadwrn). The Latin word itself is a loan-translation of Greek kronou hēmera, literally "the day of Cronus."

Unlike other English day names, no god substitution seems to have been attempted, perhaps because the northern European pantheon lacks a clear corresponding figure to Roman Saturn. A homely ancient Nordic custom, however, seems to be preserved in Old Norse laugardagr, Danish lørdag, Swedish lördag "Saturday," literally "bath day" (Old Norse laug "bath").

German Samstag (Old High German sambaztag) appears to be from a Greek *sambaton, a nasalized colloquial form of sabbaton "sabbath," also attested in Old Church Slavonic sabota, Polish sobota, Russian subbota, Hungarian szombat, French samedi.

Dictionary.com
Saturday
[ sat-er-dey, -dee ]
noun
the seventh day of the week, following Friday.

Meriam Webster
Saturday
Sat·ur·day | \ ˈsa-tər-(ˌ)dā , -dē \
Definition of Saturday
: the seventh day of the week

Vocabulary.com Dictionary
Saturday
noun; the seventh and last day of the week; observed as the Sabbath by Jews and some Christians. Synonyms: Sabbatum, Sat

Collins Dictionary
Saturday in British English
NOUN
the seventh and last day of the week: the Jewish Sabbath
Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers

Saturday in American English
NOUN
the seventh and last day of the week
abbrev. Sat, Sa, or S
Websters 1913 Dictionary
Sat´ur`day
n. 1. The seventh or last day of the week; the day following Friday and preceding Sunday.

WordNet Dictionary
Noun 1. Saturday - the seventh and last day of the week; observed as the Sabbath by Jews and some Christians
Synonyms: Sabbatum, Sat

Mnemonic dictionary
saturday
saturday - Dictionary definition and meaning for word saturday
Definition (noun) the seventh and last day of the week; observed as the Sabbath by Jews and some Christians. Synonyms : sabbatum , sat

Ok thats enough for now

To be continued...

 

[3rdAngel]

IRRELEVANT DATA IS, WELL, ... IRRELEVANT This is the problem 3rdAngel, you gave us a lot of data that was irrelevant to the points you were supposed to demonstrate to readers. You have given us no reason to trust that you can actually prove or demonstrate the specific claims we are referring to. Ironically, you have given your detractors even more reasons to feel it is hypocritical for you to claim they are relying on “traditions of men” when you, yourself did exactly the same thing.

Not really dear friend, there is no need to be upset. I am only sharing God's Word and the truth as a result of questions you have been asking. These are only provided in love and as a help to you. You are free to believe as you wish. For me though I choose to believe and follow God's Word. As we all answer only to God come judgment day being judged by the very Word of God we believe or reject *JOHN 12:47-48

How do we know which day is the Sabbath?

This is a fallacy that has comforted many in their disobedience to the fourth Commandment. Beside the fact that God would not allow the day to be lost, here are four other proofs that identify we still have the correct Sabbath day:

1. Many people today have never given much thought to which is the seventh day of the week. Many people assume that Sunday was the seventh day and Monday was the first day. One easy way to confirm this is to just look up Saturday in any normal dictionary. For example and as shown a lot more in the previous post...

Saturday n. the seventh day of the week; day after Friday; day of worship among Jews and some Christians.
Saturday n. the seventh and last day of the week: the Sabbath.

2. The Scriptures say Christ died on Friday and rose on Sunday, the first day of the week. Practically all churches acknowledge this fact by observing Good Friday and Easter Sunday. Here is the Bible evidence: “This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath drew on.” Luke 23:52-54. This clearly shows Jesus died the day before the Sabbath. It was called “the preparation day” because it was the time to get ready (to prepare) for the Sabbath. Verses 55 and 56 go on to say, “And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the Commandment.” Note that the women rested over the Sabbath “according to the Commandment” and that the book of Luke was written decades after the cross showing the Sabbath unquestionably remained unchanged. The Commandment says, “The seventh day is the Sabbath,” so we know they were observing Saturday. The very next verse says; “Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared… And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.” Luke 24:1-2. How clearly these three consecutive days are described for us. He died Friday, the preparation day, commonly called Good Friday. He rested in the tomb on the seventh day, Sabbath, “according to the Commandment.” That was Saturday. Then on Sunday, the first day of the week, Easter Sunday to many, Jesus arose from the grave. Anyone who can locate Good Friday or Easter Sunday will have absolutely no difficulty finding the true Sabbath day. See also Wednesday crucifixion.

