Mary is the most important figure in Christianity

[Estro Felino]

Why can't a synthesis of understanding between ones will and grace be held? What that means is that through our will we choose to be Free, and through Grace we realize it? It is "not of ourselves", in the sense of the ego-seeking mind 'accomplishing' it, but that through our will we set aside the ego-seeking mind and allow Grace to unfold within and transform the individual? So both are at play. Not one without the other.

Well...it depends on what you mean by grace.
In the very moment in which God has given free will to creation (including us), he has renounced to interfere with history. He has never interfered.

Free will means autonomy from God. A person can decide to be sinless and to do good just because they want to, not in order to obey God.

 

[Windwalker]

Well...it depends on what you mean by grace.
In the very moment in which God has given free will to creation (including us), he has renounced to interfere with history. He has never interfered.

By Grace it means to me the always available fully present Spirit. It is not "deserved" in the sense of earned, accomplished, achieved, obtained, etc, but simply there unconditionally. Though we have free will, if we choose to ignore God we end up without that Grace. If we choose to embrace God, it is through Grace we are 'raised up', so to speak. We become, not of our efforts, but of Grace itself as we allow it within us. So it's not a matter of one seizing God, nor a matter of God seizing us, but one of choice to avail oneself of God in order to transcend the world of separation.

Free will means autonomy from God. A person can decide to be sinless and to do good just because they want to, not in order to obey God.

But how does one become sinless if not through Grace?

 

[Estro Felino]

By Grace it means to me the always available fully present Spirit. It is not "deserved" in the sense of earned, accomplished, achieved, obtained, etc, but simply there unconditionally. Though we have free will, if we choose to ignore God we end up without that Grace. If we choose to embrace God, it is through Grace we are 'raised up', so to speak. We become, not of our efforts, but of Grace itself as we allow it within us. So it's not a matter of one seizing God, nor a matter of God seizing us, but one of choice to avail oneself of God in order to transcend the world of separation.
But how does one become sinless if not through Grace?

I swear it God, these are exactly the same words that Augustine said to Pelagius. And it is extraordinary how the debate is still alive with the same points.
Well, I think that I do not possess the absolute truth, so I perfectly understand your (and all Christians') perspective, which I respect profoundly: If I didn't, I wouldnt join the Catholic Church, which is based upon Augustinian theology.

I simplify things, because I believe that reality is simple. Our future, even in the afterlife, is in our hands.
This letter explains Pelagius' (and my) perspective
http://silouanthompson.net/library/early-church/pelagius-to-demetrias/

 

[Windwalker]

I swear it God, these are exactly the same words that Augustine said to Pelagius. And it is extraordinary how the debate is still alive with the same points.

If so, then what most people understand Augustine to be saying is not what he was saying then, or greatly misunderstood. In no way do I subscribe to a doctrine of "total depravity". I believe mankind to be inherently good, and that through our choice we are able to avail ourselves of that goodness. But it is only available by our stopping our strivings to obtain this. It is already fully ours. It is from that Source, our Ground of Being, God, that this ours and always has been. The availing of it is by our simply allowing it to transform us from within. That is what Grace is. It is not by our efforts, but our efforts to not make effort and allow.

Now, if this is what Augustine taught, then why is it I don't hear it taught in many if any Christian churches?

Well, I think that I do not possess the absolute truth, so I perfectly understand your (and all Christians') perspective, which I respect profoundly: If I didn't, I wouldnt join the Catholic Church, which is based upon Augustinian theology.

I simplify things, because I believe that reality is simple. Our future, even in the afterlife, is in our hands.

You do understand the difference between the ego's striving to obtain, which is self-facing and hence seeing only what it ultimately is which is an illusion, and moving beyond the ego and its self-seeking to realize God within? Do you believe we can 'storm' the gates of heaven as seize the prize in our own efforts?

You see, I see what I am saying as taking what Augustine said partially, and what Pelagius said partially, and wedding to the two together, possibly.

This letter explains Pelagius' (and my) perspective
Letter of Pelagius to Demetrias

I look into that later as I have time to read through all of it.

 

[Estro Felino]

You do understand the difference between the ego's striving to obtain, which is self-facing and hence seeing only what it ultimately is which is an illusion, and moving beyond the ego and its self-seeking to realize God within? Do you believe we can 'storm' the gates of heaven as seize the prize in our own efforts?

