Man vs. Beast

[bunny1ohio]

the entire animal kingdom seems to be content with what they percieve to be "life" .... generally speaking, we humans are not - just because we are more advanced, does not mean we are the best there is....

Very true... But we have no way to know if an animal wonders about why it's here or not since we don't understand them well enough...and we have no way of knowing if they are content or not, although they seem to be... except for the kicked dog who gets a treat from a kid and follows him home because he treated him better...

Okay... here's the point I was making with this thread's OP...

Human's are NO better than animals... not because of religion... science... thumbs... homosexuality... communication... we are definately worse about destroying the natural balance of things...

When asking what makes us better, I was really hoping someone would argue the human side... but that's ok... I'm for the animals in this one I never said we were the best lol... I think we are the worst actually when compared to the animal kingdom

 

[bunny1ohio]

The ability to "find religion" when faced with death.

hehehehe... so we fear death as an inevitability and try to redeem ourselves at the last minute then yes?... I can go with that... animals fear death just a s humans do, but if there is a doggie god out there... the dogs aint talkin about him to us :ignore: rofl

 

[Jaymes]

What examples are those? That's one I haven't heard yet so I'm curious....

Chimps are one of the most violent primates. They treat their females pretty poorly, and regularly rape them. Not that this is really uncommon in the animal kingdom... they also regularly war with other family groups and practice infanticide.

Dolphins are the same, with regards to rape. They practice for infanticide on porpoises, which are smaller than them. They swim up under them, and ram them and send them flying into the air, and repeat until the porpoise's organs have burst and the animal dies.

 

[bunny1ohio]

Chimps are one of the most violent primates. They treat their females pretty poorly, and regularly rape them. Not that this is really uncommon in the animal kingdom... they also regularly war with other family groups and practice infanticide.

Dolphins are the same, with regards to rape. They practice for infanticide on porpoises, which are smaller than them. They swim up under them, and ram them and send them flying into the air, and repeat until the porpoise's organs have burst and the animal dies.

You are attributing "human" traits to their actions and taknig them out of context... when and why do they rape their females? Is it during breeding season and the females need the most dominant mate and this is how it is expressed? they "war" and practice "infanticide" as a survival instinct though... a group gets too large or too many families in one place deplete the natural resources... they must "cull the herd" so to speak in order to survive... humans do it for completely different reasons.

Again though... why do they do this? Do they just not like them? Are they being "bullies"? Or is there a bigger reason?

Great replies everyone

 

[Jaymes]

You are attributing "human" traits to their actions and taknig them out of context... when and why do they rape their females? Is it during breeding season and the females need the most dominant mate and this is how it is expressed? they "war" and practice "infanticide" as a survival instinct though... a group gets too large or too many families in one place deplete the natural resources... they must "cull the herd" so to speak in order to survive... humans do it for completely different reasons.

Again though... why do they do this? Do they just not like them? Are they being "bullies"? Or is there a bigger reason?

Great replies everyone

While I'm not sure on chimps specifically, I've seen footage of gorillas luring females that are too young to breed away from the family group so that they can rape them because they're so hormonal and frustrated. Only the alpha males can mate with the females in a family group of gorillas, so the young males that aren't quite old enough to make it on their own take it out on those too young to breed and hope they don't get caught.

To quote a primatologist right quick, since my sinus medication's kicking in and I'm about to fall asleep:

"The bonobos are a wonderful species," says Wrangham. "I have been writing about them for some time because they are so fascinating. Chimpanzees occasionally have tremendous outbursts of violence rather like humans do, either things a bit like war or males battering their females and they generally have bad relationships. If they want to they can even rape their females. The bonobos however, are far less violent and the big difference is that whereas in chimpanzee life males are - all of them - socially dominant to females, with the bonobos - even though the males are still physically bigger - females rule the roost. They have taken power."

Dolphins usually practice infanticide not because of overpopulation, but because the calf isn't theirs. This is why female dolphins often mate with as many males as possible.

 

[bunny1ohio]

While I'm not sure on chimps specifically, I've seen footage of gorillas luring females that are too young to breed away from the family group so that they can rape them because they're so hormonal and frustrated. Only the alpha males can mate with the females in a family group of gorillas, so the young males that aren't quite old enough to make it on their own take it out on those too young to breed and hope they don't get caught.

To quote a primatologist right quick, since my sinus medication's kicking in and I'm about to fall asleep:

"The bonobos are a wonderful species," says Wrangham. "I have been writing about them for some time because they are so fascinating. Chimpanzees occasionally have tremendous outbursts of violence rather like humans do, either things a bit like war or males battering their females and they generally have bad relationships. If they want to they can even rape their females. The bonobos however, are far less violent and the big difference is that whereas in chimpanzee life males are - all of them - socially dominant to females, with the bonobos - even though the males are still physically bigger - females rule the roost. They have taken power."

