Many Abodes of the Father's House

[Feedmysheep]

I understand. Rather than debate, I will leave some comments. My interpretations are not very orthodox I suppose. I will not beat you over the head with them. They are for reference if you find them useful.

Okay. I'm not thin skinned. Contribute something please.

. . .
Sadly, the Sons of God took advantage of this ability and genetically engineered themselves to be superior to the average person.

Jesus did something similar, but he *did not* take advantage of the Kenosis process and re-engineer himself to become a 'God on Earth'...

I did read everything, and carefully.

Philippians 2:6-7 (KJV) - "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

Philippians 2:6 (New International Version) - "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;"

In both instances, the Sons of God vs. the Son of God, were in essence their own Father. Do you understand?

I think I understand it.

They conceived themselves.

Imagine you turned yourself into a Sperm and inseminated yourself into your Wife. Who is your Father? YOU are your Father. Who is your Mother? YOUR WIFE is your mother. Make sense?

In order for you to do this, you would have to shed your Earthly Tabernacle Body and place your Spirit and Soul into your Wife and fertilize her Ovum. This is Kenosis, the so called 'emptying'.

From Wikipedia:

In Christian theology, kenosis (Ancient Greek: κένωσις, romanized: kénōsis, lit. 'the act of emptying') is the "self-emptying" of Jesus.

Kenosis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jesus conceived himself, which makes Jesus his own Father. Mary was both Wife *and* Mother to Jesus. It is just not generally understood this way.

And thus, it is the concept of the Trinity that allows us to put all of this together and understand the Father/Word/Holy Ghost 'three in one' trichotomy in a simple, logic way.

No comment yet at this time.

 

[PureX]

I sense a kind of cautionary - "Let's make sure we make the Father's house as wide, inclusive, and universal as possible."
Its interesting that red flags are going up like "Sectarianism alert!"

Humans are naturally tribal. We like there to be an "us and them" to help hold us together, and keep us feeling special. But the revelation and promise of Christ was intended for everyone, and is available to everyone. It is not tribal. It is not exclusive. It is universal.

I am going to try to leave this with you. I believe there is a difference in Jesus saying "No one comes to the Father except through Me" and someone saying "No one comes to the Father except through Christianity."

I agree. Especially since there was no "Christianity" then, and since Jesus was a Jew that intended to stay a Jew. And he did so until the end. There is no indication whatever that he was trying to begin any new religions. He was the human embodiment of a spiritual revelation and promise for all mankind, regardless of any religion or the lack thereof.

The revelation being that God's divine spirit exists within us, as love forgiveness, kindness, generosity, honesty, wisdom, and unity. And the promise is that if we will allow ourselves to become the human embodiment of these divine spiritual gifts within us, we will be healed and saved from ourselves, and will help to heal and save others. And when enough of us have finally made that choice, the whole world will be healed and saved from humanity.

Jesus was not just a messenger, he was the human embodiment of the message. And we killed him for it. As we would very likely still do, today. BUT, his love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, etc., still remains. So the opportunity for our salvation also still remains. We will be forgiven as we are willing to forgive ourselves and each other. And we will be loved as we are willing to love ourselves and each other. And so on. So the revelation and the promise still stands. All we need to do is CHOOSE IT.

I agree that the way of being, living, and entering into this Father's house is Christ Himself.

That is poetic religious language. I try to avoid that whenever I can. It just confuses people and often puts them off because they have heard it too often used to insult and manipulate them.

It is Christ Himself living out Christ within the ones with whom He and the Father as the divine "We" (v.23) have come to make an abode.

The divine spirit (of love) already "abides" within us all. The question is, will we recognize it for what it is, and will we choose to embody it with our lives?

At any rate I believe what came out of the mouth of Christ was Him pointing to Himself as the way.
Do you read it as "I have a way" or "I am the way"?

Yes. He spoke of himself as the living embodiment of that divine spirit within. And this was shocking to people in those days. The idea of God existing WITHIN US was new to humanity. And so as we humans tend to do, we resisted it, and feared it, as it might upset our power structures. And we would likely react the same way, today.

Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. (v. 19)

More confusing poetic language that explains that now that this revelation and promise has been given to us, by him, it will not be retracted. It will remain available to us forever. We can kill the messenger, but we cannot kill the revelation and promise of the message. Just as the world may kill those of us that try to likewise embody that divine spirit within, with our lives, it will not succeed in killing the revelation or the promise for all mankind that we tried to embody.

You'll find me more wanting to talk about this "place" being prepared for us through Christ's redemptive death and resurrection.
The place is the triune God of the Gospel.

I avoid this kind of magical poetic discussion. As I don't see that it serves the revelation or the promise to obscure it with fantastic religiosity.

As dedicated as the leading disciple was, because of his fallen nature it was as easy for him to deny the Lord Jesus
as it is for the rooster to crow in the morning. So the way to go into God must be prepared by Jesus going to the cross
to accomplish eternal redemption for sinners.

