Mandatory Vaccinations?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

LOL....perhaps I should have prefaced that with "its supposed to prevent you from dying" but again, unless you have specific vaccines for the variants, will the initial jab for the first presentation of the virus protect you from the variants that have surfaced since then? Will it prevent death from the variants? Its a legitimate question surely?

I am reading now where the new Novavax is supposed to protect from the variants. It is not approved yet....but it seems to be the only one making such claims to date.
Novavax COVID-19 Vaccine Demonstrates 89.3% Efficacy in UK Phase 3 Trial | Novavax Inc. - IR Site



If you say so....I will reserve judgment for myself whilst I wait for more of the negative reactions to occur and be dealt with. I am not keen to be a guinea pig....you can do whatever you wish...its your body. I will not ever put myself or anyone else at risk by being complacent about this issue. But I am mindful that vaccinations cannot be reversed. The decision you make is with you for the rest of your life. I am not confident about what is happening right now....and I can't promise that I ever will be.

EDIT to add: that this is my personal view and is in no way a reflection of the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. We are left to make these personal medical decisions for ourselves.

Still, it is (to me, at least) an interesting fact that nearly all of the deaths from COVID-19 in both the United States and Canada (99.2%) are in unvaccinated people.

I think a statistic like that would bear thinking about.

99% Of People Killed By Covid Last Month Were Unvaccinated, Analysis Finds

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's the context. If there wasn't coercion and push for the vaccine, I think they'd probably be a bit more willing to take it per their job. In and of itself, though, I don't agree people need to lose their job because of this.

The COVID vaccine situation is much more charged than just any vaccine required due to change of rules. It's assuming that context doesn't apply and people just should follow "or" loose their job-coercion.

What would happen if majority of the workers left their hospital job (and any job for that matter)?

How would the hospitals and government for that matter handle that immediate lost?

I also wonder if provaxxers would laugh at the people who lost their jobs-even more so catch COVID.



You mean more there was a smoking policy and now there is none and people shouldn't be upset just the same as the vaccine policy from where there wasn't one until required?

Smoking wouldn't be a good example for vaccines. It's better argument for masks because in both cases, people can stop smoking or wear masks-it's versatile.

A lot of the arguments with vaccines is it's not versatile. They actually inject you with it (however it works). It's one thing to be told to wear clothes when walking in a store and a whole 'nother to say you have to take X medication before coming into the store.

That's the difference.



You get my point, though?

I'm talking about ethics. A doctor won't tell you to get vaccinated if he knows you have a condition that prevents it and he won't push it on you if you believe it's not in your best interests.

The point is that "experts" weigh the situation before telling people to take the vaccine.

Provaxxers push it on people without thinking of any other factors involve...yet they say they are listening to the experts.



They "may" bear the consequences (must sounds like fear-it's not definite-we just don't know). They put themselves at "a" risk of catching COVID, but the "level" of risk depends on the person not whether or not he or she took the vaccine in and of itself.

The problem is if Joe (going off of this point only not the OP), if Joe lived isolated with vary little population which there are many in the States or small population in some states and decides not to take the vaccine while another person in a heavily populated area decides not to take the vaccine, provaxxers will treat them the same-saying they refuse, not thinking of others, selfish, and ignorant.

Wouldn't they need to know more about these two people to make a determination whether or not they "warrant" those accusations (if one likes) and not make a blanketed statement just because someone says he or she is not vaccinated?



Because you disagree with me?

Double standard doesn't imply attacking a person's intellect (it's not attacking the person, just the argument).

I would love for you to read this Wikipedia article on the eradiction of diseases through vaccination. Smallpox was eradicted world-wide, by the use of mandatory vaccination. The last human to get smallpox was a Somali boy in 1977 -- and everybody he was in contact with was tracked down and revaccinated. And the world has been without smallpox since. The article talks about the war on quite a few other scourges of the past. I have known a couple of people crippled for life from polio, which no longer exists in the west, for example. Because we made the vaccine mandatory.

Maybe some people don't think that saving thousands -- nay millions -- of lives is worth giving up a small matter of choice for. I personally do. Big time.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's a funny thing, to me, this interminable argument about vaccinations and "my right not to." I mean -- it's funny because we're arguing it here, on Religious Forums.