3. The third proof lies in the fact that in over 100 languages of the world, the seventh day Saturday is still called the Sabbath. In Italy it is called Sabbato, in Spain Sabado, in Portugal Sabbado, in Russia Subbota and Poland Sobota. All of these names mean “Sabbath” or “rest day” in their various languages. What does this prove? It proves that when those 100 languages originated at Babel in Genesis 11, Saturday was recognized as the Sabbath day and was incorporated into the very name of the day. Except for those languages that have adopted the pagan names for the days of the week, the seventh day is still called the Sabbath as the Lord named it at the time of creation. Strong’s dictionary shows the word translated “rest” in our English Bibles in Genesis 2:3, is actually “Sabbath” in the Hebrew. See who changed the Sabbath to Sunday or what day is the Sabbath for a table of languages. (NOTE: THIS ONE WE WILL REVIST IN MORE DETAIL LATTER)

4. Here is the most conclusive proof of all for the true Sabbath. The Jewish people have been observing the seventh day from the time of Abraham, and they still keep it today. Here is a whole nation, millions of individuals who have been counting off time meticulously, week after week, calendar or no calendar, for thousands of years. Could they have lost track of days? That would be impossible! The only way they could have lost a day would have been for the entire nation to have slept over an extra day and for no one ever to tell them about it afterwards. There is no scientific or astronomical reason for measuring time in cycles of seven days. The origin of the week is found in the creation story and it is an arbitrary arrangement of God and has been miraculously preserved for one reason, which is because the holy Sabbath day points to the creative power of the only true God. It is a sign of His sovereignty over the world and over human life, a sign of creation and redemption. Is this not the reason God will preserve Sabbath keeping throughout eternity? We read in Isaiah 66:22-23 “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.” The Sabbath is so precious to God that His true Children will observe it throughout all time to see in the beautiful new heavens and the new earth. If the Sabbath is so precious to God then why isn’t it precious to us? If it was made and kept since creation and we keep it for all eternity, then why isn’t everyone keeping it now? See the Sabbath to Sunday change for the answer. (Source)

to be continued

 

[3rdAngel]

Ok in summary so far we have proven through the scriptures, Historical records and English Word definitions that;

1. The Hebrew and biblical names of the week are not the same as our pagan named week days we have today. (post # 549 linked)
2. "SATURDAY" is the "SEVENTH DAY" of the week according to English Word definitions from the Dictionary (post # 569 linked)
3. "SATURDAY" in the Hebrew Language means the "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" (post # 569 linked)
4. JESUS and the Apostles and the church have all kept God's "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" through both the scriptures and the Historical records century by century all through time to this present day unbroken through both the Jewish nation and Sabbath keeping Christians. (starting post # 551 to post # 557)
5. The "SUNDAY" keeping christians keep the "FIRST DAY" of the week "SUNDAY" in honor the the "resurrection of JESUS" and call it the "LORDS DAY" the scriptures teach in MATTHEW 28:1 that this is the "FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" and the "DAY AFTER THE SABBATH" *MARK 16:9 (post # 563 linked 4th para)
6. The english word for our "SATURDAY" means "SEVENTH DAY or SABBATH DAY" in over 100 languages around the World. (post # 571 linked here)

..............

What I would like to show now is to continue on from point 2 listed above showing that in ENGLISH "SATURDAY" means the "SEVENTH DAY" which will be my point six that will be added to this list here to show from Language linguistics that our SATURDAY means SABBATH or SEVENTH DAY in many countries and cultures around the world. As posted a little earlier in point 3 of post # 570 linked; In over 100 languages of the world, the seventh day Saturday is still called the Sabbath. In Italy it is called Sabbato, in Spain Sabado, in Portugal Sabbado, in Russia Subbota and Poland Sobota. All of these names mean “Sabbath” or “rest day” in their various languages. What does this prove? It proves that when those 100 languages originated at Babel in Genesis 11, Saturday was recognized as the Sabbath day and was incorporated into the very name of the day. Except for those languages that have adopted the pagan names for the days of the week, the seventh day is still called the Sabbath as the Lord named it at the time of creation. Strong’s dictionary shows the word translated “rest” in our English Bibles in Genesis 2:3, is actually “Sabbath” in the Hebrew.

