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"March for Science protests ramp up around the globe"

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Right.

What interest would a government administration have for creating a nationwide conspiracy to create a lie like climate change made worse by man-made pollution? Why would they all get together and create this huge conspiracy? And, remember, they have stayed faithful to this conspiracy through both republican and democratic administrations, so it can't have anything to do with politics.

A justification to tax and regulate literally every aspect of everybody's lives? An unprecedented transfer of wealth and power from the private to public sector?

I can't possibly imagine what interest politicians would have in this. You are right, what a bizarre conspiracy theory. If we have learned one thing about politicians, it's that they are the most honest, trustworthy, and scientifically rigorous people on the planet. We should trust them implicitly. History shows this is always the best path.

:eek:
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
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.Agw is a religion, and you are one of the true believers... thread here..Religion of Global Warming Exposed by one of their own.

I think that comparison is very unfair... to religion. Anthropocentric climate believers would have to acknowledge their own faith to rise to that distinction. As is, the blind faith that bad weather is caused by bad people angering nature, is the most ancient and backward superstition known to mankind.

People in power have always taken advantage of this to accept 'sacrifices' on Gaia's behalf. Switching scary masks and dances for computer simulations does not make this superstition any less scientifically illiterate!
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I think that comparison is very unfair... to religion. Anthropocentric climate believers would have to acknowledge their own faith to rise to that distinction. As is, the blind faith that bad weather is caused by bad people angering nature, is the most ancient and backward superstition known to mankind.

People in power have always taken advantage of this to accept 'sacrifices' on Gaia's behalf. Switching scary masks and dances for computer simulations does not make this superstition any less scientifically illiterate!
I stand correcting, it should rightly be called a superstitious cult...bad news, Guam could tip over...

 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
So you believe the world's climatologists (and other associated scientists) have been engaging in a deliberate conspiracy to promote global warming for about 40 or 50 years or so?
Perhaps not, but it has become a cause of those who want to control society. Note obama's EPA regulations that gutted jobs for many many people, the war on certain industry's in the country, impossible to meet cafe standards for new cars and many more, that were put in place by fiat, without the people or their representatives having any say in the matter. While China and India the worlds biggest polluters have to do nothing. This the goal of the left, a centralized, breaucratic society where the people have no say, and the benevolent state always knows what is best for them
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
The cause of the recorded warming trend is predominately natural and is due to the variations in solar radiation, ocean currents, convection, and oscillations, cloud cover, volcanic eruptions, earth albedo, atmospheric CO2 GHGs, etc.. All of the aforementioned are fully natural variables except for about 4% of the atmospheric CO2 which is due to human emissions.

Dr Richard Lindzen, the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Sciences, Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. has done the calculations and states that the human contribution only causes about a 2% perturbation of this single natural CO2 variable. In his own words, he states "In this complex multifactor system, what is the likelihood of the climate (which, itself, consists in many variables and not just globally averaged temperature anomaly) is controlled by this 2% perturbation in a single variable? Believing this is pretty close to believing in magic. Instead, you are told that it is believing in ‘science.’ Such a claim should be a tip-off that something is amiss. After all, science is a mode of inquiry rather than a belief structure."
So rather than going around and around in the same circles we did before, let's try a different approach.

It seems we both agree that the current warming trend is real. We both also agree that CO2, methane, N2O, and ozone are greenhouse gases.

Where I live, we're already seeing some effects from this warming in the form of larger, more frequent wildfires; increasing spread of bark beetles; changes in migration patterns in birds and insects; more persistent droughts in the summer, and warmer, wetter winters (with more rain instead of snow). In other parts of the world we're seeing the effects of rising sea levels, increasing acidity of the oceans, melting of the permafrost, loss of certain types of habitats, and other documented effects.

Given all that, would you agree that, regardless of what either of us thinks caused the warming trend over the past 60 years or so, we should do what we can to not add to it? IOW, even if the current trend is mostly natural, we shouldn't be piling on, right? It's like if you have a fire caused by lightning, you don't then go out and throw gas on it just because it was a natural event at the start, right?

As for your graph, there are many way to present data for effect, cherry picking, filters, axis representations, etc.. The fact is, from 1880, the start date on your anomaly graph to now in 2017, the temperature has only increased about 1 degree C, and your Y axis is just a little over 1 C.

So I give you below, a perfectly accurate graph of the same period using with the Y axis showing the actual average annual global temperature in degrees Celsius,

image7.png
I've never seen anyone try and represent changes within a range of 0-10 units on a graph that has a Y-axis with a range of 90 units, in any situation, temperature or otherwise.