Vaccines have been proven to help us eradicate the diseases that plague and kill us, yet many don't think that they should "have to" take part in that great effort. But as John 15:13 says:

"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Yet hordes of Christians won't even roll up their sleeves.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would love for you to read this Wikipedia article on the eradiction of diseases through vaccination. Smallpox was eradicted world-wide, by the use of mandatory vaccination. The last human to get smallpox was a Somali boy in 1977 -- and everybody he was in contact with was tracked down and revaccinated. And the world has been without smallpox since. The article talks about the war on quite a few other scourges of the past. I have known a couple of people crippled for life from polio, which no longer exists in the west, for example. Because we made the vaccine mandatory.

Maybe some people don't think that saving thousands -- nay millions -- of lives is worth giving up a small matter of choice for. I personally do. Big time.
View attachment 52039

I actually don't believe people who don't take the vaccine believe it's not saving lives. I can't get that much information off of why a minority of people don't take it just because they don't. It's mind-reading and assuming I know them better than they know themselves and loved ones. Someone in France who doesn't take the vaccine, I wouldn't make an judgement but if I were like provaxxers and my loved one didn't take it, I'd have more emotional input.

Shock appeal isn't something that influences me. It's counterproductive. It's kind of like how they use late term abortion pictures as proof that abortion is wrong (using this as an example).

There are ignorant people who took the vaccine maybe because they were told to. No provaxxer says to them they should have looked first before jumping the gun.

 

[McBell]

I mentioned "some" nurses are not taking the vaccine and I found that interesting.

Yes, but you further claimed "for valid intelligent reasons".
So how about a flat out answer to a flat out question?

Other than that, you'd have to rephrase.

What specific "valid intelligent reasons" did some nurses "probably" not get the vaccine?

My statement wasn't a personal statement, but it seems you implied my some meant all.

No idea how or why you would jump to the conclusion that it is personal.


Oh, and you did not answer the question:

Should I assume that, simply because she was a nurse, the health risks of smoking aren't as I had been taught?
​

Merely claiming it is a fallacy does not work.
Please explain, lieu of answering it, WHAT fallacy it is and WHY it is said fallacy.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Actually, this is a new point to be honest.

"There are ignorant people who took the vaccine maybe because they were told to. No provaxxer says to them they should have looked first before jumping the gun."

Have provaxxers told their loved ones to make a decision based on research and thought first before taking the vaccine.... if they did, what would they have done if their loved one chose not to?

Did people take this vaccine because they All looked it up, or maybe there were other push-factors that made them decide without forethought?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, but you further claimed "for valid intelligent reasons".
So how about a flat out answer to a flat out question?

Pro and antivaxxers (generalizing) take the vaccine for valid reasons. Whether or not we agree with their reasoning doesn't make it more or less valid.

Also, if I said provaxxers took the vaccine for valid reasons, no one would question me. If I said antivaxxers chose not to take it for valid reasons, I'm questioned. So, I think you're looking for an answer you agree with not a logical answer in itself.

What specific "valid intelligent reasons" did some nurses "probably" not get the vaccine?

Valid reasons to take the vaccine, because one is at high risk (based on factors like age, location, general health)

Valid reasons not to, because one isn't at high risk (based on factors like age, location, and general health)

No idea how or why you would jump to the conclusion that it is personal.


Oh, and you did not answer the question:

Should I assume that, simply because she was a nurse, the health risks of smoking aren't as I had been taught?
Merely claiming it is a fallacy does not work.
Please explain, lieu of answering it, WHAT fallacy it is and WHY it is said fallacy.

The example he gave was a personal example.

I usually don't debate too much with personal examples, because the person posting would be more defensive cause of the connection. If it was something general, that would be different.

The fallacy, the first sentence in that post, is generalizing. Using that one example to apply to all people in similar circumstances. It's an observation. A lot of people make decisions off of fallacies. Pointing it out doesn't make the opinion bad or good.

 

[McBell]

Pro and antivaxxers (generalizing) take the vaccine for valid reasons. Whether or not we agree with their reasoning doesn't make it more or less valid.

So you shoot yourself in the foot making the term "valid" useless?

Wow.
I honestly did not see that one coming.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So you shoot yourself in the foot making the term "valid" useless?