The Greek Language and the ancient Manuscripts of the New Testament also give evidence of the connection between the word “Sabbath” and the day which has been named “Saturday”. The Greek word “Sabbaton”(Strong’s Greek Concordance – G4521 – σάββατον) used in the Original Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament which is translated as “Sabbath” in English, is the same word that is used for “Saturday” in the Greek language even today. In other words, the day which is known to us as “Saturday”, is called “Sabbato” (σάββατο) by the Greeks even today. This is a remarkable piece of evidence which has survived almost untouched to our very present age, making “Sabbath” and “Saturday” one in the same. A person who is unsure about this fact can look at any Greek-English Dictionary to seek further verification.

Now let's look at the Saturday and the same meaning and words used in other languages around the world...

[GALLERY=media, 9279]Saturday is the 7th Day language proof by 3rdAngel posted Mar 24, 2020 at 10:40 AM[/GALLERY]

Here is a visual representation here

[GALLERY=media, 9278]Saturday means 7th day Around The World by 3rdAngel posted Mar 24, 2020 at 10:40 AM[/GALLERY]

Yep seems pretty concusive in my view that the "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" is "SATURDAY" or more precisely God's time Friday sunset to Saturday sunset our time. Hope this helps and may God bless all who seek him through His Word

 

[Clear]

to 3rdAngel

You need to understand that there is a difference between simply writing something down and offering relevant information. Your data was not necessarily "bad" or "incorrect" data. It simply did not have relevance to your claims. IF you don't have any data that can actually demonstrate the three points you claimed you could prove, then I honestly don't have much interest in simply "reading" writing that is irrelevant to my actual questions.

What I am looking for in the forum, is good, relevant data that gives insight and answers specific questions of importance.

Good luck and good journey 3rdAngel

Clear



to other Forum members :

EXAGERATED CHRISTIAN CLAIMS OFTEN CAUSE MORE HARM THAN THE GOOD THEY ARE INTENDED TO DO

If we christians make inflated claims and when we then cannot actually support the claims we make, then this claim may be used by non Christians as examples of Christian error and of the tendency in Christians to overstate their position. .

The agnostics and athiests are as intelligent as Christians. They realize that many of the claims Christians make are erroneous. I think agnostics and other theists will be more forgiving of children who make inflated claims and brag since they understand the kind and good motives behind the “my dad can beat up your dad” bravado of a small child. However, that sort of pride is less justifiable when applied to making false claims to show “my religious theory can beat up your religious theory” in individuals who should know better. In the face of christian pride and an attitude of christian superiority, The agnostic then feels quite justified in tearing false christian claims apart.

One harm of inaccurate and inflated Christian claims is that the agnostic may then unjustifiably dismiss profound christian truths at the same time he justifiably dismisses the christian errors. The other harm is that the Christian claim itself loses credibility in the eyes of critics when christians make unjustifiable and erroneous claims.

This damage caused by loss of credibility goes deep and has long-lasting effects. I have wondered if the damage of erroneous claims might go as deep as that of hypocrisy (I think the damage DOES go as deep if the claim is an obvious lie)..

My point is that none of us are justified in inflating our own pride such that condemn other honest and faithful Christians, especially if we are doing the same thing we accuse them of.


In any case, I hope your various journeys are good and life provides wonderful and insightful experiences for you.


Clear

 

[3rdAngel]

to 3rdAngel

You need to understand that there is a difference between simply writing something down and offering relevant information. Your data was not necessarily "bad" or "incorrect" data. It simply did not have relevance to your claims. IF you don't have any data that can actually demonstrate the three points you claimed you could prove, then I honestly don't have much interest in simply reading. I do not come to the forums to simply hear people speak, but I am looking for specific types of data. What I want is relevant and correct data that is logical and rational and that applies to the question at hand.



to other Forum members :

EXAGERATED CHRISTIAN CLAIMS OFTEN CAUSE MORE HARM THAN THE GOOD THEY ARE INTENDED TO DO

If we christians make inflated claims and when we then cannot actually support the claims we make, then this claim may be used by non Christians as examples of Christian error and of the tendency in Christians to overstate their position. .