I never said the correlation should be year to year, but a 17 years plus pause is a such a significant duration, it is evidence that the climate sensitivity to CO2 is overestimated in the IPCC models. And fyi, the IPCC global temperature projections show a linear trend upwards correlating with linear CO2 increase. So as to clear up the suggestion of cherry picking the data to show the pause, here are some Climategate leaked emails from leading agw priesthood figures who acknowledged the pause in the upward trend in temperature.

Dr. Phil Jones – CRU emails – 5th July, 2005
“The scientific community would come down on me in no uncertain terms if I said the world had cooled from 1998. OK it has but it is only 7 years of data and it isn’t statistically significant….”

Dr. Phil Jones – CRU emails – 7th May, 2009
‘Bottom line: the ‘no upward trend’ has to continue for a total of 15 years before we get worried.’

From: Kevin Trenberth (US National Center for Atmospheric Research). To: Michael Mann. Oct 12, 2009

"The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't... Our observing system is inadequate"


Dr. Mojib Latif – Spiegel – 19th November 2009 “At present, however, the warming is taking a break,”…….”There can be no argument about that.”

Dr. Jochem Marotzke – Spiegel – 19th November 2009 “It cannot be denied that this is one of the hottest issues in the scientific community.... We don’t really know why this stagnation is taking place at this point.”

Dr. Virginie Guemas – Nature Climate Change – 7 April 2013 “…Despite a sustained production of anthropogenic greenhouse gases, the Earth’s mean near-surface temperature paused its rise during the 2000–2010 period…”
I'm not sure what you think those tiny snippets do to support your assertion of a long-running global conspiracy among climatologists. At the worst, those just show climatologists discussing what seemed like a pause in the warming trend, at that time. But as we've now since realized, the trend not only continues, but has significantly accelerated.

But if you think those highly edited quotes demonstrate anything, then please provide their full context. Dishonestly mining quotes is a common creationist tactic, so let's make sure you're not doing the same.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Perhaps not, but it has become a cause of those who want to control society. Note obama's EPA regulations that gutted jobs for many many people, the war on certain industry's in the country, impossible to meet cafe standards for new cars and many more, that were put in place by fiat, without the people or their representatives having any say in the matter.
So then what explains the science? Even if certain politicians utilize the science to further their political goals, that doesn't mean the science itself if fraudulent.
While China and India the worlds biggest polluters have to do nothing.
Um, no.....were you aware that China is leading the world in renewable, green energy? Were you aware that their coal consumption has been in steady decline?

Given the higher overall cost of coal and its associated problems (pollution, extraction), would you have the US fall behind the rest of the world in moving over to cleaner sources of energy? Would you have us stick with dirtier fossil fuels out of spite?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
A justification to tax and regulate literally every aspect of everybody's lives? An unprecedented transfer of wealth and power from the private to public sector?
How so? How has climate change been used to increase taxes on individual citizens?

I can't possibly imagine what interest politicians would have in this. You are right, what a bizarre conspiracy theory. If we have learned one thing about politicians, it's that they are the most honest, trustworthy, and scientifically rigorous people on the planet. We should trust them implicitly. History shows this is always the best path.
Scientists at NASA aren't politicians, so this makes absolutely no sense.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Sadly it's becoming that way with a lot of scientific issues. It seems to be a result of conservatives becoming increasingly anti-science, either for religious reasons (evolution) or due to ties with industry groups (global warming).
Hilarious mr, fly. counter arguments, counter data, coun
So then what explains the science? Even if certain politicians utilize the science to further their political goals, that doesn't mean the science itself if fraudulent.

Um, no.....were you aware that China is leading the world in renewable, green energy? Were you aware that their coal consumption has been in steady decline?

Given the higher overall cost of coal and its associated problems (pollution, extraction), would you have the US fall behind the rest of the world in moving over to cleaner sources of energy? Would you have us stick with dirtier fossil fuels out of spitfall behind the rest of the world in moving over to cleaner sources of energy? Would you have us stick with dirtier fossil fuels out of spite?
The market should be the judge of the fuel we use. If alternate sources can actually survive and compete in a free market environment we all should be happy. Huge government subsidies of taxpayer money for failing or failed alternate energy companies is a total waste, and it has been happening to the tune of billions of dollars, with the nation in the sinkhole of a twenty trillion dollar debt.