Wow.
I honestly did not see that one coming.

Huh??

No need for sarcasm here. Expand your point.

 

[Suave]

What valid intelligent reasons? Please be specific.

It's a funny thing, to me, this interminable argument about vaccinations and "my right not to." I mean -- it's funny because we're arguing it here, on Religious Forums.

Vaccines have been proven to help us eradicate the diseases that plague and kill us, yet many don't think that they should "have to" take part in that great effort. But as John 15:13 says:

"Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Yet hordes of Christians won't even roll up their sleeves.

"The inventor of mRNA vaccines said 'the government is not being transparent about the risks' of the COVID-19 vaccine after YouTube deleted a video where he discussed potential risks for young adults and teens.

Dr. Robert Malone, who invented the mRNA technology that's now being used in the COVID-19 vaccine, told Fox's Tucker Carlson on Wednesday night that there isn't enough data about the risks for these age groups and doesn't believe they should be forced to get vaccinated.

'I don't think the benefits outweigh the risks in that cohort,' said Malone, referring to people in the 18 to 22 age bracket, 'but unfortunately the risk-benefit analysis is not being done.'

'My concern is I know there are risks but we don't have access to the data,' Malone said. 'And so, I am of the opinion that people have the right to decide whether to accept vaccines or not, especially since these are experimental vaccines.'"

mRNA inventor says young adults shouldn't have to get COVID vaccine

 

[Suave]

 

[Deeje]

Still, it is (to me, at least) an interesting fact that nearly all of the deaths from COVID-19 in both the United States and Canada (99.2%) are in unvaccinated people.

I think a statistic like that would bear thinking about.

99% Of People Killed By Covid Last Month Were Unvaccinated, Analysis Finds

The story I am hearing is not the one broadcast on a controlled media and they are much closer to home. My next door neighbors had the jab three weeks ago and the wife has has two trips to hospital since....once with a massive nose bleed that required an ambulance in the middle of the night when she lost a large amount of blood, and the second trip with serious heart inflammation, and for which she is still in hospital, neither of these are problems she has had before. Will they be linked to the vaccination? Of course not.

Friends are reporting similar experiences with family members and close friends. One friend's father almost died from blood clots. You won’t hear much about them on the news...its all downplayed. All we hear on the media is scare tactics, but there are no long term studies done and they have indemnified themselves against unforeseen problems down the track. What does that tell you? They can cause you grievous bodily harm and you can't sue them???.....good grief!

Most people who get Covid recover at home like they would with the seasonal flu. This SARS Covid 19 virus is very contagious, no doubt about it, but is it as deadly as we have been led to believe? Follow the money trail and see who is profiting from this pandemi that has changed the world for the foreseeable future. People are being led to trust in a medical system whose sole base is profit. Untested vaccines are dangerous for many reasons.

"As an infectious disease physician, I am often asked this question. The answer is yes. If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you should get tested for COVID-19 even if you are fully vaccinated. You won’t be at high risk for hospitalization or severe disease, but if you are infected you may pass the virus to an unvaccinated person, who could then get very sick."
I’m fully vaccinated but feel sick – should I get tested for COVID-19?

There are quite a few people who have tested positive for Covid despite being fully vaccinated. As stated above, they tell you that the vaccine will not stop you getting Covid, but will just lessen the symptoms....yet the one case in Australia in recent days, that has required hospitalization, the authorities refuse to say whether this person was vaccinated, and what age group they were.....why the mystery? If they were UNvaccinated, we would surely have heard about it.

You get told what they want you to hear......believe them if you wish. I will take my chances with the virus because I honestly believe that the world’s population is being treated like guinea pigs. You can’t unvaccnate people. Once you have it, if there are long term problems, which are already surfacing, there is no way to undo it. Do you understand what that means?

Those who are experts in this medical field who are sounding the warning are being gagged. Studies that were done before the mRNA vaccine was even released were warning of unexpected outcomes....but they were never made available to anyone outside of the “fraternity” who manufacture these vaccines. Why?
Astra Zeneka answered that question.

