Man's freewill and God's divine sovereignty

[KWED]

It's the same thing as far as G-d is concerned. He created us, and He knows why we say what we say.

If god exists and he knows what we think and why, then he knows that they aren't the same thing at all. He knows that we genuinely don't find the arguments for his existence to be at all convincing.

We're not talking about any specific religion .. we're talking about our Maker.

The nature of "Your Maker" is absolutely determined by the religion you follow.
This is the kind of basic circular logic error you need to avoid for debate to be meaningful.

Now, you may say that we are just biological machines and all we see is coincidence. G-d knows why we might say that is a rational conclusion.

It is the rational conclusion based on the available evidence. That's why the vast majority of experts in the relevant fields come to that conclusion. That's no coincidence!
You simply reject evidence and rational argument because it contradicts your religious beliefs - beliefs that are based on ancient superstition rather than evidence and rational argument.

 

[night912]

Second- just because God KNOWS the future does not mean God CAUSES a person to act in certain ways or interferes with someone’s freedom to make choices. I don’t think you understand the biblical concept of predestination.

That would only be true if he wasn't the creator. And this is the important part of the argument where theists tend to "forget" and act as if god only has foreknowledge of future events and not the one who created existence so that those events will still happen in the future.

If god knows what you are going to do in the future, then god created you to do exactly the things that he knew you would do. Therefore, you have no freewill. Every action that you have done, are doing, and will do, was all determined before you were even created. The choices that you've supposedly made and believed to have been chosen by you, weren't actually yours. Those choices were made by god.

"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."
- Henry Ford

 

[night912]

Now, you may say that we are just biological machines and all we see is coincidence. G-d knows why we might say that is a rational conclusion. He knows what we might be hiding.

If he doesn't know for certain, then by definition, he's not omniscient.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..beliefs that are based on ancient superstition rather than evidence and rational argument.

That's your opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If god knows what you are going to do in the future, then god created you to do exactly the things that he knew you would do.

..not true.
G-d is not confined to our perceptions. He is the owner of time and space.

 

[KWED]

First- you’ll have to take the issue up with God, I suppose.

It's interesting how often apologists say "you'll have to ask god" or "god knows best" when faced with tricky questions. If something doesn't make sense you need to try and make sense of it, not simply shrug and ignore it.

If God didn’t decide to create you; you wouldn’t even be here to complain or find fault with how things were created.

I am here because my parents decided to have children. That is all.
However, if I wasn't here, the arguments for god would still be just as poor.

Second- just because God KNOWS the future does not mean God CAUSES a person to act in certain ways or interferes with someone’s freedom to make choices.

This is just the usual apologists' misunderstanding of the paradox. No one is claiming that god forces people to make choices against their will. It is that their choices are inevitable, despite appearing to be freely made.
Surely you accept that we cannot make any choice or perform any action that god does not already know about, and we cannot avoid ones that he knows will happen. Therefore all those choices and actions are inevitable. They were always going to happen in that one particular way, from the beginning of time. Nothing we do can change that.

I don’t think you understand the biblical concept of predestination.

Ironically, it is usually the religionist who misunderstands it (wilfully or otherwise). All versions of Biblical predestination involve god deciding the fate of every person before they are born, they only differ on how that decision is made.

Third- what kind of guidelines are you referring to? Certainly guidelines prohibiting murder or stealing appear to be quite universal throughout history, in all cultures, making sense and benefiting society.

Indeed. Half of god's "commandments" are part of the basic tools of an evolved society and have been around for millennia. The others rely on an existing belief, like worshiping idols, keeping the sabbath holy, dietary restrictions, dress, circumcision, etc.
You said... "He also did reveal clear guidelines for right or wrong actions". What were the guidelines that you were thinking of? Ones that have a rational basis and can only have come from divine revelation?

 

[KWED]

That's your opinion.

Not really.
Give me an example of a religious command that has a rational basis and can only have been derived through divine revelation.
You can't, can you?

 

[KWED]

..not true.
G-d is not confined to our perceptions. He is the owner of time and space.