The agnostics and athiests are as intelligent as Christians. They realize that many of the claims Christians make are erroneous. I think agnostics and other theists will be more forgiving of children who make inflated claims and brag since they understand the kind and good motives behind the “my dad can beat up your dad” bravado of a small child. However, that sort of pride is less justifiable when applied to making false claims to show “my religious theory can beat up your religious theory” in individuals who should know better. In the face of christian pride and an attitude of christian superiority, The agnostic then feels quite justified in tearing false christian claims apart.

One harm of inaccurate and inflated Christian claims is that the agnostic may then unjustifiably dismiss profound christian truths at the same time he justifiably dismisses the christian errors. The other harm is that the Christian claim itself loses credibility in the eyes of critics when christians make unjustifiable and erroneous claims.

This damage caused by loss of credibility goes deep and has long-lasting effects. I have wondered if the damage of erroneous claims might go as deep as that of hypocrisy (I think the damage DOES go as deep if the claim is an obvious lie)..

My point is that none of us are justified in inflating our own pride such that condemn other honest and faithful Christians, especially if we are doing the same thing we accuse them of.


In any case, I hope your various journeys are good and life provides wonderful and insightful experiences for you.


Clear

Nice "hand waive" to the evidence that shows why you are in error my dear friend. I believe ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. It will be our judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.

The evidence your rejecting so far is...

1. "SATURDAY" is the "SEVENTH DAY" of the week according to English Word definitions from the Dictionary (post # 569 linked)
2. "SATURDAY" in the Hebrew Language means the "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" (post # 569 linked)
3. JESUS and the Apostles and the church have all kept God's "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" through both the scriptures and the Historical records century by century all through time to this present day unbroken through both the Jewish nation and Sabbath keeping Christians. (starting post # 551 to post # 557)
4. The "SUNDAY" keeping christians keep the "FIRST DAY" of the week "SUNDAY" in honor the the "resurrection of JESUS" and call it the "LORDS DAY" the scriptures teach in MATTHEW 28:1 that this is the "FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" and the "DAY AFTER THE SABBATH" *MARK 16:9 (post # 563 linked 4th para)
5. The english word for our "SATURDAY" means "SEVENTH DAY or SABBATH DAY" in over 100 languages around the World. (post # 571 linked here)

I believe all of the above both individually and collectively, overwelmingly prove that "SATURDAY" is the "SEVENTH DAY"

I believe your response is to simply close your eyes to the truth. You are free to believe as you wish. We will have to agree to disagree I guess

 

[MNoBody]

given that these traditions are all tributes
like cover songs done by impersonators,
it is hard to be a fan of any of that genre at all.
although some renditions are nice, and they all mangle it passably for the modern devolved ear

 

[3rdAngel]

given that these traditions are all tributes
like cover songs done by impersonators,
it is hard to be a fan of any of that genre at all.
although some renditions are nice, and they all mangle it passably for the modern devolved ear

Thats a unique way of looking at it

 

[Clear]

REGARDING THE SPECIFIC DAY OF THE WEEK FOR THE FIRST SABBATH IN GENESIS - Based on pre-history tradition or proveable?

Clear asked : “ I am wondering why the question in the O.P. assumes that either the current Saturday or the current Sunday is the actual and original 7th day that God rested on and declared holy. #536”
3rd Angel claimed : “Yes the Sabbath has been unbroken and …We know what day the Sabbath is…” (post #537)
Clear replied : “My point was that you do NOT know this. You ascribe to it by tradition.” (post #538)
3rd Angel replied : “I do indeed know this and can prove it” (post #541)

Clear replied : “I am interested how you will show that any specific day (e.g. “Saturday” or “Sunday” or “Wednesday”, etc.) has been the specific Sabbath day “through time unbroken” without simply making the claim based on another set of "man made traditions" yourself.” (post #550)


3rd Angel then gave us a list of claims based on traditions that people kept a Sabbath day.
The problem is that none of his traditions proved that the Sabbath they kept was on the same 7th day of the first Sabbath in biblical Genesis.