Carbon dioxide is the big bugaboo of today for the climate alarmists. uring the jurrasic period the co2 level was five times higher than today, yet that is the period when more species existed and allegedly came about re evolution than any other period. The climate has always cycled from warm to cool, ice age to warm period. The science still doesn't show if and how human activity is contributing to this. There have been warm periods before the industrial revolution. My and millions of others view is prove the harm you think is being done, and how, and if human activity can be proved to be contributing to it, lets look at it. Believe it or not, I am a nature conservationist. To show the knee jerk reactions of climate alarmists, a wind farm was put in a valley where the wind was consistent, they had to rush it in, without really evaluating all factors clearly. Their government subsidized wind farm produced energy, but is in a migratory bird flyway, and has killed migrating birds en masse. My point; identify the problem. Determine if human activity truly, truly is a contributing factor, then determine if and what should be done. is it economically feasible, will it cause more harm than good, is it even possible, will lowering human contributions harm more people in the long run than it will help ? All this running around yelling the sky is falling, and doing ill thought out and expensive remedies for a problem that many, including very well qualified climatologist's say they aren't sure exists, plus the we verses them warfare serves absolutely no purpose.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How so? How has climate change been used to increase taxes on individual citizens?
Heavy subsidies for fashionable (but not cost effective) green energy things like
Tesla cars come from taxpayers, who saw a big tax increase under Obama.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
The market should be the judge of the fuel we use.
And market conditions should include all the costs of various fuels, right?

If alternate sources can actually survive and compete in a free market environment we all should be happy.
Seems to be the way things are headed. The area I live in has been historically dominated by hydropower, but even that relatively clean source of energy is being supplanted by solar and wind....so much so that many of the dams are simply spilling water because there's no need to use it for power generation.

Huge government subsidies of taxpayer money for failing or failed alternate energy companies is a total waste, and it has been happening to the tune of billions of dollars, with the nation in the sinkhole of a twenty trillion dollar debt.
Does that include the billions in subsidies that go to coal and oil?

Carbon dioxide is the big bugaboo of today for the climate alarmists. uring the jurrasic period the co2 level was five times higher than today, yet that is the period when more species existed and allegedly came about re evolution than any other period. The climate has always cycled from warm to cool, ice age to warm period.
This has been discussed in this thread ad nauseum. Again, past warming periods had identifiable natural causes such as orbital changes or solar changes. No such natural cause exists for the current trend, and it is only explained when human activities are factored in.

The science still doesn't show if and how human activity is contributing to this.
Yes it does.

My and millions of others view is prove the harm you think is being done, and how, and if human activity can be proved to be contributing to it, lets look at it.
Already been done and the information is freely available.

Believe it or not, I am a nature conservationist.
So you would agree that, climate effects aside, we should be trying to switch to cleaner sources of energy, right? Oil and coal are quite "dirty" in their extraction, transport, processing, and burning, not to mention the political entanglements they put us in.

So there are lots of reasons to expand cleaner energy sources, don't you agree?

To show the knee jerk reactions of climate alarmists, a wind farm was put in a valley where the wind was consistent, they had to rush it in, without really evaluating all factors clearly. Their government subsidized wind farm produced energy, but is in a migratory bird flyway, and has killed migrating birds en masse.
That shows the folly of rushing without proper planning.

My point; identify the problem. Determine if human activity truly, truly is a contributing factor, then determine if and what should be done. is it economically feasible, will it cause more harm than good, is it even possible, will lowering human contributions harm more people in the long run than it will help ?
Already been done.

All this running around yelling the sky is falling, and doing ill thought out and expensive remedies for a problem that many, including very well qualified climatologist's say they aren't sure exists, plus the we verses them warfare serves absolutely no purpose.
At the very least, moving to cleaner energy reduces pollutants, and reduces things like oil spills and coal slurry spills, right? Isn't that alone enough reason to switch?

And btw, you didn't answer the main question I asked. What is the political motivation for scientists to conspire to promote anthropogenic warming?
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
So rather than going around and around in the same circles we did before, let's try a different approach.

It seems we both agree that the current warming trend is real. We both also agree that CO2, methane, N2O, and ozone are greenhouse gases.

Where I live, we're already seeing some effects from this warming in the form of larger, more frequent wildfires; increasing spread of bark beetles; changes in migration patterns in birds and insects; more persistent droughts in the summer, and warmer, wetter winters (with more rain instead of snow). In other parts of the world we're seeing the effects of rising sea levels, increasing acidity of the oceans, melting of the permafrost, loss of certain types of habitats, and other documented effects.

Given all that, would you agree that, regardless of what either of us thinks caused the warming trend over the past 60 years or so, we should do what we can to not add to it? IOW, even if the current trend is mostly natural, we shouldn't be piling on, right? It's like if you have a fire caused by lightning, you don't then go out and throw gas on it just because it was a natural event at the start, right?


I've never seen anyone try and represent changes within a range of 0-10 units on a graph that has a Y-axis with a range of 90 units, in any situation, temperature or otherwise.


