Mandatory Vaccinations?

[Twilight Hue]

What? Why do you say that?

You are aware of herd immunity and how it works, right?

Sure.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sure.

So then you already know why your comment doesn't make sense.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Then it defeats the whole point of getting a vaccine.

It does not.

If I am 0% immune to a disease I can catch it very easily. There it just comes down to contact avoidance. If I am 90% immune that means that even if people are exposed only 10% will become infected and spread the disease.

So in a world where the majority are vaccinated the chances of the infection circulating through a community is low. Especially if social distancing methods are kept in addition to the vaccination.

In a world where only a few or even half are vaccinated they still pose a threat to the % failure chance of those already inoculated. Though the bigger focus will be on those that can't be vaccinated for whatever reason or those who are immune compromised and the vaccine isn't a catch all.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is. They're testing it on children now.

Would people still vaccinate if it just came out?

I don't think many cared about it being experimental cause of other factors like loved ones sick, job, and high risk but it still is experimental

That's funny -- "still experimental." How big an experiment would you like?

As of June 5 (5 days ago), more than 894,000,000 people around the world have received at least one dose, and 458,000,000 (including myself, I'm happy to say) have had both and are now fully vaccinated.

You know what? That's a pretty darn big number of tests, to be considering this still "experimental."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We have a 'head honcho' here in Australia who is "the public voice" for vaccination......he admitted on a breakfast TV show that the current vaccine was not effective against the variants, which are more deadly and contagious than the original. He must have been gagged because I have never heard him say it again. If that is the case, then why is it being pushed as if it covers all of them?

If you have to have a separate flu shot because it isn't effective against last years strain....what is the deal with this vaccine, which is also for a corona virus? It doesn't add up for me.

You didn't answer my question: what testing do you think was skipped for any of the vaccines on the market?

Please be specific, and please don't sidestep it this time.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's funny -- "still experimental." How big an experiment would you like?

As of June 5 (5 days ago), more than 894,000,000 people around the world have received at least one dose, and 458,000,000 (including myself, I'm happy to say) have had both and are now fully vaccinated.

You know what? That's a pretty darn big number of tests, to be considering this still "experimental."

It is. What's wrong with it being experimental?

FDA didn't approve it with long testing. It was approved by emergency... which means they are still learning more about it-aka its still experimental.

COVID-19 Vaccination

We're still learning about the vaccine. What's wrong with that?

 

[Vinayaka]

That's funny -- "still experimental." How big an experiment would you like?

As of June 5 (5 days ago), more than 894,000,000 people around the world have received at least one dose, and 458,000,000 (including myself, I'm happy to say) have had both and are now fully vaccinated.

You know what? That's a pretty darn big number of tests, to be considering this still "experimental."

I heard that in the year 2150, after going through 7 generations, polio will re-emerge even more dangerous because of the secret mutations that lay hidden in stiff muscles. (Fiction to illustrate the point.)

I have come to believe that there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY we will be able to change some minds on this. I get to book my second dose next Monday. Will probably wait a day though so that the poor girl doing the booking doesn't feel quite so overwhelmed. Here in Alberta the esteemed leader put the number for nest stage of re-opening at 70% first doses. But we're kind of stuck around 68. I guess he didn't figure on nearly a third of the population being that stubborn.

 

[metis]

I used to work in a hospital, and universally vaccinations are required, especially the TB vaccine. I don't see this as any different.

Absolutely. As an educator who started my career in 1967, I had to have my shots updated, plus we all had to have a TB shot where I worked. After all, we don't live in a "cocoon" away from other people.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Nobody should be forced to take medications against their will. Especially experimental ones.

Nobody is forced to take a vaccine. You are free to refuse.

But you are not free of the consequences of your decision, which may cost you friends, your job, and/or your life.

Do you consider that unfair? Even if you do, that's rules of the game. Better to know that moving forward than discover it the hard way, don't you think?

My opinion is if your vaccinated, then you have nothing to worry about from those who are not, so it should be a moot issue.

But your opinion won't inform their choices, and their opinion may not be the same as yours. The unvaccinated pose a greater risk to both the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike, since they are more likely to be infected at any given time.

One should get the vaccine so they won't be shunned?

If that matters to them, they should consider that in their cost-benefit analysis of getting or refusing the vaccine. We've resumed our pre-COVID pot luck gatherings at our home now that everybody over age 60 that wanted a vaccine is fully vaccinated. This is a local gathering of four expat couples, who get together once a week, each contributing a dish. One couple chose to not be vaccinated. By popular demand, they were replaced with a vaccinated couple. You can imagine how poorly they took that. The vaccinated agreed that they didn't want to be around people that are over ten times likelier to be infected than the rest of us.

There's a second reason to shun such people. Why would I want such a person in my life? Yeah, the people that had to leave our dinner group were good cooks, but that just isn't enough any more. And they were angry that we discriminated against them for not getting a vaccine, which they insisted as some here have already done that that was their right. Nobody disagreed. But they also thought that we should accept them as well, and were angry when we said no, basically saying back to them what they say to everybody else - no, we won't risk our health for your benefit.

And yes, it's their right, but maybe they don't know how that choice is viewed by others. I view taking this vaccine as a civic duty. Everybody has a duty to contribute to herd immunity and reduce the chance that they will acquire and spread a more contagious and lethal variant to others. Shirking that duty out of fear is does not paint such a person in a very flattering light, and to my way of thinking, is really no different and no more admirable than cheating on your taxes, which steals from everybody else, or being a draft dodger during a defensive war, which increases the risk to everybody else. Don't expect to be respected any more than if you are on the sex registry. None of those things speak well about character.

Yes, I understand that the people who are screaming about their rights will resent the rest exercising theirs, but isn't that also indicative that these are not people you want to be with? How selfish is that? Why would anybody with higher standards, more courage, and a social conscience, want to spend time with selfish people only interested in their own rights? Isn't such a person advertising that they can't be counted on to consider your interests? That is one of the prices they will pay. Hopefully, they are willingly paying that price rather than discovering too late that they will be found unacceptable to the the people who disapprove.

I think it came as a shock to the couple we excluded from our weekly gatherings. They apparently had no idea when they told us they weren't vaccinated or planning to become so, how that would be received, and the social consequences it might have for them. It would have been better for them had they known.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My opinion is if your vaccinated, then you have nothing to worry about from those who are not, so it should be a moot issue.

IIRC, you also expressed this opinion before, and were corrected on your mistaken thinking before.

... so why do you still hold it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But you are not free of the consequences of your decision, which may cost you friends, your job, and/or your life.

This is coercion by strict definition. "Oh, you fine to do whatever you want, but..."

If that matters to them, they should consider that in their cost-benefit analysis of getting or refusing the vaccine. We've resumed our pre-COVID pot luck gatherings at our home now that everybody over age 60 that wanted a vaccine is fully vaccinated. This is a local gathering of four expat couples, who get together once a week, each contributing a dish. One couple chose to not be vaccinated. By popular demand, they were replaced with a vaccinated couple. You can imagine how poorly they took that. The vaccinated agreed that they didn't want to be around people that are over ten times likelier to be infected than the rest of us.

Goodness gracious.

I honestly don't know what to say to that. That's horrible. I wonder if they did that with the AIDs pandemic. Told people they had to "sit at the back of the bus" or whatever. That's terrible. I can't imagine anyone can do such a thing.

There's a second reason to shun such people. Why would I want such a person in my life? Yeah, the people that had to leave our dinner group were good cooks, but that just isn't enough any more. And they were angry that we discriminated against them for not getting a vaccine, which they insisted as some here have already done that that was their right. Nobody disagreed. But they also thought that we should accept them as well, and were angry when we said no, basically saying back to them what they say to everybody else - no, we won't risk our health for your benefit.

Wow. I don't know. Sounds like your priorities and definition about caring about people are different than mine.

And yes, it's their right, but maybe they don't know how that choice is viewed by others. I view taking this vaccine as a civic duty. Everybody has a duty to contribute to herd immunity and reduce the chance that they will acquire and spread a more contagious and lethal variant to others. Shirking that duty out of fear is does not paint such a person in a very flattering light, and to my way of thinking, is really no different and no more admirable than cheating on your taxes, which steals from everybody else, or being a draft dodger during a defensive war, which increases the risk to everybody else. Don't expect to be respected any more than if you are on the sex registry. None of those things speak well about character.