Dolphins usually practice infanticide not because of overpopulation, but because the calf isn't theirs. This is why female dolphins often mate with as many males as possible.

INTERESTING.... so again we are on equal footing to animals even emotionally and in relationships....

With regards to the dolphin thing... I still say that is another form of population control in one way... survival of the fittest... the more dominant and aggressive the male is (killing infants not his own) the more likely his own genes are to be passed on and not another male's. It is a way natue has of weeding out the genetic pool. Cats have even been known to kill their own babies (males usually) but that is because of the blood from birth or the need to be the dominant animal and not get overrun....

This is a much better debate than I was expecting for this topic

 

[d.]

To quote a primatologist right quick, since my sinus medication's kicking in and I'm about to fall asleep:

"The bonobos are a wonderful species," says Wrangham. "I have been writing about them for some time because they are so fascinating. Chimpanzees occasionally have tremendous outbursts of violence rather like humans do, either things a bit like war or males battering their females and they generally have bad relationships. If they want to they can even rape their females. The bonobos however, are far less violent and the big difference is that whereas in chimpanzee life males are - all of them - socially dominant to females, with the bonobos - even though the males are still physically bigger - females rule the roost. They have taken power."

funny, i've been meaning to say something about the bonobos(in regard to monkeys learning language) here for a while but i'm too tired - it's 2 AM here and i'm just home from the pub - to write anything lengthy here.

anyway, i saw this documentary on language research using bonobos which was really amazing - kanzi, who the documentary focused on, had stunning language abilities which reminded me of a child or a mentally challenged person. instead of using sign language, the bonobos communicated with the research team using lexigrams.

but what struck me the most was how it became obvious that it's not just a matter of the bonobos learning 'language' (depends on your definition, sure)- and for that matter bonobos learning why they should be interested in sign language - but also a matter of people learning to understand the bonobos and their culture. and how striking the similarities between us are. the documentary showed a bonobo using scissors to cut her child's hair, a bonobo learning how to shape a rock to use as a tool, a bonobo talking on the phone and remembering the phone call the next day, and so on.

indeed i feel the more one studies animals, the more complex you realise their behavior and abilities are.

unfortunately, i can't find the documentary online. here's some links though :

kanzi

panbanisha

more apes

http://www.bonobo.org/

sadly, they're under threat of exctinction - seems like a familiar story, no?

 

[bunny1ohio]

anyway, i saw this documentary on language research using bonobos which was really amazing - kanzi, who the documentary focused on, had stunning language abilities which reminded me of a child or a mentally challenged person. instead of using sign language, the bonobos communicated with the research team using lexigrams.

but what struck me the most was how it became obvious that it's not just a matter of the bonobos learning 'language' (depends on your definition, sure)- and for that matter bonobos learning why they should be interested in sign language - but also a matter of people learning to understand the bonobos and their culture. and how striking the similarities between us are. the documentary showed a bonobo using scissors to cut her child's hair, a bonobo learning how to shape a rock to use as a tool, a bonobo talking on the phone and remembering the phone call the next day, and so on.

indeed i feel the more one studies animals, the more complex you realise their behavior and abilities are.

sadly, they're under threat of exctinction - seems like a familiar story, no?

Pardon my ignorance in this matter... but what is a lexigram?

That is intensely fascinating... wow. :clap

I agree... and the more animalistic we truly are in return

Very sad... and very familiar... mostly due to man's ignorance of our brother beasts

 

[d.]

Pardon my ignorance in this matter... but what is a lexigram?

um, sorry.

wikipedia :

A lexigram is a symbol that represents a word but is not necessarily indicative of the word by itself.

 

[bunny1ohio]

um, sorry.

wikipedia :

A lexigram is a symbol that represents a word but is not necessarily indicative of the word by itself.

Like the symbol of the fish representing Christ or Christianity? It's a fish... but the interpretation is what is conveyed. Is that about right?

 

[d.]

Like the symbol of the fish representing Christ or Christianity? It's a fish... but the interpretation is what is conveyed. Is that about right?

about - but what's important is that the symbol directly represents a word. so if the image of a fish meant specifically the word 'christ' that would be right.

the bonobos used a big sheet with lexigrams printed on to communicate. they'd point at a lexigram or several in order. i recommend anyone to read the links i provided for further info and an interesting read.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

They speak in "American Sign Language"... since when is that not language simply because it is unspoken? I agree the variety of sounds that can be communicated through human vocal cords are unique... except to parrots :areyoucra or mockingbirds... or... nevermind...