We all fail at embodying the divine spirit within us, often. Fortunately, none of this is about perfection. It's about forgiveness, and about trying again.

I can't do it. In myself I only care for my own skin like Peter.
Without Him indwelling man as a mingled life in union we are not able to live this way.
Only Jesus is absolute for the will of the Father.

I don't now that Jesus was perfect at it, either. I personally doubt it as he was human after all. But it doesn't matter. He delivered the message, and now it is up to each of us to choose to try, or to choose not to.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Humans are naturally tribal. We like there to be an "us and them" to help hold us together, and keep us feeling special. But the revelation and promise of Christ was intended for everyone, and is available to everyone. It is not tribal. It is not exclusive. It is universal.

Like "Whosoever believes" ? Is that what you mean?

I agree. Especially since there was no "Christianity" then, and since Jesus was Jew that intended to stay a Jew. And he did so until the end. There is no indication whatever that he was trying to begin any new religions. He was the human embodiment of a spiritual revelation and promise for all mankind, regardless of any religion or the lack thereof.

You'll find me trying to stay close to discussing John 14.

The revelation being that God's divine spirit exists within us, as love forgiveness, kindness, generosity, honesty, wisdom, and unity.

I don't believe by our first natural birth God's divine Holy Spirit exists in every person.
I believe a human spirit exists within everyone. And by human spirit I do not mean a human soul. I mean something close to God but
is not God Himself . . . YET.

I'll get around to John shortly. Man is created "in the image of God". This is like a glove made in the image of a human hand.
The shape of the empty vessel of the glove is in a human hand shape. That is so that a human hand might fit smoothly within the glove.
This is not a material matter but an allegory for a spiritual matter.

Now since the glove has a hand like image we might say "I see a hand in the glove."
Actually we do not see a hand in the glove yet. We see a hand SHAPED empty vessel.

When I hear people say things like "God is in everyone" I don't agree that has necessarily occured yet.
I see what is really the case that because all humans are made in the image of God the feeling of God being in everyone is detected.

I interpret your view that "God's divine spirit exists within us love forgiveness, kindness, generosity, honesty, wisdom, and unity"
as all men and women, boys and girls are created in the image of God and according to the likeness of God. (Genesis 1:26)

The human virtues you mentioned are like the empty finger shaped pertutions of the empty glove.
The human virtues are in the shape of the divine attributes of God.

And the promise is that if we will allow ourselves to become the human embodiment of these divine spiritual gifts within us, we will be healed and saved from ourselves, and will help to heal and save others. And when enough of us have finally made that choice, the whole world will be healed and saved from humanity.

What happened that there is a need for healing at all?
What happened that there is a need for saving at all?

Jesus was not just a messenger, he was the human embodiment of the message. And we killed him for it.

Yes, I agree.

As would would very likely still do, today. BUT, his love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, etc., still remains. So the opportunity for our salvation also still remains. We will be forgiven as we are willing to forgive ourselves and each other. And we will be loved as we are willing to love ourselves and each other. And so on. So the revelation and the promise still stands. All we need to do is CHOOSE IT.

Can we choose it if Jesus is dead and gone?
I would teach that if Christ did not rise from the dead Christians are among all people pitiful.

For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised.
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If it is only that we have hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most miserable. (1 Co 15:16-19)

Back at John 14:19,20 He says that because He lives in resurrection we will live.

Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. (v.19)

And in "that day" the day of His resurrection the disciples will know this union of them with Christ and Christ with God as an indwelling reality.

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (v.20)

Now I have to experiment with some technical aspects of the Forum. I see your comments but lose what you're reacting to.
So I'll have to see how to keep both up as I reply.

I do see below references to "magical poetic discussion" which you avoid, "confusing poetic language" which can be abused,
religious, relgiosity, "fantastic religiosity" etc. These can be phrases simply to minimalize and dismiss as insignificant what one doesn't
like.

You'll find me not ashamed at using the Bible to interpret the Bible.
You'll find me using the words of the Bible and words not in the Bible but seek to convey its meaning.
Much of this is according to experience. I make no apologies for saying some of these things I have personally and collectively with
others experienced.

Maybe, if something is incomprehensible in what I wrote, you can just say "Hey, I didn't understand that at all."
But if not, that's your perogative. I get what you're writing I think without such dismissals.

The Gospel of John is I think some of the most profound writing ever written.
I believe both the Apostle John and the Lord Jesus whom he loved knew what they were speaking of.
There is a spiritual dimension here which human words are not easy to convey.
And there is a divine and mystical realm which man needs and poo hoos at his own loss.

I can't dumb it down for you PureX. I can try to ascertain what you're able to receive.
Be back latter.

 

[PureX]

Like "Whosoever believes" ? Is that what you mean?

It's not about 'believing'. It's about recognizing that divine spirit within us and choosing to allow it to become us.

When I hear people say things like "God is in everyone" I don't agree that has necessarily occured yet.

I interpret your view that "God's divine spirit exists within us love forgiveness, kindness, generosity, honesty, wisdom, and unity"
as all men and women, boys and girls are created in the image of God and according to the likeness of God. (Genesis 1:26)

Seems to me that you are contradicting yourself, here.

What happened that there is a need for healing at all?
What happened that there is a need for saving at all?

Free will.

In order for us to have free will, we must be unknowing of the true nature of our existence (so that we can decide this for ourselves). But in that unknowing, we can become confused, and frightened, and selfish, and destructive. And this is what we need to overcome ... to be "saved from".

Can we choose it if Jesus is dead and gone?
I would teach that if Christ did not rise from the dead Christians are among all people pitiful.

Rising from the dead is a metaphor for the fact that the message (revelation and promise) that Jesus embodied did not die just because we killed the messenger's body.

Also, the revelation and promise that Jesus embodied has always been available to us, even apart from Jesus. It is written into the nature of existence, and into our own souls. And it could have been recognized at any time by anyone, anywhere. And I am sure that it was, by a few of us. Jesus (via his story) was simply the global representative. Maybe there were others. Who knows? But his message was the one that "stuck". So that now, we no longer have our ignorance as an excuse.

I do see below references to "magical poetic discussion" which you avoid, "confusing poetic language" which can be abused,
religious, relgiosity, "fantastic religiosity" etc. These can be phrases simply to minimalize and dismiss as insignificant what one doesn't
like.

I think we are all better served by clarity when it comes to this subject. I am an artist, so I have no difficulty with the idea or use of poetry. But when it comes to the subject of Christian ideals, a kind of cult of magical literalism has been an ongoing problem for religious Christianity. To avoid this, I choose to avoid the poetic metaphors as much as I can.

You'll find me not ashamed at using the Bible to interpret the Bible.
You'll find me using the words of the Bible and words not in the Bible but seek to convey its meaning.
Much of this is according to experience. I make no apologies for saying some of these things I have personally and collectively with
others experienced.

The biblical text and the history of it's use are intended to be interpreted. As all poetry, myth, metaphor, symbolism, allegory, and so on, is. I have no problem with that. But there are those that want to read the text as though it does not require interpretation. As though it were a newspaper, or a history book. And so, I believe, they miss the whole point of why those scriptures were written and assembled in the first place. And how they were actually used for so many centuries. Worse then that, they miss the wisdom that those texts are intended to pass onto us simply because they're too lazy or controlling to let the text be poetic, mythical, symbolic, allegorical, and so on, and therefor interpreted to be by the readers.

Maybe, if something is incomprehensible in what I wrote, you can just say "Hey, I didn't understand that at all."
But if not, that's your perogative. I get what you're writing I think without such dismissals.

The Gospel of John is I think some of the most profound writing ever written.
I believe both the Apostle John and the Lord Jesus whom he loved knew what they were speaking of.
There is a spiritual dimension here which human words are not easy to convey.
And there is a divine and mystical realm which man needs and poo hoos at his own loss.

I can't dumb it down for you PureX. I can try to ascertain what you're able to receive.
Be back latter.

I assure you I am quite intelligent. You need not "dumb down" anything.

 

[BrokenBread]

Christians too often have superfiscial understanding of John 14.
The thought of Jesus going to Heaven to prepare luxurious mansions there is natural minded.
We Christians need a deeper revelation of the meaning of John 14. Once the vision of what
Jesus is talking about the thought of "going to heaven" as some ultimate destiny for the saved is happily graduated from.

The saved are not going to Heaven for an ultimate destiny but going into a Person - the Triune God for a mingling
of divinity with humanity and the building of the house of God.

I hope participants will enjoy reading first John chapter 14.
Comments?

For me who Jesus is speaking to in this passage is even more important in a prophetic sense ,
He is speaking to those who will be alive on the earth when He comes to gather them .
Clearest reference to the rapture there is within the bible as far as I am concerned ,

Jhn 14:3
.... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Feedmysheep]

For me who Jesus is speaking to in this passage is even more important in a prophetic sense ,
He is speaking to those who will be alive on the earth when He comes to gather them .
Clearest reference to the rapture there is within the bible as far as I am concerned ,

Jhn 14:3
.... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You think He is seaking about the rapture?

His not living them as orphans you take as Him coming a couple of thousand years latter to receive them into Heaven.
But His coming to them not leaving them as orphans is the explanation of the coming of Another Comforter to be with them forever.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,
Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. (John 14:16-18)

Christ entering into His people, filling them, saturating and permeating them with His Spirit must preceed rapture.

He came to indwell them after His resurrection when He did the act of breathing into them.
He breathed into them His pneumatic form. He comforted them and infused them with Himself the evening
of His resurrection. It was then men first received into them the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of reality.

When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and while the doors were shut where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace be to you.

And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord.

Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.

And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:19-22)

 

[BrokenBread]

You think He is seaking about the rapture?

His not living them as orphans you take as Him coming a couple of thousand years latter to receive them into Heaven.
But His coming to them not leaving them as orphans is the explanation of the coming of Another Comforter to be with them forever.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,

The Holy Spirit does not come to "receive us unto Himself " to "take us to where he is " after the Holy Spirit has prepared a place for us .
The Holy Spirit comes to indwell us , not take us someplace He has prepared.
This passage is Jesus speaking prophecy to a future generation .
We Know this because Jesus cannot lie and he has not come yet .
Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.


John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Colt]

Christians too often have superfiscial understanding of John 14.
The thought of Jesus going to Heaven to prepare luxurious mansions there is natural minded.
We Christians need a deeper revelation of the meaning of John 14. Once the vision of what
Jesus is talking about the thought of "going to heaven" as some ultimate destiny for the saved is happily graduated from.

The saved are not going to Heaven for an ultimate destiny but going into a Person - the Triune God for a mingling
of divinity with humanity and the building of the house of God.

I hope participants will enjoy reading first John chapter 14.
Comments?

Many Mansions = other planets where the saved will resurrect and continue on.

 

[Feedmysheep]

It's not about 'believing'. It's about recognizing that divine spirit within us and choosing to allow it to become us.

We are made in the image of God. But since the fall of man we are infested with the Satanic spirit operating in sinful men.
Our spirit is deadened and in a comatose state before forgiveness and regeneration. And the Satanic spirit is operating in us.

And you, though dead in your offenses and sins,
In which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; (Eph. 2:1,2)

This is why Christ said He must go away to prepare a place for us by going to the cross to accomplish eternal redemption.

Seems to me that you are contradicting yourself, here.

I see no contradiction. Man was created as a vessel to contain the uncreated life of God.
But he was not created with this life. He was created "very good" (Gen. 1:31) and neutral in a state ready to choose this life.
That is a living vessel with at first human virtues ready to be filled with the uncreated divine attributes of God in whose image he was made.

1.) Created very good - And God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

2.) Created neutral between two sources of destiny represented by two mutually exclusive trees - And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Gen. 2:9) . . .

And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat freely,
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (vs. 16,17)

The neutral yet good man moved from his position inbetween the two sources that would enter into him.
He took sides with the forbidden choice and became united with the Satanic spirit rather than receive God's divine life into him.

And He said, Who told you that you are naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat? (Gen. 3:11) . . .

And to Adam He said, Because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree concerning which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it; Cursed is the ground because of you; / In toil will you eat of it / All the days of your life.

And thorns and thistles will it bring forth for you, / And you will eat the herb of the field;
By the sweat of your face / You will eat bread / Until you return to the ground, / Because from it you were taken; / For dust you are, / And to dust you shall return. (vs. 17-19)

Free will.

Yes, a free will which caused mankind to be Satanified. A wrong choice which allowed God's enemy to infest humanity like a parasite.

Think of a mother who warns her child not to drink a certain bottle of poison.
Yet not heeding the warning the child under his free will drinks in the poison anyway.

The child has two problems now.
1.) The child has disobeyed the mother damaging the relationship through disobedience.
2.) The child has also taken into himself poison polluting, ruining, and damaging him from within.

The rescue of the child involves not only reconciling to the disobeyed mother, but being healed also
of the poison killing him.

Your interpretation of "free will" causing the need of salvation may not account for fallen man
being joined to God's enemy - Satan.

. . . you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience;

Among whom we also all conducted ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest; (Eph. 2:2,3)

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil one. ( 1 John 5:19)

In order for us to have free will, we must be unknowing of the true nature of our existence (so that we can decide this for ourselves). But in that unknowing, we can become confused, and frightened, and selfish, and destructive. And this is what we need to overcome ... to be "saved from".

Like Thomas Jefferson you are cutting out of the Bible what you deem lies, legends, myth concerning the miraculous resurrection of Christ.
In a Humanism salvaging of the rest a dead Son of God suits your Christless humanistic "good doing".

The Gospel of John covers all kinds of fallen man's situation. And when the upstanding, noble, exemplary "Victor of the People" - Nicodemus
came to Jesus seeking a better moral teaching Jesus said what he needed was a rebirth. It was not a better moral teaching that was needed but
a new birth.

For good sinners and bad sinners the need is the same - for the Son of God to go to the cross to become sin for them under the judgment of
God. He went to prepare a place for them in the Father's house. The nine cases of men and women being saved by Jesus covers varied situations of men being spiritually dead.

Rising from the dead is a metaphor for the fact that the message (revelation and promise) that Jesus embodied did not die just because we killed the messenger's body.

This is making Christ's death just a typical martyrdom. You are saying His death is merely like that of the death of Socrates, Abraham Lincoln, or Martin Luther King.

I believe the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is not mere martyrdom of a good Humanist.
The Bible teaches of the death accomplishing eternal redemption and the factual bodily resurrection.
And in resurrection "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" to implant the only perfect man, perfect God-man, into our being who believe and receive Him.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

Also, the revelation and promise that Jesus embodied has always been available to us, even apart from Jesus.

That's not what the Gospel of John which I believe teaches. It says that the Spirit of Jesus Christ was "not yet" because Jesus
was not yet by that time glorified.

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:37-39)

This Spirit of Jesus Christ flowing out of a man's innermost being was not available until
the resurrection of Christ. For Jesus to be glorified here is for Jesus to be resurrected.

Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory? (Luke 24:26)

And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:23,24)

Then when he went out, Jesus said, Now has the Son of Man been glorified, and God has been glorified in Him.
If God has been glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and He will glorify Him immediately. (John 13:31,32)

I assure you I am quite intelligent. You need not "dumb down" anything.

I agree that you are very intelligent.
But all men need revelation. People of any level of intelligents need the eyes of thier heart to be unveiled. We need the veil to be taken away from that intelligent heart by turning it to the living Christ available as the life giving Spirit that He became.

But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor. 3:16,17)

 

[Feedmysheep]

Many Mansions = other planets where the saved will resurrect and continue on.

If man is not mingled with God going to another planet will only be man taking his problems there.

It could be that all that the kingdom of God will have no end extending in eternity throughout the universe.
Perhaps this is so.

But we are told to seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Then all necessary things will be added.
To seek His righteousness is to be joined in an organic union with Christ and eventually swallowed up in His divine nature.

Otherwise going to heaven or to Mars or to any other planet will just be the transporting of our corruption to a new place.
John 14 is about God building Himself into man and man into Himself.

The Apostle Paul spoke of the believers being builded into a habitation of God in spirit.

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:20-22)

 

[Feedmysheep]

The Holy Spirit does not come to "receive us unto Himself " to "take us to where he is " after the Holy Spirit has prepared a place for us .

The place is a Person. It means a Person we are becomming.
New Jerusalem at the end of the Bible is a living corporate Person the saved are becomming - the union of the Triune God with the redeemed man.

You know it is appropriate that Jesus said He will receive us to Himself.
For the Lord Jesus is the Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17)

For the Holy Spirit to first enter, then fill, then fill more, then saturate, then permeate completely is for Jesus to really receive us to Himself.

To prepare this reality He had to go to Calvary and die to prepare a standing for the justified in God Himself.
First Peter 3:18a - For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God,

In your next post can you present me with a verse that specifically says Christ died in order to bring us to heaven?

The Holy Spirit comes to indwell us ,

Yes this is true.
But transforming us BY the Spirit takes us from one degree of glory to another degree of glory - degree by degree until we are fully
in His image. That is the Spirit taking us to this "place" Christ Himself throughout all of our being.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

not take us someplace He has prepared.

We could not enter into the Triune God or He into us UNLESS Christ accomplished preparation to so by going to the cross.

It is by His death the veil was rent and men could then enter into the Holy of Holies.

Having therefore, brothers, boldness for entering the Holy of Holies in the blood of Jesus,
Which entrance He initiated for us as a new and living way through the veil, that is, His flesh, (Heb. 10:19-20)

Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. (v. 22)

This passage is Jesus speaking prophecy to a future generation .

It starts with the breathing in of Himself as the Holy Spirit on the day of resurrection.
It would be a mistake to postpone Christ receiving us to Himself to the event of the second coming only.

We Know this because Jesus cannot lie and he has not come yet .

He has not lied in that on the day of His resurrection men knew that He is in the Father and they in Him and He in them - an organic mingling.
"That day" is the day of His resurrection and extends forward until the end of the age.

In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20)

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.

There you go. They knew Him as among them for three and a half years.
But on the day of His resurrection from accomplishing eternal redemption the knew Him as one WITHIN them.

Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5)

 

[BrokenBread]

The place is a Person. It means a Person we are becomming.

As you chose.
For me I chose to take Jesus at His Word that the place He says is His Father's House that He is preparing is an actual place & "if it were not so I would have told you"

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

In your next post can you present me with a verse that specifically says Christ died in order to bring us to heaven?

John 14:3
I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Feedmysheep]

As you chose.
For me I chose to take Jesus at His Word that the place He says is His Father's House that He is preparing is an actual place & "if it were not so I would have told you"

I take the whole New Testament at its word. Paul pioneered into this becomming Christ living in Paul or Paul living in union
with Christ.

I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Gal. 2:20)

Because many Christians do not see this living union with Christ, their natural way of thinking interprets Jesus only to mean to
take men off to a happy place.

Here again we see the eternal purpose of God involves conforming the saved to the image of the Firstborn Son of God.

Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; (Rom. 8:29)

But it is much easier for the natural mind to think instead of God wanting to take people off to a happy place - Heaven.
So why not take the New Testament at its word? God's full salvation climaxes in the church growing up into Him.

But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ, (Eph. 4:15)

It is much easier for the natural mind to think only about Jesus taking us to a happy place.

Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (v. 13)

For the natural minded Christian growing up into a "full grown man" is not important. But being whisked off to a happy place Heaven, now THAT is important. The believers arriving at a oneness and the full knowleddge of the Son of God is not important. But the natural
mind thinks being taken to a happy Heaven is what salvation is all about.

This concept is leaven corrupting the pure loaf of the gospel.
It is easy to chew as leavened bread is.

In your next post to me could you explain what is "the growth of God" where with the believers are to GROW?

Colossians 2:19 expressed in the positive - holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God.

What do you think growing with the growth of God means? Do you think it means just accumulating more doctrinal knowledge?
Do you think it just means adding more saved people to the church numerically?

I believe growing with the growth of God is God growing within His people, if they allow Him.

 

[Feedmysheep]

As you chose.
For me I chose to take Jesus at His Word that the place He says is His Father's House that He is preparing is an actual place & "if it were not so I would have told you"

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3
I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus said the Father's house though they destroyed it He would raise it in three days.
He meant His physical body.

Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and You will raise it up in three days?

But He spoke of the temple of His body. (John 2:19-21)

What we need to see is that when He rose He prepared a place for justified sinners within His mystical Body.
Didn't He receive the forgiven into His mystical Body - a Body brought about by His actual resurrection from the dead?

No the mystical Body of Christ is also the house of God the church.
Am I right?

And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church,
Which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all. (Eph, 1:22,23)

 

[BrokenBread]

Jesus said the Father's house though they destroyed it He would raise it in three days.
He meant His physical body.

Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Jesus did not say "house" He said "temple"
To allege that Jesus would equate the temple as being a house containing many "many abiding places" to a group of Jews raised in the shadow of the temple who were quite familiar with it's construction and purpose shows you have little understanding of what passed for legit comparison to the ancient Jews as well as modern day theological gymnastics .

 

[Feedmysheep]

Jesus did not say "house" He said "temple"
To allege that Jesus would equate the temple as being a house containing many "many abiding places" to a group of Jews raised in the shadow of the temple who were quite familiar with it's construction and purpose shows you have little understanding of what passed for legit comparison to the ancient Jews as well as modern day theological gymnastics .

Yes, He did say "temple" in John 2:19. But He used "house" in verse 16.

verse 15b - He drove them all out of the temple,

And to those who were selling the doves He said, Take these things away from here;
do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise.(v.16)

And driving the money changers out of the temple and scolding them about changing the nature of Father's HOUSE
equates the temple and the house.

I think house and temple denote two aspects of this building.
While temple denotes a place for man to worship God house denotes a place where God can rest.
Herein is the two terms related to two aspects of the same building.

As the Apostle Paul speaking of ONE living structure the habitation of God (if you will house or dwelling place) is for God's rest and
also a temple for man to contact and worship God.

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:21,22)

Not only so but in John chapter 1 Jesus strongly indicated that He was the reality, the anti-type of Jacob's vision of BETHEL - the house of God.

Nathanael answered Him, Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel. (John 1:49)
And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you,
You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (v.51)

Here Jesus was referring to the dream Jacpob had in Genesis 28:11-22.
Jesus Christ as the Word that was God and became flesh to tabernacle among us was the God-man BETHER - the house of God.
The house of God is His Father's house.

And if He were the ONLY man in whom God could be at rest in He would have told us that there is no way for us
to enjoy this reality. But He goes to the cross to prepare a way for forgiven and justified sinners to become the church which is His Body.

And without dispute, the house of God "which is the church of the living God."

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)

 

[Feedmysheep]

Jesus did not say "house" He said "temple"
To allege that Jesus would equate the temple as being a house containing many "many abiding places" to a group of Jews raised in the shadow of the temple who were quite familiar with it's construction and purpose shows you have little understanding of what passed for legit comparison to the ancient Jews as well as modern day theological gymnastics .

Yes, He did say "temple" in John 2:19. But He used "house" in verse 16.

verse 15b - He drove them all out of the temple,

And to those who were selling the doves He said, Take these things away from here;
do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise.(v.16)

And driving the money changers out of the temple and scolding them about changing the nature of Father's HOUSE
equates the temple and the house.

I think house and temple denote two aspects of this building.
While temple denotes a place for man to worship God house denotes a place where God can rest.
Herein is the two terms related to two aspects of the same building.

As the Apostle Paul speaking of ONE living structure the habitation of God (if you will house or dwelling place) is for God's rest and
also a temple for man to contact and worship God.

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:21,22)

Not only so but in John chapter 1 Jesus strongly indicated that He was the reality, the anti-type of Jacob's vision of BETHEL - the house of God.

Nathanael answered Him, Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel. (John 1:49)
And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you,
You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (v.51)

Here Jesus was referring to the dream Jacob had in Genesis 28:11-22 of God establishing Bethel the on earth joining earth to heaven.
Jesus Christ as the Word that was God and became flesh to tabernacle among us was the God-man BETHER - the house of God.
The house of God is His Father's house.

