Man's freewill and God's divine sovereignty

[KWED]

Yes, but that does not mean that the choices we make are not what we want to choose .. it means that other people's choices and "acts of G-d" might not be.

The choices we make are necessarily part of our destiny. We cannot alter our destiny by our choices. It really is that simple.

That is not my point. My point is that the past being fixed does not mean that it couldn't have been fixed by our choices.

Under Islam's predestination and infallible omniscience, the past was fixed while it was still the future. Past, present and future is all determined by Allah's decree.

i.e. it does not categorically mean that free-will is precluded

If an event is determined by Allah's decree and it cannot be changed, then yes, it does preclude free will.

I notice you are still not addressing the bulk of my points.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The choices we make are necessarily part of our destiny. We cannot alter our destiny by our choices. It really is that simple.

That is correct.
That doesn't translate to "we have no choice", because we have.
Our choices become part of our destiny.

That is not my point. My point is that the past being fixed does not mean that it couldn't have been fixed by our choices.

Under Islam's predestination and infallible omniscience, the past was fixed while it was still the future.

No, no, no.
I did not mention omniscience .. that would be you adding this distraction
We are discussing fixed series of events, and not your presuppostions about omniscience.

The fact that the past is fixed IN ITSELF does not mean that it cannot be DETERMINED BY OUR CHOICES.

..so why should a fixed future not be determined by our choices?
It can only be your perception of time that precludes it .. unless you have an alternative reason, that is not purely an assertion.

Past, present and future is all determined by Allah's decree.

That explains nothing. You have your own version of what that means in practise, which disagrees with the Islamic one.

 

[KWED]

That is correct.
That doesn't translate to "we have no choice", because we have.
Our choices become part of our destiny.

This would mean that our destiny is determined by our choices, which kinda negates the concept of "destiny".
However, it is god who decrees our destiny. It is determined before we make any choices.

Example. Allah has decreed that I will go to hell and be tortured forever. He decreed this 50,000 years before creation. The moment I was born my destiny was to go to hell.
So, how can any "choice" I make change that destiny?
Correct, it cannot.
I could choose to convert to Islam and follow the 5 pillars religiously, but it would not change my destiny.
What's more, Allah knew I would convert and still decreed my destiny to be hell.

No, no, no.
I did not mention omniscience .. that would be you adding this distraction
We are discussing fixed series of events, and not your presuppostions about omniscience.

Perhaps you should read up on Qadr. It relies on both. However, to keep you happy...
"Under Islam's predestination, the past was fixed while it was still the future."

The fact that the past is fixed IN ITSELF does not mean that it cannot be DETERMINED BY OUR CHOICES.

The past cannot be determined by anything, it has already happened. It was determined by something before it became the past, and under Islam, it is determined by Allah's decree.

..so why should a fixed future not be determined by our choices?
It can only be your perception of time that precludes it .. unless you have an alternative reason, that is not purely an assertion.

Because if a future is fixed, it cannot be altered so the concept of "choice" is meaningless.

That explains nothing. You have your own version of what that means in practise, which disagrees with the Islamic one.

I have provided textual evidence that under Islam, the past, present and future is determined by Allah's decree. All you have done is disagree based on your own opinion about the nature of time, which has no basis in Islamic doctrine.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Example. Allah has decreed that I will go to hell and be tortured forever. He decreed this 50,000 years before creation. The moment I was born my destiny was to go to hell.
So, how can any "choice" I make change that destiny?
Correct, it cannot.
I could choose to convert to Islam and follow the 5 pillars religiously, but it would not change my destiny.
What's more, Allah knew I would convert and still decreed my destiny to be hell.

You're talking yourself into it
If you are happy with hell as a destiny, then carry on and behave badly.

Perhaps you should read up on Qadr..

I have no need.
..perhaps you should "read up" on the meaning of "G-d does not wrong anybody, even an atom's weight".
How can it be that we wrong ourselves if we are not in control of what we do?
Your version of "decree" makes no sense.
Decree quite obviously includes all of our choices, too.

Can't you understand the simple fact, that while we are in control of what we do individually, we cannot control what billions of others are doing???
Give it up .. your quest is futile.

The past cannot be determined by anything, it has already happened..

That's right.
It is a perception about the nature of time.
As far as we are concerned, the past has already happened, but the future has not.
Convincing, isn't it !