The gorillas? They don't speak American sign language, which is certainly a real language. They know a few words and commands and such...none of the grammar or syntax, which is vital to language, which American sign language does have. Y'need vocabulary and rules for a language to work...I think a lot of it is humans looking for something and seeing what they want to, honestly. The idea of talking animals is just so appealing.

I shall have to look up the bonobos when I get a chance. If they've got some basic rules that would be very neat.

 

[jeffrey]

Man vs beast. Click here

 

[jeffrey]

This one is even better! Here

 

[Booko]

BTW, the most successful species on earth, in terms of sheer numbers, is almost certainly some species of bacteria. Does that make that species of bacteria overall better than humans?

That's a scary thought. By that metric, cockroaches would be better than us too. :help:

 

[Booko]

Ducks are rapists? :areyoucra I need to look that one up too I guess... how do they "rape" another duck and when? Is it only during mating season? Or all the time for no reason except dominance.

Yup, they are indeed rapists. They are also necrophiliacs, as was posted in the necrophilia thread, and as I observed just 2 days ago when one of my runner ducks died from complications of avian flu and another duck was having a bit of fun. It's also a matter of dominance sometimes. When I put 2 flocks together, the males attack and/or hump each other to determine, uh, who's on top.

They call them birdbrains for good reason.

 

[steelblue75]

Yup, they are indeed rapists. They are also necrophiliacs, as was posted in the necrophilia thread, and as I observed just 2 days ago when one of my runner ducks died from complications of avian flu and another duck was having a bit of fun. It's also a matter of dominance sometimes. When I put 2 flocks together, the males attach and/or hump each other to determine, uh, who's on top.

They call them birdbrains for good reason.

*looks at avatar* does this mean im a homosexual necrophiliac?

 

[Booko]

Human's are NO better than animals... not because of religion... science... thumbs... homosexuality... communication... we are definately worse about destroying the natural balance of things...

When asking what makes us better, I was really hoping someone would argue the human side... but that's ok... I'm for the animals in this one I never said we were the best lol... I think we are the worst actually when compared to the animal kingdom

OK, maybe this is more what you were looking for:

When animals act according to instinct, they are acting in their animal nature, which is fine.

Humans, while they have an animal nature, also have a human nature. For us to act as animals is "unworthy," and it's exactly when we follow our animal nature that the destruction begins.

Animals have no choice about being animals. We do have a choice. We can choose to act like animals, or act according to our human, or spiritual nature. And yes, when we act like animals, then we are indeed the worst of the animal kingdom.


Some other possibly related stuff:

"All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 214)


"MAN AND NATURE

From the time of the creation of Adam to this day there have been two pathways in the world of humanity; one the natural or materialistic, the other the religious or spiritual. The pathway of nature is the pathway of the animal realm. The animal acts in accordance with the requirements of nature, follows its own instincts and desires. Whatever its impulses and proclivities may be it has the liberty to gratify them; yet it is a captive of nature. It cannot deviate in the least degree from the road nature has established. It is utterly minus spiritual susceptibilities, ignorant of divine religion and without knowledge of the kingdom of God. The animal possesses no power of ideation or conscious intelligence; it is a captive of the senses and deprived of that which lies beyond them. It is subject to what the eye sees, the ear hears, the nostrils sense, the taste detects and touch reveals. These sensations are acceptable and sufficient for the animal. But that which is beyond the range of the senses, that realm of phenomena through which the conscious pathway to the kingdom of God leads, the world of spiritual susceptibilities and divine religion, -- of these the animal is completely unaware, for in its highest station it is a captive of nature.

One of the strangest things witnessed is that the materialists of today are proud of their natural instincts and bondage. They state that nothing is entitled to belief and acceptance except that which is sensible or tangible. By their own statements they are captives of nature, unconscious of the spiritual world, uninformed of the divine Kingdom and unaware of heavenly bestowals. If this be a virtue the animal has attained it to a superlative degree, for the animal is absolutely ignorant of the realm of spirit and out of touch with the inner world of conscious realization. The animal would agree with the materialist in denying the existence of that which transcends the senses. If we admit that being limited to the plane of the senses is a virtue the animal is indeed more virtuous than man, for it is entirely bereft of that which lies beyond, absolutely oblivious of the kingdom of God and its traces whereas God has deposited within the human creature an illimitable power by which he can rule the world of nature."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 234)

 

[Booko]

*looks at avatar* does this mean im a homosexual necrophiliac?

No, I think you must be a transspecies.

I've been chuckling at your avatar for days now. :biglaugh:

 

[steelblue75]

No, I think you must be a transspecies.

I've been chuckling at your avatar for days now. :biglaugh:

transspecies....... great im a male dog that quacks like a duck and wears high heels and stockings...... no wonder im confused:help: