Mankind's rebellion against God

[Rinchen]

An open mind is a good thing....it means not making assumptions about what others believe until you check. I ditched Christendom decades ago.....it was the best thing I have ever done.

I was originally commenting to a person who defines a part of their beliefs as "Mainline Baptist Christianity", but I do see your point.

 

[RedDragon94]

For Adam and Eve, it seems....

No, life wasn't bland for them. They knew God face to face. Life is bland for you.

 

[Rinchen]

No, life wasn't bland for them. They knew God face to face. Life is bland for you.

Well, knowing god face to face wasn't enough for them to follow his will I guess.

 

[RedDragon94]

Well, knowing god face to face wasn't enough for them to follow his will I guess.

Nope, it wasn't. But they could have chosen otherwise, they chose not to. That doesn't keep God away from humanity though. After all, God is present everywhere. I think that most Christians might be wrong about hell, it doesn't make sense for King David to say that God is in Sheol if hell is separation from God. Were you ever a Christian?

 

[Rinchen]

Nope, it wasn't. But they could have chosen otherwise, they chose not to. That doesn't keep God away from humanity though. After all, God is present everywhere. I think that most Christians might be wrong about hell, it doesn't make sense for King David to say that God is in Sheol if hell is separation from God. Were you ever a Christian?

That's interesting! Personal question: do you believe hell is eternal? And, I wasn't ever really a christian, I would try sometimes (mostly because of my elderly relatives), but it never felt right to me.

 

[RedDragon94]

That's interesting! Personal question: do you believe hell is eternal?

Well, the Bible says that the punishment for the Devil and his angels is forever. I believe is says that in Revelation. So maybe it's just that the Devil's punishment is eternal and human beings suffer temporarily. I don't know. Everything has to refer back to exactly what Scripture says.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Brilliant! You should be a prophet and write your own Bible

I am writing a book about the "Council of El", as it were. I hope to finish it by the end of the year.

True, but the logic is the same.

But it can't be, because that's like comparing a fruit fly with a great white shark.

He didn't have to. He had faith in Job.

If He were truly secure, he wouldn't kowtow to a stupid bet. He would've told Satan to go to hell, so to speak. That He even entertained this is nonsense and cruel.

LOL...then there is no such thing as free will....and we are not made in God's image at all....Jesus died for nothing....and we will never have anything more to look forward to than what mankind can accomplish on his own.

There is no such thing as free will. There is such a thing as will, but it costs plenty. "In God's image" is a vague phrase. Jesus died for nothing because he still has to come back to clean up what should've been cleaned up the first time, right? Nothing is more depressing than realizing you have to accomplish something.

Yes, but car manufacturers have no supernatural powers, they are not perfect, they have no deity competition, and they are not eternal. God's creatures have free will, they can oppose or accept the will of God, and there is no guarantee if they are defective.

The manufacturers of self-driving cars will still be held responsible when it crashes. The car chose badly. Still the manufacturer's fault for not putting in better AI.

You miss the whole point. God allows all sort of evil to plague this world such that evil can be exposed openly under witnessing and be destroyed once and for all in order to secure the eternal Heaven.

Exactly, kind of like the current administration. Our country got spoiled and we have to be reminded what evil looks like.

No, he knew that when God gave the command.

Prove that Adam could internalize rationally any command.

Prove that I'm smart if I give a gambling addict a hundred dollars. Don't I deserve the results?

Like all good parents he wants his children to be responsible for their actions.

Being a role model would make the point better than "do as I say, not as I do".

He wants them to understand the reason for rules and why they are implemented for our good.

It is often said that God's ways are not our ways and are mysterious, so, no, He doesn't want us to get it all and then blame us for our ignorance.

That's interesting! Personal question: do you believe hell is eternal?

What difference does it make if the location is eternal? Only the time you spend there matters.

 

[Enoch07]

If He were truly secure, he wouldn't kowtow to a stupid bet. He would've told Satan to go to hell, so to speak. That He even entertained this is nonsense and cruel.

Principle matters!

 

[RedDragon94]

Prove that Adam could internalize rationally any command.

He had a brain.

 

[RedDragon94]

Prove that I'm smart if I give a gambling addict a hundred dollars. Don't I deserve the results?

There's a hole in that illustration. Adam wasn't a sinner before the fruit. Therefore there was no pull toward sin like there is now with people.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

A child in 1st grade may not really know right from wrong but he should know to obey what the teacher says. Adam and Eve may not have known right from wrong but they should have known to obey God.

 

[Profound Realization]

I hear so much about Mankind's Rebellion against God. I hear that all of the Worlds problems are the result of Mankind's Rebellion against God.

So why does God give people rebellious hearts? God could give everybody the same heart and mind he gave John the Baptist and the Virgin Mary and people would behave like that.

So why does God want us to be so rebellious?

I pray to God unceasingly to have a healthy heart and mind with understanding , so that I make good choices and do his will. God refuses to provide the grace. Why? It's because God wants me to be broken, insane, impulsive, perverted, anxious, cynical, depressed, and confused. If God didn't want me that way, he would easily heal me.

I've prayed to God that I wouldn't troll on RF... sometimes my immaturity and impulsivity leads me to relapse.

I'm thinking about throwing my phone in the lake because I can't seem to moderate my internet addiction.