But we are constrained by space and time. We experience time in a linear fashion. And it is our actions that are the issue.
Whenever we perform an action or make a choice, that action or choice must correspond to the one god knew we would perform the moment before we perform it. That foreknowledge already exists in our timeline. Saying "god owns time" does not address that in any way.

Your vague claims about "time and space" are meaningless. If anything, you are implying that god does not know what we will do before we do it. He is basically observing our actions and then saying "I knew you would do that", which anyone can do.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It's interesting how often apologists say "you'll have to ask god" or "god knows best" when faced with tricky questions. If something doesn't make sense you need to try and make sense of it, not simply shrug and ignore it.

Yes, that is a common cop-out with theists, and it's especially common with Christians. I've heard similar excuses like them from Christians and other theists whenever I talk about the abuse I endured while growing up. A couple of the excuses were "God hasn't answered your prayers because you don't have enough faith in him," and "Suffering abuse was part of God's plan for your life, so you would be capable of helping other people who have also suffered abuse." I was even told by a couple of Christians that I have no right to question God for any reason whatsoever. I was told that it's wrong for me to question why God allowed me to endure abuse for almost fourteen years while growing up. I have PTSD as a result of all the years of abuse, and according to Christians, I'm supposed to let that go and trust in God. It's frustrating, but I don't expect anything better after what I've been told over the years.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..you are implying that god does not know what we will do before we do it.

G-d knows what we will do before we do it, as it is only a perception that "it hasn't happened".
G-d's perception is not like ours .. He is the Creator, and is not constrained by the universe.

That foreknowledge already exists in our timeline..

Makes no difference.. your human perceptions confuse you.

 

[InChrist]

That would only be true if he wasn't the creator. And this is the important part of the argument where theists tend to "forget" and act as if god only has foreknowledge of future events and not the one who created existence so that those events will still happen in the future.

If god knows what you are going to do in the future, then god created you to do exactly the things that he knew you would do. Therefore, you have no freewill. Every action that you have done, are doing, and will do, was all determined before you were even created. The choices that you've supposedly made and believed to have been chosen by you, weren't actually yours. Those choices were made by god.

"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."
- Henry Ford

Who says? That’s not what the scriptures say. God created human beings in His image with the ability to make choices. The scriptures also show repeatedly that humans make choices OPPOSED to God’s clear commands and will. This is called sin.

 

[InChrist]

Yes, that is a common cop-out with theists, and it's especially common with Christians. I've heard similar excuses like them from Christians and other theists whenever I talk about the abuse I endured while growing up. A couple of the excuses were "God hasn't answered your prayers because you don't have enough faith in him," and "Suffering abuse was part of God's plan for your life, so you would be capable of helping other people who have also suffered abuse." I was even told by a couple of Christians that I have no right to question God for any reason whatsoever. I was told that it's wrong for me to question why God allowed me to endure abuse for almost fourteen years while growing up. I have PTSD as a result of all the years of abuse, and according to Christians, I'm supposed to let that go and trust in God. It's frustrating, but I don't expect anything better after what I've been told over the years.

Yes, that is a common cop-out with theists, and it's especially common with Christians. I've heard similar excuses like them from Christians and other theists whenever I talk about the abuse I endured while growing up. A couple of the excuses were "God hasn't answered your prayers because you don't have enough faith in him," and "Suffering abuse was part of God's plan for your life, so you would be capable of helping other people who have also suffered abuse." I was even told by a couple of Christians that I have no right to question God for any reason whatsoever. I was told that it's wrong for me to question why God allowed me to endure abuse for almost fourteen years while growing up. I have PTSD as a result of all the years of abuse, and according to Christians, I'm supposed to let that go and trust in God. It's frustrating, but I don't expect anything better after what I've been told over the years.

Why do you blame God for the abuse you experienced, rather than those who abused you?

 

[InChrist]

It's interesting how often apologists say "you'll have to ask god" or "god knows best" when faced with tricky questions. If something doesn't make sense you need to try and make sense of it, not simply shrug and ignore it.

I am here because my parents decided to have children. That is all.
However, if I wasn't here, the arguments for god would still be just as poor.