Is there any poster reading these posts that sees any data proving that the current 7th day that 3rd Angel celebrates as the sabbath IS the same 7th day of the first sabbath in Genesis?
Is there any poster that can tell us how many days since the first Sabbath in Genesis and then can divide that number into seven and come out with any whole number? Anyone?

No one can do this since the first Sabbath is pre-history and the specific day of the week (i.e. Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, etc) that was the first Sabbath of Genesis is based on tradition and not proveable. .

This was the point that I was trying to make when I said Christians should not overstate their claims, nor should they say they can “prove” something that they are unable to prove.
Our credibility as Christians suffers when we claim we can prove something and then are unable to prove it.

If there IS any poster on the forum who thinks they can prove which day the first Sabbath in Genesis occurred on? If so, good luck in that.

Another point that I was trying to make when saying that the O.P. should not criticize other Christians for using traditions in their honoring of God when the O.P. is doing the same thing. That is, the O.P. also honors God based on tradition.

It is also bad form to mischaracterize the claims of our detractors in a misguided attempt to try to strengthen our own confidence. Post 573 claims I reject many points that I myself claimed as true. This mischaracterization of my beliefs is NOT a good way to conduct an authentic conversation.



Clear
σιδρνεφυω

 

[Katzpur]

Is there any poster reading these posts that sees any data proving that the current 7th day that 3rd Angel celebrates as the sabbath IS the same 7th day of the first sabbath in Genesis?
Is there any poster that can tell us how many days since the first Sabbath in Genesis and then can divide that number into seven and come out with any whole number? Anyone?

No one can do this since the first Sabbath is pre-history and the specific day of the week (i.e. Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, etc) that was the first Sabbath of Genesis is based on tradition and not proveable.

The OP's absurd logic also presupposes that the earth was created in six 24-hour days. Now maybe the OP believes it was, but unless a person is willing to completely ignore the scientific evidence to the contrary, it's absolute nonsense to even find the matter worth arguing. I don't know if the average Seventh Day Adventist believes in an actual six day creation, but for those of us who don't, the message to be gleaned from Genesis is that God wishes us to set aside every seventh day to rest and to worship. That is precisely what I do, and what I know you do as well.

(By the way, I hope you're in this for the long haul, because I can assure you that the OP is. He's not going to give it a rest till the day he drops dead. I got tired of playing his game and decided to just let him have the last work, since he's determined to do so anyway. In other words, I decided several weeks back that I was no longer going to feed the troll. So, if you're up for a decades long conversation, my friend, I wish you well. Enjoy Conference this weekend!)

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

The Bible IS teachings of men, it's writings of men about history, visions and doctrines. The Bible only includes small snippets allegedly of "God said this", aside from that 99% of the Bible isn't the word of God.

 

[Clear]

REGARDING THE SPECIFIC DAY OF THE WEEK FOR THE FIRST SABBATH IN GENESIS - Based on pre-history tradition or proveable?

Clear asked : “ I am wondering why the question in the O.P. assumes that either the current Saturday or the current Sunday is the actual and original 7th day that God rested on and declared holy. #536”
3rd Angel claimed : “Yes the Sabbath has been unbroken and …We know what day the Sabbath is…” (post #537)
Clear replied : “My point was that you do NOT know this. You ascribe to it by tradition.” (post #538)
3rd Angel replied : “I do indeed know this and can prove it” (post #541)

Clear replied : “I am interested how you will show that any specific day (e.g. “Saturday” or “Sunday” or “Wednesday”, etc.) has been the specific Sabbath day “through time unbroken” without simply making the claim based on another set of "man made traditions" yourself.” (post #550)


3rd Angel then gave us a list of claims based on traditions that people kept a Sabbath day.
The problem is that none of his traditions proved that the Sabbath they kept was on the same 7th day of the first Sabbath in biblical Genesis.