Einstein, however, knew that "now" is only a perception, and is not definitive as regards to the cosmos.

 

[KWED]

You're talking yourself into it
If you are happy with hell as a destiny, then carry on and behave badly.

Was to completely avoid addressing my points. Again.

I have no need.

With all due respect, considering this discussion is essentially about Qadr, and you seem to not understand it, I beg to differ.

..perhaps you should "read up" on the meaning of "G-d does not wrong anybody, even an atom's weight".

It has long been shown that the Quran contains contradictory concepts. Predestination and free-will being one of them.

Decree quite obviously includes all of our choices, too.

Indeed. Every "choice" we make has been determined by Allah's decree. So they are not really "choices" (although they seem to us like they are).

Can't you understand the simple fact, that while we are in control of what we do individually, we cannot control what billions of others are doing???

How is that relevant? It is Allah that controls the outcome of all affairs. Our own, and everyone else's.

That's right.
It is a perception about the nature of time.
As far as we are concerned, the past has already happened, but the future has not.

Again, you fail to address my point (or perhaps you don't understand it).
Under Islam (with god's predestination and infallible omniscience) the future is as fixed as the past is.

Einstein, however, knew that "now" is only a perception, and is not definitive as regards to the cosmos.

How is this relevant?
(BTW, careful with that appeal to authority. Einstein also called religion childish)[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[muhammad_isa]

Indeed. Every "choice" we make has been determined by Allah's decree. So they are not really "choices" (although they seem to us like they are).

You're talking bilge.
Why would you want to completely contradict what the Qur'an says about it?
You now start up with nonsense about our choices only "seeming like choices" .. more nonsense that makes no sense.
Either we have a choice or we don't.
..and the Qur'an repeatedly says that we do.

Again, you fail to address my point (or perhaps you don't understand it).
Under Islam (with god's predestination and infallible omniscience) the future is as fixed as the past is.

Ha ha.
The future is fixed, full stop. It is only your perception that causes you to think otherwise.

How is this relevant?
(BTW, careful with that appeal to authority. Einstein also called religion childish)

We are not discussing about Einstein's religion.
If you think that 'now' is somehow more meaningful than it really is, then you should "read up" on relativity.
'now' is a perception .. it doesn't really exist as an absolute fixed phenomena.

This, in turn, leads us to realise that talking about fixed and unfixed futures is impossible.
It is surely fixed, but we don't know what it is, because we perceive that it has "not happened yet".
..and "not happened yet" depends on the concept of 'now'.

Going into the maths/physics of relativity is irrelevant, as it is enough to realise that the concept is all we need to know, in order to realise that our perception of time is only a perception.

 

[muhammad_isa]

With all due respect, considering this discussion is essentially about Qadr, and you seem to not understand it, I beg to differ.

Oh, for goodness sake !
Did Einstein see the universe as being essentially deterministic due to relativity? Yes.

Did that mean that he thought those who exploded atomic bombs over Japan were not then responsible for their actions? No, of course not.

This argument about the compatibility of a deterministic universe with free-will is based on false premise.
If you can't see that, then so be it.

An agent is free to do otherwise, if they can do otherwise, if they want to do otherwise.

Your so-called fixed future approach, suggests that our "wanting to do something" is not real.
That is just philosophical goblldigook.
You can believe that all the cars on the highway are really being driven by some mysterious force beyond our control .. but I will not.

 

[night912]

Who says? That’s not what the scriptures say. God created human beings in His image with the ability to make choices. The scriptures also show repeatedly that humans make choices OPPOSED to God’s clear commands and will. This is called sin.

Actually the author made the choices for those characters.

So are you going to address what I said instead?

 

[night912]

..not true.
G-d is not confined to our perceptions. He is the owner of time and space.

Then why are you arguing from the perspective of humans?

 

[night912]

G-d knows what we will do before we do it, as it is only a perception that "it hasn't happened".
G-d's perception is not like ours .. He is the Creator, and is not constrained by the universe.

Exactly, so that means that there is no freewill.

 

[KWED]

You're talking bilge.

Careful now. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the forum rules.

Why would you want to completely contradict what the Qur'an says about it?

I don't I acknowledge that the Quran presents two contradictory positions; that Allah predetermines our fate, and that we have free will to determine our own fate.

You now start up with nonsense about our choices only "seeming like choices" .. more nonsense that makes no sense.