This is just the usual apologists' misunderstanding of the paradox. No one is claiming that god forces people to make choices against their will. It is that their choices are inevitable, despite appearing to be freely made.
Surely you accept that we cannot make any choice or perform any action that god does not already know about, and we cannot avoid ones that he knows will happen. Therefore all those choices and actions are inevitable. They were always going to happen in that one particular way, from the beginning of time. Nothing we do can change that.

Ironically, it is usually the religionist who misunderstands it (wilfully or otherwise). All versions of Biblical predestination involve god deciding the fate of every person before they are born, they only differ on how that decision is made.

Indeed. Half of god's "commandments" are part of the basic tools of an evolved society and have been around for millennia. The others rely on an existing belief, like worshiping idols, keeping the sabbath holy, dietary restrictions, dress, circumcision, etc.
You said... "He also did reveal clear guidelines for right or wrong actions". What were the guidelines that you were thinking of? Ones that have a rational basis and can only have come from divine revelation?

When the biblical scriptures speak of predestination it is not about the fate of everyone. It is specifically in reference to those who place their faith in Christ; that those individuals are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

...For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son... Romans 8:29

You may want to do a Bible study on the subject of predestination, so you have an accurate understanding.


Something else to consider is that God is eternal and outside of time. So again, although He can see everything, including the actions of everyone who has or will ever live within time...God does not make anyone act one way or another. Do you know why this is so important?

 

[KWED]

Yes, that is a common cop-out with theists, and it's especially common with Christians. I've heard similar excuses like them from Christians and other theists whenever I talk about the abuse I endured while growing up. A couple of the excuses were "God hasn't answered your prayers because you don't have enough faith in him," and "Suffering abuse was part of God's plan for your life, so you would be capable of helping other people who have also suffered abuse." I was even told by a couple of Christians that I have no right to question God for any reason whatsoever. I was told that it's wrong for me to question why God allowed me to endure abuse for almost fourteen years while growing up. I have PTSD as a result of all the years of abuse, and according to Christians, I'm supposed to let that go and trust in God. It's frustrating, but I don't expect anything better after what I've been told over the years.

The principle of "there must be a good reason for it, so don't question it", regardless of how terrible the event, underpins religion's ability to justify suffering and abuse.

 

[KWED]

G-d knows what we will do before we do it, as it is only a perception that "it hasn't happened".
G-d's perception is not like ours .. He is the Creator, and is not constrained by the universe.

Yet again you fall back on this "but god's perception of time is different to ours" argument, but again fail to explain what it means or how it affects the problem, nor do you address my points as to why your argument fails.
We experience time in a linear fashion. At any given moment it is us who has to make a choice or perform an action.
When that moment arrives for us, there is only one possible outcome, despite the apparent choices available. If god does not have infallible foreknowledge, then all those options are available.
Therefore god's infallible foreknowledge restricts our free will in practice, at the moment of performing that action.

Makes no difference.. your human perceptions confuse you.

And what kind of perceptions do you have?
Correct. So you are equally likely to be "confused". Add the cognitive dissonance of dogma, and it is actually you who is more likely to be confused about this.

You have already admitted that we must perform only the action god already knows we will perform, and it is impossible to perform an action he has not foreseen. Then we have the textual evidence like Umar ibn al-Khattab's quote and the fundamental principle of Qadr. Yet you still claim that we have the free will, although you seem unable to present any evidence of argument other than mere assertion.

 

[KWED]

When the biblical scriptures speak of predestination it is not about the fate of everyone. It is specifically in reference to those who place their faith in Christ; that those individuals are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

...For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son... Romans 8:29

You may want to do a Bible study on the subject of predestination, so you have an accurate understanding.

Perhaps you are unaware that different sects have different concepts of predestination. However, the theme that runs through them all is that god decides the fate of people. Therefore god has removed their ability to determine their own fate - ie. no free will. It really is that simple.

Something else to consider is that God is eternal and outside of time. So again, although He can see everything, including the actions of everyone who has or will ever live within time...God does not make anyone act one way or another. Do you know why this is so important?