Is there any poster reading these posts that sees any data proving that the current 7th day that 3rd Angel celebrates as the sabbath IS the same 7th day of the first sabbath in Genesis?
Is there any poster that can tell us how many days since the first Sabbath in Genesis and then can divide that number into seven and come out with any whole number? Anyone?

No one can do this since the first Sabbath is pre-history and the specific day of the week (i.e. Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, etc) that was the first Sabbath of Genesis is based on tradition and not proveable. .

This was the point that I was trying to make when I said Christians should not overstate their claims, nor should they say they can “prove” something that they are unable to prove.
Our credibility as Christians suffers when we claim we can prove something and then are unable to prove it.

If there IS any poster on the forum who thinks they can prove which day the first Sabbath in Genesis occurred on? If so, good luck in that.

Another point that I was trying to make when saying that the O.P. should not criticize other Christians for using traditions in their honoring of God when the O.P. is doing the same thing. That is, the O.P. also honors God based on tradition.

It is also bad form to mischaracterize the claims of our detractors in a misguided attempt to try to strengthen our own confidence. Post 573 claims I reject many points that I myself claimed as true. This mischaracterization of my beliefs is NOT a good way to conduct an authentic conversation.



Clear
σιδρνεφυω

The OP's absurd logic also presupposes that the earth was created in six 24-hour days. Now maybe the OP believes it was, but unless a person is willing to completely ignore the scientific evidence to the contrary, it's absolute nonsense to even find the matter worth arguing. I don't know if the average Seventh Day Adventist believes in an actual six day creation, but for those of us who don't, the message to be gleaned from Genesis is that God wishes us to set aside every seventh day to rest and to worship. That is precisely what I do, and what I know you do as well.

(By the way, I hope you're in this for the long haul, because I can assure you that the OP is. He's not going to give it a rest till the day he drops dead. I got tired of playing his game and decided to just let him have the last work, since he's determined to do so anyway. In other words, I decided several weeks back that I was no longer going to feed the troll. So, if you're up for a decades long conversation, my friend, I wish you well. Enjoy Conference this weekend!)

Hi @Katzpur

3rd Angel already lost his debate regarding his claims he could prove the genesis 7th day pause was a Saturday and that he could prove it has been held on every Saturday since the beginning of time.

I think that the reason 3rd Angel lost this specific debate is, I think, because his claim to be able to prove a historical point extended beyond the historical data and into pre-history. In short, he promised he could prove too much. It became a bragging point lorded over other religions rather than an objective historical point.

Historians (and the rest of us) know that the available historical data will only take one so far. For example, one can theorize that Adam had blue eyes and blond hair. The problem with that theory is that, while we might imagine Adam had a certain appearance for Adam, there simply isn't enough data to tell us what color Adams eyes were, nor what color hair he had.

For 3rd Angel to claim that he could prove that the when God paused his work, was the same day as our modern Saturday, or that he could prove that this same saturday was the sabbath throughout all time was a claim that could easily be dismissed. Another problem that accompanies personal pride is that it often leads the proud to dismiss good qualities in other individuals. For example, the O.P. chastizes other Christians who may actually have more Love and Honor for God than the person who chastizes them for honoring God differently than he does. And this, when their humble and kind and loving religion may be more pure and authentic than the religion of the proud.

The point of asking posters if ANY of them believe that they or anyone else can prove that the day God paused in this work was a Saturday on a modern calendar was to show that they did not have confidence in the data they were given. IF Christians are to make any headway in helping others come to authentic faith in God, they will need to have influence and credibility. Credibility is like other resources, credibility can be squandered and lost. And one cannot gain it by dishonest claims or my mischaracterizations of other people. Forum readers are not particularly stupid and the intelligent ones see mischaracterizations for what they are.

3rd Angels claim that he could prove the 7th day of rest in Genesis was a Saturday and the current Saturday is the SAME as THAT Saturday was doomed from the beginning.

I think it is proper to honor theists who honestly love and honor and exercise faith in God whether they agree with our own theories or not.

Clear
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[3rdAngel]

REGARDING THE SPECIFIC DAY OF THE WEEK FOR THE FIRST SABBATH IN GENESIS - Based on pre-history tradition or proveable?