And if He were the ONLY man in whom God could be at rest in He would have told us that there is no way for us
to enjoy this reality. But He goes to the cross to prepare a way for forgiven and justified sinners to become the church which is His Body.

And without dispute, the house of God "which is the church of the living God."

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)

 

[BrokenBread]

Jesus did not say "house" He said "temple"
To allege that Jesus would equate the temple as being a house containing many "many abiding places" to a group of Jews raised in the shadow of the temple who were quite familiar with it's construction and purpose shows you have little understanding of what passed for legit comparison to the ancient Jews as well as modern day theological gymnastics .

Yes, He did say "temple" in John 2:19. But He used "house" in verse 16.

verse 15b - He drove them all out of the temple,

And to those who were selling the doves He said, Take these things away from here;
do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise.(v.16)

Different instance & context than when He spoke to His disciples about leaving them to go to a house that contained many abiding places to prepare a place for them and then return to take them there:
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jesus also called the Temple "Your House" when He spoke to people He said were " of your Father the Devil".

Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Do you really think the disciples believed Jesus was headed up to the Temple Mount to prepare a place for them to live and then coming back the next day to take them up to the Temple to live in temple condominiums ?

You have a strong penchant for interchanging biblical context in non-sensical ways .

 

[Feedmysheep]

Jesus did not say "house" He said "temple"
To allege that Jesus would equate the temple as being a house containing many "many abiding places" to a group of Jews raised in the shadow of the temple who were quite familiar with it's construction and purpose shows you have little understanding of what passed for legit comparison to the ancient Jews as well as modern day theological gymnastics .

Yes, He did say "temple" in John 2:19. But He used "house" in verse 16.

verse 15b - He drove them all out of the temple,

And to those who were selling the doves He said, Take these things away from here;
do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise.(v.16)

And driving the money changers out of the temple and now scolding them about changing the nature of Father's HOUSE
equates the temple and the house.

I think house and temple denote two aspects of this building.
While temple denotes a place for man to worship God house denotes a place where God can rest.
Herein is the two terms related to two aspects of the same building.

As the Apostle Paul speaking of ONE living structure the habitation of God (if you will house or dwelling place) is for God's rest and
also a temple for man to contact and worship God.

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:21,22)

Not only so but in John chapter 1 Jesus strongly indicated that He was the reality, the anti-type of Jacob's vision of BETHEL - the house of God.

Nathanael answered Him, Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel. (John 1:49)
And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you,
You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (v.51)

Here Jesus was referring to the dream Jacob had in Genesis 28:11-22 of God establishing Bethel the on earth joining earth to heaven.
Jesus Christ as the Word that was God and became flesh to tabernacle among us was the God-man BETHER - the house of God.
The house of God is His Father's house.

And if He were the ONLY man in whom God could be at rest in He would have told us that there is no way for us
to enjoy this reality. But He goes to the cross to prepare a way for forgiven and justified sinners to become the church which is His Body.

And without dispute, the house of God "which is the church of the living God."

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)

Different instance & context than when He spoke to His disciples about leaving them to go to a house that contained many abiding places to prepare a place for them and then return to take them there:
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jesus also called the Temple "Your House" when He spoke to people He said were " of your Father the Devil".

Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Do you really think the disciples believed Jesus was headed up to the Temple Mount to prepare a place for them to live and then coming back the next day to take them up to the Temple to live in temple condominiums ?

You have a strong penchant for interchanging biblical context in non-sensical ways .

The Lord is moving from the type of the temple to His own body to His own mystical Body.

"Your house" emphasis that they had forsaken God in Matt. 23:38.
Behold YOUR house is left desolate to YOU.

Since the singular is used - "house" it must denote the house of God.
The house which was of God and the temple (21:12-13) of God is now "Your house", not blessed but left desolate.
The Jews had made it aden of robbers usurping it completely from its holy purpose.

And He said to them, It is written, “My house shall be called a house of prayer,” but you are making it a den of robbers.
And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. (Matt. 21:13,14)

This divine demotion of the temple because of their rejection of the Son of God is in
the same nature of His taking the kingdom of God away from them to give to another nation, the church.

Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation producing its fruit. (v. 43)

How much the disciples understood at the time of His speaking the things of chapter 14 is pretty clear.
They did not understand. John writing his gospel many years after understood deeply the significance of His speaking.
He was the last gospel writer to convey these profound things for the world and the believers.

Now there is no argument that Christ produced the church by His redemptive death and resurrection.
There is no argument that Hebrews says the house of the Son we saved are.

But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house, whose house we are if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end. (Heb. 3:6)

How did this house come about? It started when the resurrected redeemer, the Son of God, received us to Himself
once He had accomlished eternal redemption. The church is very profound and is explained by the Holy Spirit as many things.
Among the other aspects of this profound entity Ephesians tells us -

The church is:
1.) the household of God.
2.) the habitation of God in spirit
3.) the holy temple in the Lord

. . . but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit.