 

[tytlyf]

What's your point? 0.00001% of people developed complications?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The story I am hearing is not the one broadcast on a controlled media and they are much closer to home. My next door neighbors had the jab three weeks ago and the wife has has two trips to hospital since....once with a massive nose bleed that required an ambulance in the middle of the night when she lost a large amount of blood, and the second trip with serious heart inflammation, and for which she is still in hospital, neither of these are problems she has had before. Will they be linked to the vaccination? Of course not.

Friends are reporting similar experiences with family members and close friends. One friend's father almost died from blood clots. You won’t hear much about them on the news...its all downplayed. All we hear on the media is scare tactics, but there are no long term studies done and they have indemnified themselves against unforeseen problems down the track. What does that tell you? They can cause you grievous bodily harm and you can't sue them???.....good grief!

Most people who get Covid recover at home like they would with the seasonal flu. This SARS Covid 19 virus is very contagious, no doubt about it, but is it as deadly as we have been led to believe? Follow the money trail and see who is profiting from this pandemi that has changed the world for the foreseeable future. People are being led to trust in a medical system whose sole base is profit. Untested vaccines are dangerous for many reasons.

"As an infectious disease physician, I am often asked this question. The answer is yes. If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you should get tested for COVID-19 even if you are fully vaccinated. You won’t be at high risk for hospitalization or severe disease, but if you are infected you may pass the virus to an unvaccinated person, who could then get very sick."
I’m fully vaccinated but feel sick – should I get tested for COVID-19?

There are quite a few people who have tested positive for Covid despite being fully vaccinated. As stated above, they tell you that the vaccine will not stop you getting Covid, but will just lessen the symptoms....yet the one case in Australia in recent days, that has required hospitalization, the authorities refuse to say whether this person was vaccinated, and what age group they were.....why the mystery? If they were UNvaccinated, we would surely have heard about it.

You get told what they want you to hear......believe them if you wish. I will take my chances with the virus because I honestly believe that the world’s population is being treated like guinea pigs. You can’t unvaccnate people. Once you have it, if there are long term problems, which are already surfacing, there is no way to undo it. Do you understand what that means?

Those who are experts in this medical field who are sounding the warning are being gagged. Studies that were done before the mRNA vaccine was even released were warning of unexpected outcomes....but they were never made available to anyone outside of the “fraternity” who manufacture these vaccines. Why?
Astra Zeneka answered that question.

Look at you! Just exactly what I've been saying: "The stories I've been hearing...." Did you go to the science sites, the hospitals, the medical profession? Nope -- stories you've been hearing, and there you go.

Or this quote: "Those who are experts in this medical field who are sounding the warning are being gagged." Did you name one? Provide a link? Show us where you got this "data?" Nope -- you just say it and presume we should all accept it because you are totally honest, unbiased, and very wise. NO!

Why do you appear to have such a deep, deep aversion for providing evidence for the things that you assert?

 

[Suave]

The story I am hearing is not the one broadcast on a controlled media and they are much closer to home. My next door neighbors had the jab three weeks ago and the wife has has two trips to hospital since....once with a massive nose bleed that required an ambulance in the middle of the night when she lost a large amount of blood, and the second trip with serious heart inflammation, and for which she is still in hospital, neither of these are problems she has had before. Will they be linked to the vaccination? Of course not.

Friends are reporting similar experiences with family members and close friends. One friend's father almost died from blood clots. You won’t hear much about them on the news...its all downplayed. All we hear on the media is scare tactics, but there are no long term studies done and they have indemnified themselves against unforeseen problems down the track. What does that tell you? They can cause you grievous bodily harm and you can't sue them???.....good grief!

Most people who get Covid recover at home like they would with the seasonal flu. This SARS Covid 19 virus is very contagious, no doubt about it, but is it as deadly as we have been led to believe? Follow the money trail and see who is profiting from this pandemi that has changed the world for the foreseeable future. People are being led to trust in a medical system whose sole base is profit. Untested vaccines are dangerous for many reasons.

"As an infectious disease physician, I am often asked this question. The answer is yes. If you have symptoms of COVID-19, you should get tested for COVID-19 even if you are fully vaccinated. You won’t be at high risk for hospitalization or severe disease, but if you are infected you may pass the virus to an unvaccinated person, who could then get very sick."
I’m fully vaccinated but feel sick – should I get tested for COVID-19?