I'm not sure what you think those tiny snippets do to support your assertion of a long-running global conspiracy among climatologists. At the worst, those just show climatologists discussing what seemed like a pause in the warming trend, at that time. But as we've now since realized, the trend not only continues, but has significantly accelerated.

But if you think those highly edited quotes demonstrate anything, then please provide their full context. Dishonestly mining quotes is a common creationist tactic, so let's make sure you're not doing the same.
Ok, we have established common ground as to the actual data on global warming.

The problem then becomes, is the warming (despite your personal regional observation of negative effects) overall a benefit to humanity (we know the world is greening and agricultural production is increasing), or does it have an overall negative effect? If the result of this analysis turned out the latter, then the next question would be, can humans do anything to control the temperate of the planet? If the result of this study turned out to be yes, then the next question would be to find out the cost to do so? If the cost of doing so would result in a general reduction of human living standards, then a study would need to be conducted to see if adaptation was a cheaper alternative.

None of the above has yet been carried out by the UN IPCC, so we are back to square one, the latest Paris COP.

Well perhaps, but an anomaly graph with changes in the range of 1-10 with a Y axis with a range 12 units tells us nothing about temperature variation of the planet relative to actual background absolute temperature. Heck, the normal differential temperature change over 24 hours can be 20 degrees C, and would only be shown on the graph as a few near vertical lines reflecting one degree C swathes of the 20 degree C upward and downward swings of temperature.

The quotes from the climategate emails are unedited. I never mentioned conspiracy, they're your words, anyone and everyone can draw their own conclusions. I posted them to draw attention to the fact of the agw lead scientists acknowledging a pause. I think you are missing something, the pause is back, the El Nino spike only busted it for the last couple of years, as the La Nino arrives, the pause will be almost 20 years.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
And market conditions should include all the costs of various fuels, right?


Seems to be the way things are headed. The area I live in has been historically dominated by hydropower, but even that relatively clean source of energy is being supplanted by solar and wind....so much so that many of the dams are simply spilling water because there's no need to use it for power generation.


Does that include the billions in subsidies that go to coal and oil?


This has been discussed in this thread ad nauseum. Again, past warming periods had identifiable natural causes such as orbital changes or solar changes. No such natural cause exists for the current trend, and it is only explained when human activities are factored in.


Yes it does.


Already been done and the information is freely available.


So you would agree that, climate effects aside, we should be trying to switch to cleaner sources of energy, right? Oil and coal are quite "dirty" in their extraction, transport, processing, and burning, not to mention the political entanglements they put us in.

So there are lots of reasons to expand cleaner energy sources, don't you agree?


That shows the folly of rushing without proper planning.


Already been done.


At the very least, moving to cleaner energy reduces pollutants, and reduces things like oil spills and coal slurry spills, right? Isn't that alone enough reason to switch?

And btw, you didn't answer the main question I asked. What is the political motivation for scientists to conspire to promote anthropogenic warming?
Grant money. During the last eight years climate alarmists got grants, research by those who have questions about man made climate change were pretty much shut out. I agree totally, there should be no subsidies for any energy company's of any kind, or as well as farmers and others. Supply and demand, the market should determine what and who succeeds and who fails. Debt is killing this country, and politicians from both party's ( although democrats are much better at it ) are culpable. This business of pure waste must stop.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
The problem then becomes, is the warming (despite your personal regional observation of negative effects) overall a benefit to humanity (we know the world is greening and agricultural production is increasing), or does it have an overall negative effect?
As I noted earlier, we're already seeing the effects of warming and they're definitely negative. And many of the effects I listed are not local to where I live.

If the result of this analysis turned out the latter, then the next question would be, can humans do anything to control the temperate of the planet? If the result of this study turned out to be yes, then the next question would be to find out the cost to do so? If the cost of doing so would result in a general reduction of human living standards, then a study would need to be conducted to see if adaptation was a cheaper alternative.
So you believe we should hold off on switching to cleaner energy sources until we conduct and agree on all that? Isn't switching to cleaner energy a laudable goal regardless?

The quotes from the climategate emails are unedited.
Yes they are edited. That's what the ellipses ("...") signify.

I think you are missing something, the pause is back, the El Nino spike only busted it for the last couple of years, as the La Nino arrives, the pause will be almost 20 years.
And if it doesn't?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Grant money. During the last eight years climate alarmists got grants
So are you arguing that if a group of scientists get grants to carry out their work, that always means they're engaging in a conspiracy?

research by those who have questions about man made climate change were pretty much shut out.
And your evidence for this is..........?