I am sorry that you seem so befuddled by the natural minded concept of Jesus going to Heaven
to prepare luxurious mansions that you don't see this.

You're grasping at straws to hold on to this superfiscial view of John.
We Christians should come back to the revelation of the New Testament.
We should not dumb down the NT to accomodate the degradation of Christiandom.

Did you ever explain what "the growth of God" was by which we grow. And what is growing up into Christ the Head in all things?
Don't forget to address that.

The growth of God - And not holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God. (Col. 2:19)

Growing up into Him - But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ, (Eph. 4:15)

 

[Feedmysheep]

Jesus did not say "house" He said "temple"
To allege that Jesus would equate the temple as being a house containing many "many abiding places" to a group of Jews raised in the shadow of the temple who were quite familiar with it's construction and purpose shows you have little understanding of what passed for legit comparison to the ancient Jews as well as modern day theological gymnastics .

Yes, He did say "temple" in John 2:19. But He used "house" in verse 16.

verse 15b - He drove them all out of the temple,

And to those who were selling the doves He said, Take these things away from here;
do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise.(v.16)

And driving the money changers out of the temple and scolding them about changing the nature of Father's HOUSE
equates the temple and the house.

I think house and temple denote two aspects of this building.
While temple denotes a place for man to worship God house denotes a place where God can rest.
Herein is the two terms related to two aspects of the same building.

As the Apostle Paul speaking of ONE living structure the habitation of God (if you will house or dwelling place) is for God's rest and
also a temple for man to contact and worship God.

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:21,22)

Not only so but in John chapter 1 Jesus strongly indicated that He was the reality, the anti-type of Jacob's vision of BETHEL - the house of God.

Nathanael answered Him, Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel. (John 1:49)
And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you,
You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (v.51)

Here Jesus was referring to the dream Jacob had in Genesis 28:11-22 of God establishing Bethel the on earth joining earth to heaven.
Jesus Christ as the Word that was God and became flesh to tabernacle among us was the God-man BETHER - the house of God.
The house of God is His Father's house.

And if He were the ONLY man in whom God could be at rest in He would have told us that there is no way for us
to enjoy this reality. But He goes to the cross to prepare a way for forgiven and justified sinners to become the church which is His Body.

And without dispute, the house of God "which is the church of the living God."

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)

Different instance & context than when He spoke to His disciples about leaving them to go to a house that contained many abiding places to prepare a place for them and then return to take them there:
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jesus also called the Temple "Your House" when He spoke to people He said were " of your Father the Devil".

Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Do you really think the disciples believed Jesus was headed up to the Temple Mount to prepare a place for them to live and then coming back the next day to take them up to the Temple to live in temple condominiums ?

You have a strong penchant for interchanging biblical context in non-sensical ways .

The Lord is moving from the type of the temple to His own body to His own mystical Body.

"Your house" emphasis that they had forsaken God in Matt. 23:38.
Behold YOUR house is left desolate to YOU.

Since the singular is used - "house" it must denote the house of God.
The house which was of God and the temple (21:12-13) of God is now "Your house", not blessed but left desolate.
The Jews had made it aden of robbers usurping it completely from its holy purpose.

And He said to them, It is written, “My house shall be called a house of prayer,” but you are making it a den of robbers.
And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. (Matt. 21:13,14)

This divine demotion of the temple because of their rejection of the Son of God is in
the same nature of His taking the kingdom of God away from them to give to another nation, the church.

Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation producing its fruit. (v. 43)

How much the disciples understood at the time of His speaking the things of chapter 14 is pretty clear.
They did not understand. John writing his gospel many years after understood deeply the significance of His speaking.
He was the last gospel writer to convey these profound things for the world and the believers.

Now there is no argument that Christ produced the church by His redemptive death and resurrection.
There is no argument that Hebrews says the house of the Son we saved are.

But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house, whose house we are if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end. (Heb. 3:6)

How did this house come about? It started when the resurrected redeemer, the Son of God, received us to Himself
once He had accomlished eternal redemption. The church is very profound and is explained by the Holy Spirit as many things.
Among the other aspects of this profound entity Ephesians tells us -

The church is:
1.) the household of God.
2.) the habitation of God in spirit
3.) the holy temple in the Lord

. . . but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit.

I am sorry that you seem so befuddled by the natural minded concept of Jesus going to Heaven
to prepare luxious mansions that you don't see this.

You're grasping at straws to hold on to this superfiscial view of John.
We Christians should come back to the revelation of the New Testament.
We should not dumb down the NT to accomodate the degradation of Christiandom.

Did you ever explain what "the growth of God" was by which we grow. And what is growing up into Christ the Head in all things?
Don't forget to address those matters.

The growth of God - And not holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God. (Col. 2:19)

Growing up into Him - But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ, (Eph. 4:15)