If Allah does determine the outcome of all events by his decree, then we must have only the illusion of free will.
Conversely, if we genuinely have the ability to determine our own fate through our own choices, then the principle of Qadr makes no sense.

Either we have a choice or we don't.

Well, you'd think...

..and the Qur'an repeatedly says that we do.

And it also repeatedly says that our fate is determined by Allah.

The future is fixed, full stop. It is only your perception that causes you to think otherwise.

Whuh?
I'm the one who keeps telling you that under Allah's predestination and infallible omniscience the future is fixed and it only seems like we have free will to affect it.
Now you are finally agreeing with me.

We are not discussing about Einstein's religion.

You were presenting Einstein's opinion as support for your position (although I'm not sure how). I was merely pointing out that you don't want top be accused of cherry-picking or quote-mining your sources.

If you think that 'now' is somehow more meaningful than it really is, then you should "read up" on relativity.
'now' is a perception .. it doesn't really exist as an absolute fixed phenomena.

Again, you will need to explain how this affects the problem of predestine vs free will.

This, in turn, leads us to realise that talking about fixed and unfixed futures is impossible.

Well yet again, I have achieved the impossible, although not before breakfast this time.

It is surely fixed, but we don't know what it is, because we perceive that it has "not happened yet".

Allah knows what it is, and he cannot be wrong, therefore it has happened to all intents and purposes.

..and "not happened yet" depends on the concept of 'now'.

Unless one has infallible omniscience or one has the ability of predestination - in which case it's all the same.
However, for us the difference between "now" and "not happened yet" is pretty straightforward as we experience time in a strictly linear fashion.

Going into the maths/physics of relativity is irrelevant, as it is enough to realise that the concept is all we need to know, in order to realise that our perception of time is only a perception.

But I don't see how the concept even applies here, so you'll have to explain it.
(BTW, Einstein also said that if you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't understand it)

 

[KWED]

Oh, for goodness sake !
Did Einstein see the universe as being essentially deterministic due to relativity? Yes.

Did that mean that he thought those who exploded atomic bombs over Japan were not then responsible for their actions? No, of course not.

This argument about the compatibility of a deterministic universe with free-will is based on false premise.
If you can't see that, then so be it.

An agent is free to do otherwise, if they can do otherwise, if they want to do otherwise.

Your so-called fixed future approach, suggests that our "wanting to do something" is not real.
That is just philosophical goblldigook.
You can believe that all the cars on the highway are really being driven by some mysterious force beyond our control .. but I will not.

Again, you seem to misunderstand.
I am not talking about how I think the universe actually works. I am talking about how it works under Allah's control. That is why understanding the principle of Qadr is important. I do not believe that Qadr is an actual thing that exists in reality, but you do, so I am explaining the problems with your position. And we can see the those problems manifesting themselves in your variously contradictory positions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Again, you seem to misunderstand.
I am not talking about how I think the universe actually works. I am talking about how it works under Allah's control.

No you are not.
You don't speak for Islamic beliefs.

I do not believe that Qadr is an actual thing that exists in reality..

Well I do .. and as I'm the one that believes it, then I'm in a better position than you to explain it.
All you do is tell us that if G-d has decreed "such-and such" then we cannot have free-will.

On the contrary, many people believe that a deterministic universe does not necessarily preclude free will.
I just explained to you that Einstein didn't conclude that those that dropped atomic bombs on Japan "had no choice", just because he understood the universe to be deterministic in nature.
But clearly, you think you know better.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And it also repeatedly says that our fate is determined by Allah..

You should speak to an Arab. You don't know what you are talking about.
You read some translation, and become confused [either accidentally or purposely] by words used.
Muslims don't believe that "Divine decree" means that Allah is controlling our every move.
Furthermore, the concept of "the pen is lifted, and the ink is dry" again, does not mean that Allah literally wrote it, and we are mere puppets.
Anybody who believes that does not have proper knowledge. It makes no sense. It is contradictory, as you say.

 

[Nakosis]

"God will not impede man's freewill." I've heard this excuse, and other similar ones, time and time again from many devout theists (Christians, Bahá'i), who attempt to defend God's abhorrent cruelty and apathy towards immeasurable human suffering. Personally speaking, I think this excuse is a total cop-out. It's a cop-out to purposely defend God knowing about the reprehensible, inhumane atrocities that either God ordered himself or he allowed to happen and did nothing to intervene. The Holocaust comes to mind.