Shrugs. I'm glad my best friend of 13 years who was vaccinated doesn't divorce me as a friend just because I decide not to get vaccinated. Makes me think if people have contagious diseases, does their friends judge them by how they take care of their own health and such. Terrible.

Yes, I understand that the people who are screaming about their rights will resent the rest exercising theirs, but isn't that also indicative that these are not people you want to be with? How selfish is that? Why would anybody with higher standards, more courage, and a social conscience, want to spend time with selfish people only interested in their own rights? Isn't such a person advertising that they can't be counted on to consider your interests? That is one of the prices they will pay. Hopefully, they are willingly paying that price rather than discovering too late that they will be found unacceptable to the the people who disapprove.

I don't believe either side is selfish. I do believe unvaccinated are the victims going off this post.

I think it came as a shock to the couple we excluded from our weekly gatherings. They apparently had no idea when they told us they weren't vaccinated or planning to become so, how that would be received, and the social consequences it might have for them. It would have been better for them had they known.

Where would you want unvaccinated people to go once you kick them off the bus and out of town?

Trail of Tears?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Perfectly immune people can't transmit a virus. Do you think vaccines give perfect immunity?

BTW: these are the sorts of mistakes in thinking you were corrected on last time. Have you forgotten?

Refresh my memory if you like.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is coercion by strict definition. "Oh, you fine to do whatever you want, but..."

Do you think that everyone is entitled to their jobs, friends, etc., or only anti-vaxxers?

I don't believe either side is selfish. I do believe unvaccinated are the victims going off this post.

For the anti-vaxxers to be selfish, they'd have to be acting in their own best interest. I think "foolish" or "reckless" are better terms for their position.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Refresh my memory if you like.

Sure. Let's try.

Start by answering my question: do you think that vaccines give perfect immunity?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Where would you want unvaccinated people to go once you kick them off the bus and out of town?

Trail of Tears?

Judging by what's happening around here, they'll have plenty of like-minded friends at their church (until the inevitable outbreak, of course).

 

[Suave]

While this will likely go to court experts seem to think that requiring vaccinations for employment at a given place will be legal. Does this only affect hospitals and healthcare workers or is this a universal option? Should an employer be able to fire you based on your vaccination status?

Important late breaking news update! "A higher-than-expected number of young men have experienced heart inflammation after their second dose of the mRNA COVID-19 shots from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna, according to data from two vaccine safety monitoring systems, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said on Thursday."

 

[Friend of Mara]

Important late breaking news update! "A higher-than-expected number of young men have experienced heart inflammation after their second dose of the mRNA COVID-19 shots from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna, according to data from two vaccine safety monitoring systems, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said on Thursday."

Can I get a link to that? Not that I don't believe it because it sounds incredibly plausible but I would like to read it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do you think that everyone is entitled to their jobs, friends, etc., or only anti-vaxxers?

Provaxxers and antivaxxers (and those who are indifferent to vaccinations) all are entitled to jobs. No segregation in my head.

For the anti-vaxxers to be selfish, they'd have to be acting in their own best interest. I think "foolish" or "reckless" are better terms for their position.

Depends on the person you speak with. Not all people who decide not to take the vaccine are against it. So, no. They're not foolish. Now if they did have the virus and was around people, I'd say that's foolish behavior and decision. But from a probability? I'd have to be at a very high risk area to have some sort of opinion against people who increase the probability I may catch the disease. But in general, no. I don't see them as foolish. Provaxxers, though, do tend to have foolish opinions. They're not justified by saying you "care about others." Obviously, some of you don't-only those who agree with you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Judging by what's happening around here, they'll have plenty of like-minded friends at their church (until the inevitable outbreak, of course).

That's a yes?

 

[Suave]

Can I get a link to that? Not that I don't believe it because it sounds incredibly plausible but I would like to read it.

CDC says heart inflammation cases in ages 16 to 24 higher than expected after second vaccine shot – Breaking News Day