Clear asked : “ I am wondering why the question in the O.P. assumes that either the current Saturday or the current Sunday is the actual and original 7th day that God rested on and declared holy. #536”
3rd Angel claimed : “Yes the Sabbath has been unbroken and …We know what day the Sabbath is…” (post #537)
Clear replied : “My point was that you do NOT know this. You ascribe to it by tradition.” (post #538)
3rd Angel replied : “I do indeed know this and can prove it” (post #541)

Clear replied : “I am interested how you will show that any specific day (e.g. “Saturday” or “Sunday” or “Wednesday”, etc.) has been the specific Sabbath day “through time unbroken” without simply making the claim based on another set of "man made traditions" yourself.” (post #550)

Not really dear friend. I believe all your doing is closing your eyes and ears to the evidence that has been provided to you and making false claims and accusations you in turn cannot prove. This is simply a distraction to a debate you have already lost and a smoke screen for you to justify following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God

3rd Angel then gave us a list of claims based on traditions that people kept a Sabbath day.
The problem is that none of his traditions proved that the Sabbath they kept was on the same 7th day of the first Sabbath in biblical Genesis.

Is there any poster reading these posts that sees any data proving that the current 7th day that 3rd Angel celebrates as the sabbath IS the same 7th day of the first sabbath in Genesis?
Is there any poster that can tell us how many days since the first Sabbath in Genesis and then can divide that number into seven and come out with any whole number? Anyone?

No one can do this since the first Sabbath is pre-history and the specific day of the week (i.e. Tuesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, etc) that was the first Sabbath of Genesis is based on tradition and not proveable. .

This was the point that I was trying to make when I said Christians should not overstate their claims, nor should they say they can “prove” something that they are unable to prove.
Our credibility as Christians suffers when we claim we can prove something and then are unable to prove it.

If there IS any poster on the forum who thinks they can prove which day the first Sabbath in Genesis occurred on? If so, good luck in that.

Another point that I was trying to make when saying that the O.P. should not criticize other Christians for using traditions in their honoring of God when the O.P. is doing the same thing. That is, the O.P. also honors God based on tradition.

It is also bad form to mischaracterize the claims of our detractors in a misguided attempt to try to strengthen our own confidence. Post 573 claims I reject many points that I myself claimed as true. This mischaracterization of my beliefs is NOT a good way to conduct an authentic conversation.

Clear
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You were provided evidence as to God's seventh day Sabbath of God's 4th commandment being unbroken since the days of JESUS and the Apostles to this very present day as well as evidence showing what day is the Sabbath day already my dear friend.

Save it my dear friend. I believe all your smoke screens and false accusations prove is that you are simply seek to promote man made teachings and traditions over the Word of God. To me I believe only God's Word and true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. All I have shared here is Gods' Word and God's Word is not my words but Gods. In response you simply provide your words to deny God's Word which are not Gods' Word but your words so we will have to agree to disagree.

The evidence your rejecting is includes...

1. "SATURDAY" is the "SEVENTH DAY" of the week according to English Word definitions from the Dictionary (post # 569 linked)
2. "SATURDAY" in the Hebrew Language means the "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" (post # 569 linked)
3. JESUS and the Apostles and the church have all kept God's "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" through both the scriptures and the Historical records century by century all through time to this present day unbroken through both the Jewish nation and Sabbath keeping Christians. (starting post # 551 to post # 557)
4. The "SUNDAY" keeping christians keep the "FIRST DAY" of the week "SUNDAY" in honor the the "resurrection of JESUS" and call it the "LORDS DAY" the scriptures teach in MATTHEW 28:1 that this is the "FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" and the "DAY AFTER THE SABBATH" *MARK 16:9 (post # 563 linked 4th para)
5. The english word for our "SATURDAY" means "SEVENTH DAY or SABBATH DAY" in over 100 languages around the World. (post # 571 linked here)

I believe all of the above both individually and collectively, overwelmingly prove that "SATURDAY" is the "SEVENTH DAY" I believe your response is to simply close your eyes to the truth. You are free to believe as you wish. We will have to agree to disagree I guess

For me, dear friend, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed, ignoring it does not make it disappear.