Many many Chariot wheels found at bottom of Red sea.

[Valjean]

I know 100% the flood occurred. All that know and love God do.

But it's how you know this that interests me. Don't believers in other religions make the same claim for their mythology?

 

[Valjean]

Sorry, I thought you were claiming that ...

That is my understanding, in fact.

I'm not claiming there were no Hebrews in Egypt. It was the regional metropolis, after all. I'm claiming that there were no Egyptian texts found regarding "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very much livestock, both flocks and herds." That would have been a good ~2M people.
Wouldn't that have been a pretty large percentage of the Egyptian population, at the time? You'd think such a momentous exodus would be mentioned somewhere besides the Torah, or would have left some archæological evidence.

 

[Valjean]

The true religion obeys Jesus.

Tell that to the Sikhs, Hindus, or Buddhists.

 

[servant1]

According to Jesus' brother James, this is true religion:

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

That is a single mark, there are many marks to look for.

 

[servant1]

No, the various religions claiming to be Christian obeys their various interpretations on the meaning of purported quotes offered by anonymous apologists writing decades after the words were presumably uttered.

Forgive me if I find that less than clear, much less compelling.

And God says he inspired the words. I do understand most translations have been altered.

 

[servant1]

No, you do not. That is a false claim on your part. If you did then you could explain away all of the evidence against the flood in a reasonable way. But you do not even understand the concept of evidence. The simple fact is that you lack the knowledge to make that claim.

Are you willing to learn?

A true follower lives by faith.

 

[servant1]

But it's how you know this that interests me. Don't believers in other religions make the same claim for their mythology?

They do. God will show all.

 

[Valjean]

A true follower lives by faith.

Here we agree. It's a sad truth.

 

[Valjean]

And God says he inspired the words. I do understand most translations have been altered.

No, The Book &/or tradition says that.

 

[Valjean]

They do. God will show all.

So one day we'll all confront Huitzilopochtli?

 

[Wandering Monk]

And God says he inspired the words. I do understand most translations have been altered.

Where does God say that he inspired the words?

 

[oldbadger]

There is no evidence of a large population of Hebrews existing in ancient Egypt -- and in a literate, arid, well-known region like Egypt I'd expect some mention of these Hebrews, as well as some genetic remains.

Oh yes......I expect that the Hebrew population was a mere nothing compared with the claimed 600,000.

If half or more of Egypt's population suddenly left, I'd expect some evidence or mention of such a momentous event.

Maybe the Exodus was a much smaller event and that it grew with the telling?

If a massive population of Hebrews dwelt for 40 years in a desert, I'd expect some archæological evidence left behind.

There couldn't have been a massive Exodus.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not claiming there were no Hebrews in Egypt. It was the regional metropolis, after all. I'm claiming that there were no Egyptian texts found regarding "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, and very much livestock, both flocks and herds." That would have been a good ~2M people.

I was simply responding to what you said. Feel free to slip slide around as you wish.

Wouldn't that have been a pretty large percentage of the Egyptian population, at the time? You'd think such a momentous exodus would be mentioned somewhere besides the Torah, or would have left some archæological evidence.

Of course.

 

[oldbadger]

You are of course free to believe what you will (and to do the research to validate those beliefs), but that is far different than pointing to the fact that a tradition is long-lived as evidence of worth.

What a magnificent post!
This reminds me of your posts from over a decade ago.
Yes, of course my lack of beliefs are just personal, I'm not intending to fight bloody debates over their lack, and sadly I'm stuck with only a mobile at this time for communication.

Now, to the traditions around Passover and exodus.....

Furthermore, the long-lived character of the exodus was and is in many ways the consequence of a story being successfully promoted via a vernacular alphabet and later deemed scripture. In a very real sense it is not a long-lived tradition but a long-lived text.

Very long lived indeed, and no doubt reaching back to the very limits that tradition could hold on to, but I wonder how many cultures celebrate these same or similar events?

And why "escaping of slaves on a large scale" rather than the Hyksos "expulsion," or an 'exodus' by a small group of Egyptian priests later relabelled as Levites, or ... ?

Exactly how many waves of migration have swept through Egypt, through both Upper, Lower and more southern nations and up in to 'Palestinian', Israeli and Syrian districts I have no idea, but I do expect that the passover/exodus story has some fact within it's depths, is all.

As for relevant evidence, the Elephantine papyri and ostraca is intriguing. Note, for example ...