Instead of blaming God, the creator, these devout theists will blame the creation, mankind and Satan. They adamantly refuse to blame God, who has infinite knowledge (omniscience), infinite power (omnipotent), and he is ever-present (omnipresence). In other words, God had foreknowledge of every tragedy and atrocities throughout human history, and yet, he allowed these horrific events to take place, and he didn't stop any of it. Personally speaking, I think it's beyond disgusting, cruel and sadistic. There's no excuse.

I've said all of that to say this...

If I saw another person being physically attacked, I'm not going to turn a blind eye and think, "I'm not going to try and save this poor person from being physically attacked (beaten up, raped, or killed) because I don't want to impede on their attacker's freewill!" And I'm not going to think, "I'm not going to try and save this innocent child from being abused because I don't want to impede on their abuser's freewill!" I would be a depraved, callous, cold-blooded monster if I refused to do whatever I could to save another person's life. Lastly, I don't blame humanity or Satan for the fallen world we live in. I blame God, the infinite creator, who foreknew that man and Satan would fall into total depravity and destruction. I blame God, who admitted he creates disasters and calamities (Is. 45:7).

God is responsible for the fallen world, and that's where the real blame lies, not with humanity or with Satan.

What if God requires no accountability for what we do while here on earth.
God created a world where we could make choices according to our desires.
So man is free to do whatever he is capable of doing. The only accountability would be dealing with the specific results of our choices.
IOW there is no judgement made by God as to our actions.

You blame God for giving you and everyone else the freedom to make your own choices.
However, in the end, nothing you do matters except to you and your experience while here on earth.

 

[KWED]

No you are not.
You don't speak for Islamic beliefs.

Once again, you seem to misunderstand. These are not my opinions. They are the opinions of Islamic scholars, Muhammad, and Allah himself.
Now, I'm not saying that there is no disagreement or contradiction amongst or even within those sources, but you really need to address these issues rather than just repeating "Isn't!".

Well I do .. and as I'm the one that believes it, then I'm in a better position than you to explain it.

Non sequitur. Actually, the fact that you are so ideologically invested in this means that you are less likely to take an obectibve and rational approach.

All you do is tell us that if G-d has decreed "such-and such" then we cannot have free-will.

If god decrees that you will perform action x at time t (and therefore action x must happen at time t), then you do not have free will to perform any other action than x. Even given your strong confirmation bias, I really not sure why you are struggling to understand this.

On the contrary, many people believe that a deterministic universe does not necessarily preclude free will.

How is that relevant to a universe where every event is determined by Allah's decree?

I just explained to you that Einstein didn't conclude that those that dropped atomic bombs on Japan "had no choice", just because he understood the universe to be deterministic in nature.
But clearly, you think you know better.

I have never claimed that they had no choice.
However, under Islam, if Allah had decreed that they would drop the bombs, then they would not have been able to do anything else. Understand?

BTW, as Einstein did not believe in free will of any kind, perhaps you can explain how he thought people still had the ability to affect the outcome of events and to change their destiny, rather than you just appealing to authority?

 

[KWED]

You should speak to an Arab. You don't know what you are talking about.

I just had a word with the Lebanese guy who runs a restaurant round the corner. He didn't have a clue.
However, I have consulted some other Arabs on the subject (Muhammad, Ibn Kathir, Umar ibn al-Khattab to name but three. I don't think Allah really counts as an Arab) and they all made statements that confirm the negation of free will. Although to be fair, there were also other statements that imply free will. But I have always accepted that Islam is at times internally contradictory.

You read some translation, and become confused [either accidentally or purposely] by words used.

Do you think that the fluently bilingual, Islamic scholars who wrote those translations were "confused by the words used"?
Why do you think that you are a better authority on the meaning of Islamic texts than Islamic scholars fluent in Classical Arabic. Are you fluent in Classical Arabic? No. Have you studied for years under renowned sheiyks? No. So how can you claim that they are wrong and you are right?

Muslims don't believe that "Divine decree" means that Allah is controlling our every move.

I have never claimed they do.
However statements like "No amount of worrying can change the future. Go easy on yourself, for the outcome of all affairs is determined by God's decree. If something is meant to go elsewhere, it will never come your way, but if it is yours by destiny, from you it cannot flee.” certainly imply that he does. But obviously if you accepted that implication it would make the concept of heaven and hell incoherent.