There are quite a few people who have tested positive for Covid despite being fully vaccinated. As stated above, they tell you that the vaccine will not stop you getting Covid, but will just lessen the symptoms....yet the one case in Australia in recent days, that has required hospitalization, the authorities refuse to say whether this person was vaccinated, and what age group they were.....why the mystery? If they were UNvaccinated, we would surely have heard about it.

You get told what they want you to hear......believe them if you wish. I will take my chances with the virus because I honestly believe that the world’s population is being treated like guinea pigs. You can’t unvaccnate people. Once you have it, if there are long term problems, which are already surfacing, there is no way to undo it. Do you understand what that means?

Those who are experts in this medical field who are sounding the warning are being gagged. Studies that were done before the mRNA vaccine was even released were warning of unexpected outcomes....but they were never made available to anyone outside of the “fraternity” who manufacture these vaccines. Why?
Astra Zeneka answered that question.

Please let us consider the dangerous health risks of heart inflammation among young adults being mRNA vaccinated might get downplayed while the health dangers of them contracting SARS-CoV2 might be overexaggerated.

 

[Suave]

What's your point? 0.00001% of people developed complications?

Please cite reference source.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Those who are experts in this medical field who are sounding the warning are being gagged. Studies that were done before the mRNA vaccine was even released were warning of unexpected outcomes....but they were never made available to anyone outside of the “fraternity” who manufacture these vaccines. Why?
Astra Zeneka answered that question.

Example of what I just said -- please provide citations for those claims that we can all follow up. We want to know the truth -- not just your claims to truth.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Please let us consider the dangerous health risks of heart inflammation among young adults being mRNA vaccinated might get downplayed while the health dangers of them contracting SARS-CoV2 might be overexaggerated.

All right, I'm considering it. Myo-carditis and peri-carditis do happen (even without the vaccine), and there are well-established protocols for dealing with them -- almost 100% without serious or lasting effects. There was, on the other hand, a fairly young man who didn't bother with the vaccine, caught the virus -- and now has two new lungs. He will never be the same nor ever up to what he could have been.

Comment?

 

[Deeje]

Example of what I just said -- please provide citations for those claims that we can all follow up. We want to know the truth -- not just your claims to truth.

I already tried that but they got taken down.....you aren't allowed to talk about these things apparently. You have only one side of the story, and no one is permitted to hear that it might be the wrong side.......too late for those who have already had the jab that they were led to believe was safe......no one has proven to date that there aren't any long term and potentially devastating outcomes that may be awaiting an unsuspecting public in the future.

YouTube is the only place where a voice can be heard but be quick, because the censors will be on the job making sure that as few people as possible see it.

The last one I posted here, (which was quickly removed) was from the inventor of mRNA technology himself admitting that there were studies done in Japan (even before this vaccine was released) proving that there was a possibility of women getting unwanted outcomes down the track where lipids (the vaccine's delivery system) were found concentrated in the ovaries of women who had the mRNA vaccine......and they also found traces of these vaccine components in the bone marrow, where this doctor said it should have stayed in the muscle, but had traveled via the blood stream to places it was not supposed to go. When you hear these things from the experts and they are withheld from the public, what do you think might be the motive?
I will be surprised if my comments here remain.....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I already tried that but they got taken down.....you aren't allowed to talk about these things apparently. You have only one side of the story, and no one is permitted to hear that it might be the wrong side.......too late for those who have already had the jab that they were led to believe was safe......no one has proven to date that there aren't any long term and potentially devastating outcomes that may be awaiting an unsuspecting public in the future.

YouTube is the only place where a voice can be heard but be quick, because the censors will be on the job making sure that as few people as possible see it.

The last one I posted here, (which was quickly removed) was from the inventor of mRNA technology himself admitting that there were studies done in Japan (even before this vaccine was released) proving that there was a possibility of women getting unwanted outcomes down the track where lipids (the vaccine's delivery system) were found concentrated in the ovaries of women who had the mRNA vaccine......and they also found traces of these vaccine components in the bone marrow, where this doctor said it should have stayed in the muscle, but had traveled via the blood stream to places it was not supposed to go. When you hear these things from the experts and they are withheld from the public, what do you think might be the motive?
I will be surprised if my comments here remain.....

Goodness gracious!