The Elephantine papyri pre-date all extant manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible, and thus give scholars a very important glimpse at how Judaism was practiced in Egypt during the fifth century BCE,[10] as they seem to show evidence of the existence in c. 400 BCE of a polytheistic sect of Jews. It is widely agreed that this Elephantine community originated in the mid-seventh or mid-sixth centuries BCE, likely as a result of Judean and Samaritan refugees fleeing into Egypt during the times of Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.[11] They seem to have had no knowledge of a written Torah or the narratives described therein.[12]​

Judean and Samaritan communities....interesting that there was a division as far back as those times. I wonder how far one would need to go back to find a more united community.
With constant oral repetition maybe a written document was not required, and the law kept safe by sages, rather like the Islamic Hafiz of later centuries?

​

Also important is the fact that the papyri document the existence of a small Jewish temple at Elephantine, which possessed altars for incense offerings and animal sacrifices, as late as 411 BCE. Such a temple would be in clear violation of Deuteronomic law, which stipulates that no Jewish temple may be constructed outside of Jerusalem.[10]: 31​

The laws were constantly and continually being broken, and then returned to, and since Deuteronomy was a second review of all I wouldn't worry about clear violations. That the original Temple was itinerant then this might have caused communities who ceased travels to set up their own centres, maybe?

  Furthermore, the papyri show that the Jews at Elephantine sent letters to the high priest in Jerusalem asking for his support in re-building their temple, which seems to suggest that the priests of the Jerusalem Temple were not enforcing Deuteronomic law at that time. Cowley notes that their petition expressed their pride at having a temple to Ya'u, ' Yahweh ' (no other god is mentioned in the petition) and gave no suggestion that their temple could be heretical.[12]​

If there was a Temple in Jerusalem at that time then the ancient history predates even those distant times?
Imagine that......seeking permission from the centre to bust the old law.
You mentioned Samaritans back in those times, so there was a parallel culture/religion with separate places of worship already.

That Samaritans and Jews were celebrating Passover(exodus) and booths(travels) 2000 years ago sends these traditions so far back before scholarship launches in to the migrations over those lands does suggest to me that there is substance within their memories of such amazing migration as happened to the Semitic people.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And God says he inspired the words.

No, a line in one of the (relatively late and very likely anonymous) pastorals says that ...

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ..." (NRSV)​

almost certainly referring to Hebrew scripture.

 

[oldbadger]

Your point was that because many believe this story then it is more likely to have occurred. Not so, just as many believe other such beliefs, and these also not having an effect on the religious belief necessarily being true. That's all. Numbers don't mean much when provenance cannot be verified.

This tradition was being celebrated 2000 years ago and long before, I expect that you would acknowledge that, yes?

And that celebration was seeking to keep a distant memory alive back then.

If people want to snub it all as myth then the only reason that I can perceive for their attitude is some extreme level of skepticism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That Samaritans and Jews were celebrating Passover(exodus)

Which they were not, but read into it what you wish.

Again quoting Wright ...

The habits, laws, and religious behaviors of the Elephantine community differ starkly from biblical teachings. In fact, some of their most common practices are precisely those that many biblical books proscribe most fervently: they work on the Sabbath; the priests are engaged in intermarriage with outsiders; there is a temple to Yhwh (or "Yahu"); the community makes regular contributions to this deity in addition to a number of other deities (Anat-Bethel and Ashim-Bethel); and Yhwh/Yahu appears to have a wife (her name is Anat-Yahu).​

​

What makes these facts even more shocking is that the Jews of Elephantine maintained close relations with the homeland. When their leaders had questions about cultic practices, or when the needed support for their communal affairs, they wrote to the priestly and lay authorities in both Jerusalem and Samaria. From what we can piece together, the responses from these authorities surprisingly never condemned the community's worship of Anat-Yahu or their labors on the Sabbath. This is therefore not a case of a diasporic community backsliding from "orthodoxy" and embracing a syncretistic form of "paganism," as some scholars claim.​

​

Literacy is also not the issue. Many at Elephantine could read and write, reflecting a wider trend throughout the Persian Empire. The cosmopolitan literature they read included the widely transmitted Proverbs of Ahiqar and the famous Behistun Inscription io King Darius. However, all their texts are in Aramaic, not Hebrew. And closely connected to this fact is a more obvious, yet all the more astounding, one: the biblical writings were not available on this island in the Nile. In fact, no one there seems even to know of their existence, nor do the leaders in Israel ever refer to them!​

 

[Subduction Zone]

A true follower lives by faith.

How would you know? And worse yet faith is not a pathway to the truth.

 

[servant1]

Where does God say that he inspired the words?

2Timothy 3:16

 

[servant1]

No, a line in one of the (relatively late and very likely anonymous) pastorals says that ...

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ..." (NRSV)​

almost certainly referring to Hebrew scripture.

The NT is inspired as well.