I'm too impulsive... No matter how much I prayed to God to relieve me of my impulsivity and defects, I get little help. I've come to the conclusion that God wants me to have these defects. The question is why? My answer to that question is to keep me humble (I guess).

People are naturally inclined to rebel against God. It isn't their fault that they're naturally inclined that way , it's God's fault. God could give them a healthy heart and Mind , and he refuses, thus he is responsible for the Rebellion.

Religion is severely divided, and those who seek the truth are coming to opposite conclusions.

God is at fault for that as well, because he could speak to everybody that seeks the truth, give them Clarity , and protect them from delusion, and he refuses to.

I feel justified in my resentment and grievances against God! He is clearly responsible for Mankind's rebellion , and responsible for all of the world's misery.

The damage Satan and the Fallen Angels do is also God's fault... God knew before he made them that they would Rebel and cause problems. He could have never made them in the first place.

He could protect us from them deceiving us and leading us astray and he refuses. God is at fault for human frailty! It's friggin obvious!

To throw a few hypotheticals out there:

This Earth/world may be a chosen destination prior to birth. It may not be remembered the initial home from where came, it may take a lot of time to remember this home.

Imagine being in a world free from any kind of "suffering" or "evil." Now there is a place on Earth where someone can experience the flesh but it will have complications.... "suffering" and "evil." Most bets are off here. There is a way to escape this world, if someone is ready to and desires. There are also endless ways to remain an Earth-bound being. Nothing wrong with either, but at some point enough "suffering" may be enough for someone to start seeking to escape. Another hypothetical would be assuming there is a way to escape. There are many different ways of enjoyment here on Earth, so that it seems better to exist than to not exist. There are many hobbies, much to explore, much to learn, much to experience.... but always comes with a bit of suffering and evil. Even if someone becomes content with the "evil" and "suffering" for themselves, they can't help but feel empathy for their fellow Earth-bound beings, which causes them to suffer. No matter how much good and bliss and glimpses of "heaven" one experiences here... at the blink of an eye that can disappear and change radically.

This could only be possible if someone were made aware of this prior to saying, "yes I want to go experience that world, I will take my chances." Other Earth-bound beings are free to an extent, free to corrupt/destroy. "God" would still instill its "good" and the capability/freedom to rebel against this is also an option. It would also have to come with the removal of such memories, but a place in the heart where those memories have potential to be unlocked.

My question would then be given this hypothetical, would it be "God's" fault still if one had the option of choosing being Earthbound if made aware of the initial consequences prior to choice?

Of course, this is just a basic hypothetical... we'd have to also get into "auto-genetics," destined or predistined environments of birth, cause and effect, rebirths, etc. For instance, John the Baptist was said to be Elijah. In John's case, he would then be predestined in a sense. Elijah left the alternative world with no suffering and evil to be Earthbound with a purpose. The memory in the Earthbound world for John isn't there, but he was instilled with a "purpose."

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Principle matters!

Except the principle that you shouldn't torture a person just to prove a point. What's wrong with you?

He had a brain.

So what? I don't see any evidence he was intelligent enough to write an ethics thesis or anything.

There's a hole in that illustration. Adam wasn't a sinner before the fruit. Therefore there was no pull toward sin like there is now with people.

God doesn't know what His creations are capable of? He wrote their DNA, after all. Adam could not sin as, again, that kind of rational ability necessitated eating the fruit. However, he could be impulsive and thoughtless like a child.

A child in 1st grade may not really know right from wrong but he should know to obey what the teacher says. Adam and Eve may not have known right from wrong but they should have known to obey God.

Do we normally kill bratty kids? I mean, I know the bible demands it, but breaking the neck of a kindergartner for putting paint on the classmate's hair is a bit mean, don't you think?

 

[RedDragon94]

So what? I don't see any evidence he was intelligent enough to write an ethics thesis or anything.

Even Children understand that they should obey their superiors, ma'am.

 

[RedDragon94]

God doesn't know what His creations are capable of? He wrote their DNA, after all. Adam could not sin as, again, that kind of rational ability necessitated eating the fruit. However, he could be impulsive and thoughtless like a child.

I've answered above adequately I think.

 

[Profound Realization]

Even Children understand that they should obey their superiors, ma'am.

To an extent, of course. It is also by simple observation that children also rebel against their "superiors." Tell a child not to do something, and in many instances they won't and also in many instances they will do it with a mischievous grin on their faces.

 

[Mister Silver]

I see rebellion against god as on the same level as rebellion against Harry Potter.

 

[Enoch07]

Except the principle that you shouldn't torture a person just to prove a point. What's wrong with you?

Who said Job was unwilling? Its not torture if Job loved God enough to trust in Him. This is apart of faith. Knowing that despite pain and suffering God will make it right in the end.

 

[Mister Silver]

Except the principle that you shouldn't torture a person just to prove a point. What's wrong with you?

But it's god, so he can be the most evil being in all of creation and his believers will still look upon him with adoration.

It's not their fault. They've just been duped into believing that an abusive god is a loving god.

After all, attempt to speak reasonably to a woman being abused by her husband.

 

[Repox]

The difference is you can't apply human standards to God. No matter how much you complain about God nothing changes. Humans don't have powers or abilities to change matter and energy unless they use atomic energy. Then, they blow up people with no way to reverse it.