Furthermore, the concept of "the pen is lifted, and the ink is dry" again, does not mean that Allah literally wrote it, and we are mere puppets.

Of course it isn't literal. "The ink is dry" is a metaphor for a permanent outcome, so the implication is that your destiny is predetermined and fixed.
You may not feel like a puppet, but that is essentially what it means.

Anybody who believes that does not have proper knowledge. It makes no sense. It is contradictory, as you say.

Bingo!
It is understandable why the two contradictory concepts of divine predestination/infallible omniscience and free will were included. They were both needed to reinforce different and necessary aspects of god. The problem is that, as you say, they are contradictory.

If a person makes two contradictory statements to the police about where they were at the time of a crime, the conclusion isn't that they must somehow be compatible and therefore a person can be in two places to one time.
No, the obvious, rational, only conclusion is that one of those statements is false.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..statements like "No amount of worrying can change the future. Go easy on yourself, for the outcome of all affairs is determined by God's decree. If something is meant to go elsewhere, it will never come your way, but if it is yours by destiny, from you it cannot flee.” certainly imply that he does. But obviously if you accepted that implication it would make the concept of heaven and hell incoherent..

You just keep insisting that we must accept your understanding.
Why should we?

Your argument is fatally flawed. It's so obvious, that
1. Muslims don't realise their religion is incomprehensible
or
2. you have an incorrect understanding of "what is decreed"

Of course it isn't literal. "The ink is dry" is a metaphor for a permanent outcome, so the implication is that your destiny is predetermined and fixed.
You may not feel like a puppet, but that is essentially what it means.

see above..
You perceive that "it hasn't happened yet" implies that the future can't be known unless a mysterious force compels you to enact what is known.
This "mysterious force" is ourselves

 

[Stonetree]

"God will not impede man's freewill." I've heard this excuse, and other similar ones, time and time again from many devout theists (Christians, Bahá'i), who attempt to defend God's abhorrent cruelty and apathy towards immeasurable human suffering. Personally speaking, I think this excuse is a total cop-out. It's a cop-out to purposely defend God knowing about the reprehensible, inhumane atrocities that either God ordered himself or he allowed to happen and did nothing to intervene. The Holocaust comes to mind.

Instead of blaming God, the creator, these devout theists will blame the creation, mankind and Satan. They adamantly refuse to blame God, who has infinite knowledge (omniscience), infinite power (omnipotent), and he is ever-present (omnipresence). In other words, God had foreknowledge of every tragedy and atrocities throughout human history, and yet, he allowed these horrific events to take place, and he didn't stop any of it. Personally speaking, I think it's beyond disgusting, cruel and sadistic. There's no excuse.

I've said all of that to say this...

If I saw another person being physically attacked, I'm not going to turn a blind eye and think, "I'm not going to try and save this poor person from being physically attacked (beaten up, raped, or killed) because I don't want to impede on their attacker's freewill!" And I'm not going to think, "I'm not going to try and save this innocent child from being abused because I don't want to impede on their abuser's freewill!" I would be a depraved, callous, cold-blooded monster if I refused to do whatever I could to save another person's life. Lastly, I don't blame humanity or Satan for the fallen world we live in. I blame God, the infinite creator, who foreknew that man and Satan would fall into total depravity and destruction. I blame God, who admitted he creates disasters and calamities (Is. 45:7).

God is responsible for the fallen world, and that's where the real blame lies, not with humanity or with Satan.

The conclusion or conclusions you express in this OP were made while using poor reasoning. On one hand you are accepting attributes of God that may, very well, be simply conjecture. If there is or are God or Gods, why so many different belief systems? There are different belief systems because people chose to describe God or Gods differently. No God or Gods have offered a self description, as I see it....People claim to be prophets. People author scripture. People are the authorities of different churches. People burned what they said were evil witches. People started the great Inquisitions that sentenced disagreeable individuals to torture or death. People cut off heads in the name of what people believe..etc...Yet, you are exonerating PEOPLE or Satan.Please realize PEOPLE started the belief in God....Any Theist must realize if their God or Gods exist it's YOU that exhibits their reality. God or Gods leave that to PEOPLE. It's you that are RESPONSIBLE for your actions, even if you choose to blame some God.