Erm, that is the definition of "omniscience" and is part of the problem. Infallible omniscience effectively removes free will by allowing only one possible outcome of any given event at the time it takes place.
Look, it is understandable why you (and most religionists) struggle with this paradox. You are obliged to accept two incompatible principles. It is also understandable why god needed to be more powerful and controlling than any other gods (there was much competition for followers) while at the same time free will was required (to make heaven and hell coherent). The people responsible for the original claims didn't really think it through properly and you are now stuck with that legacy.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We experience time in a linear fashion. At any given moment it is us who has to make a choice or perform an action.
When that moment arrives for us, there is only one possible outcome, despite the apparent choices available.

Correct. There is no "multiverse", so only one future is possible, but we don't know what it is.

If god does not have infallible foreknowledge, then all those options are available

They are available whatever .. it's just that you confuse causality with knowledge of future events. That is due to human perception of time.
Why do I have to keep repeating this? "it hasn't happened yet" is a perception, and as far as you're concerned, time is something that can't be violated .. even by the Creator of the universe it would seem.

You have already admitted that we must perform only the action god already knows we will perform, and it is impossible to perform an action he has not foreseen.

..trick words that imply because we "must" do something, it is because we are not free to choose.
That is not the case .. we "must" do it because we have said that G-d knows what we will choose, due to G-d perceiving time differently.

 

[InChrist]

Perhaps you are unaware that different sects have different concepts of predestination. However, the theme that runs through them all is that god decides the fate of people. Therefore god has removed their ability to determine their own fate - ie. no free will. It really is that simple.

Erm, that is the definition of "omniscience" and is part of the problem. Infallible omniscience effectively removes free will by allowing only one possible outcome of any given event at the time it takes place.
Look, it is understandable why you (and most religionists) struggle with this paradox. You are obliged to accept two incompatible principles. It is also understandable why god needed to be more powerful and controlling than any other gods (there was much competition for followers) while at the same time free will was required (to make heaven and hell coherent). The people responsible for the original claims didn't really think it through properly and you are now stuck with that legacy.

Of course I am aware there are sects that teach a convoluted view of freewill, Calvinists in particular. I am not really interested in what certain sects or theologians teach, rather just the Holy Scriptures. The Bible clearly teaches that an individual’s free response to God/the gospel determines their eternal destiny or fate, as you say. No where do the scriptures suggest or give any examples that God controls or makes that decisions for anyone. It is that simple according to the scriptures.
How many times do the scriptures use terminology, such as ....believe, receive, trust, love? Those are all indicative that one must freely choose to act or respond in such a way.

 

[KWED]

Of course I am aware there are sects that teach a convoluted view of freewill, Calvinists in particular. I am not really interested in what certain sects or theologians teach, rather just the Holy Scriptures. The Bible clearly teaches that an individual’s free response to God/the gospel determines their eternal destiny or fate, as you say. No where do the scriptures suggest or give any examples that God controls or makes that decisions for anyone. It is that simple according to the scriptures.
How many times do the scriptures use terminology, such as ....believe, receive, trust, love? Those are all indicative that one must freely choose to act or respond in such a way.

Scriptures also say that god decides the outcome of events. Hence the problem. Simply ignoring one side of the paradox does not make it go away.

 

[KWED]

Correct. There is no "multiverse", so only one future is possible, but we don't know what it is.
They are available whatever .. it's just that you confuse causality with knowledge of future events. That is due to human perception of time.
Why do I have to keep repeating this? "it hasn't happened yet" is a perception, and as far as you're concerned, time is something that can't be violated .. even by the Creator of the universe it would seem.
..trick words that imply because we "must" do something, it is because we are not free to choose.
That is not the case .. we "must" do it because we have said that G-d knows what we will choose, due to G-d perceiving time differently.

Yes, I understand that you use this "but god time is different" in an attempt to resolve the paradox, but as I have explained, it does no such thing. And remember that it only applies to god's infallible omniscience, not to him determining the outcome of all events.
I also understand that it its simply impossible for you to understand the problem and at the same time maintain your faith. By its very nature, you are required to accept that predestination can free will are compatible - which is clearly irrational. But faith often demands believing the clearly irrational.