I agree totally, there should be no subsidies for any energy company's of any kind, or as well as farmers and others. Supply and demand, the market should determine what and who succeeds and who fails. Debt is killing this country, and politicians from both party's ( although democrats are much better at it ) are culpable. This business of pure waste must stop.
So you would agree then that say, oil and coal companies should pay the full costs of their businesses? Also, do you think it's in the national interest to move towards cleaner sources of energy?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
So are you arguing that if a group of scientists get grants to carry out their work, that always means they're engaging in a conspiracy?


And your evidence for this is..........?


So you would agree then that say, oil and coal companies should pay the full costs of their businesses? Also, do you think it's in the national interest to move towards cleaner sources of energy?
Look at the grants and who gets them. It has been well documented ( I will find some articles for you) or ask any non climate alarmist who has applied for a government. Those who got them during obammy's reign are extremely, extremely hard to find.

As I have already said, the government should not be involved in private businesses except for reasonable regulations and enforcement. If a commodity is critical to the people and function of the nation ( i.e., when oil was short the government released government reserves) then government involvement is warranted until the problem is solved.

If alternative energy can compete with gas and oil on the market and it's use doesn't disrupt society i.e. me being forced by the government to drive a tiny electric car with a range of 150 miles and a top of 50 MPH ( shouldn't they buy me a Tesla? , that would be fine). IF the criteria can be met, then ultimately alternate energy sources would be better. Does that answer your question ? My motto is that the government is not the solution to problems but is the problem. The Constitution spells out the responsibilities of the three branches of the federal government and they should follow the instructions. Less government is better government
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Look at the grants and who gets them. It has been well documented ( I will find some articles for you) or ask any non climate alarmist who has applied for a government grant for weather investigation. Those who got them during obammy's reign are extremely, extremely hard to find.

As I have already said, the government should not be involved in private businesses except for reasonable regulations and enforcement. If a commodity is critical to the people and function of the nation ( i.e., when oil was short the government released government reserves) then government involvement is warranted until the problem is solved.

If alternative energy can compete with gas and oil on the market and it's use doesn't disrupt society i.e. me being forced by the government to drive a tiny electric car with a range of 150 miles and a top of 50 MPH ( shouldn't they buy me a Tesla? , that would be fine). IF the criteria can be met, then ultimately alternate energy sources would be better. Does that answer your question ? My motto is that the government is not the solution to problems but is the problem. The Constitution spells out the responsibilities of the three branches of the federal government and they should follow the instructions. Less government is better government
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Look at the grants and who gets them. It has been well documented ( I will find some articles for you) or ask any non climate alarmist who has applied for a government. Those who got them during obammy's reign are extremely, extremely hard to find.
I will wait for you to present this evidence.

Also, do you think scientists, pundits, or politicians who are paid by fossil fuel companies, conservative think tanks, and/or the Koch brothers are also suspect?

If alternative energy can compete with gas and oil on the market and it's use doesn't disrupt society i.e. me being forced by the government to drive a tiny electric car with a range of 150 miles and a top of 50 MPH ( shouldn't they buy me a Tesla? , that would be fine). IF the criteria can be met, then ultimately alternate energy sources would be better. Does that answer your question ? My motto is that the government is not the solution to problems but is the problem. The Constitution spells out the responsibilities of the three branches of the federal government and they should follow the instructions. Less government is better government
Thanks.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I will wait for you to present this evidence.

Also, do you think scientists, pundits, or politicians who are paid by fossil fuel companies, conservative think tanks, and/or the Koch brothers are also suspect?


Thanks.
The supreme court has ruled that campaign money to politicians is , for better or worse, a form of free speech. Pundits are entertainers, where their money comes from is immaterial to me. anyone who listens to them, be they left or right ( George Soros coughs up millions and millions for the left) and takes what they say as fact, without doing even a tiny bit of research is like taking a cartoon characters word as fact. Scientists are in a different category. Their high calling requires total objectivity. Money can corrupt anyone, and does. So, those who are paid by Gore's organization, or solar power lobbying companies, or government grants that require adherence to a stated objective, are suspect as are the ones you listed,
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Scientists are in a different category. Their high calling requires total objectivity. Money can corrupt anyone, and does.
Would you then agree that any scientists paid by fossil fuel interests, conservative think tanks, and/or the Koch brothers are suspect?

So, those who are paid by Gore's organization, or solar power lobbying companies, or government grants that require adherence to a stated objective, are suspect as are the ones you listed,
But you have not shown any sort of evidence that "government grants require adherence to a stated objective". Until you do, it's of no more worth than any other empty assertion, such as "the moon is made of cheese".
 
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