I believe that Heaven is not a prize. The Afterlife is made up of our choices on Earth. So, it's we who determine what our afterlife will look like. Obviously this is my personal humble opinion. In the afterlife freewill will be more visible to anyone.

You see, I see what I am saying as taking what Augustine said partially, and what Pelagius said partially, and wedding to the two together, possibly.

well...I even think that Saint Paul is wrong when he said that we can be saved by faith alone. So, I think that Augustine just quotes Paul

 

[JM2C]

But she is the protagonist of Christianity because it was her who erased sin from human nature, that is, in her heart.

Blasphemy!

 

[JM2C]

She "challenged" God because she wanted to show him that a human being can be sinless and pure. And she was sinless and pure.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
"All", meaning: including Mary “have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

 

[JM2C]

well...maybe Heresy. But not blasphemy

In your other thread it says, “The reasons why hundreds of Pagans converted to Christianity” and in this one, “Mary is the most important figure in Christianity”
I guess from paganism to Christianity then back to paganism again should be your next thread.

 

[Reverend Rick]

You keep saying this, but it's pretty ridiculous, and unfounded. If they wanted to drop Jesus out of the sky, or have him materialize from the dirt, they could have. If they wanted a man to become pregnant, or have Jesus constructed from Joseph's rib, they could have written any of these things. -- Human women don't have virgin births, and yet Jesus is said to be born of a virgin. What makes you think men not being able to give birth prevented them from having a man give birth?

Even now medically a woman could have a virgin birth.

Why something so simple is focused upon is beyond me.

 

[paarsurrey]

Well...it depends on what you mean by grace.
In the very moment in which God has given free will to creation (including us), he has renounced to interfere with history. He has never interfered.

Free will means autonomy from God. A person can decide to be sinless and to do good just because they want to, not in order to obey God.

One could do both the things together; like:

A person could firmly resolve not to do evil and to do good just because of love of goodness or virtue which is the same as to obey G-d.

Love of virtue and love of obeying G-d are points on the same rightful or straight path.

Regards

 

[Shiranui117]

Well...it depends on what you mean by grace.
In the very moment in which God has given free will to creation (including us), he has renounced to interfere with history. He has never interfered.

Free will means autonomy from God. A person can decide to be sinless and to do good just because they want to, not in order to obey God.

Are you trying to say that God has never interacted with mankind, never helped the people of Israel, never became man and dwelt among us?

 

[paarsurrey]

Even now medically a woman could have a virgin birth.

Why something so simple is focused upon is beyond me.

Like how? Please

Regards

 

[CMike]

Do you think it is impossible to be sinless?

We are all human.

Humans make boo boos. All of them make boo boos.

 

[sojourner]

I have the right to believe that the concept of "Christ's sacrifice which washes away the sins of mankind" is absurd and anti-Christian.
I have the right to believe that Jesus came to teach us the law. Not to die for our sins.

This:

I guess that Muslims have understood the exact essence of Jesus Christ and Mary. Firstly in the sura Maryam you read that Mary is the emblem of the perfect human nature, which is absolutely true.

is delirium. The Muslims have not understood the exact essence of Jesus, or they would acknowledge him as the second Person of the Trinity.
Saint Paul has distorted the meaning of Christ's coming.

This:

Saint Paul has distorted the meaning of Christ's coming.

is delirium, if you think that Paul thought that Jesus "had to die."

You have the right to believe what you want. Everyone has the right to be wrong. And when you've sufficiently deluded yourself as to the facts, I shall be happy to point that out.

 

[sojourner]

I think you should have more respect toward Islam, which is a peaceful and tolerant religion. I do care what the Qu'ran says about Jesus, and I am honored, as a Christian, that the Muslims consider Jesus one of the main prophets of Islam.

I have a lot of respect for Islam. Part of that respect is that I don't try to correct the tenets of their beliefs through biblical "proof." I, in turn, appreciate their respect by not denuding Jesus of his Divinity through Koranic "proof."

 

[Shiranui117]

I think you should have more respect toward Islam, which is a peaceful and tolerant religion. I do care what the Qu'ran says about Jesus, and I am honored, as a Christian, that the Muslims consider Jesus one of the main prophets of Islam.

If you disagree so much with the Bible and Christianity, and agree so much with the Muslims, why are you not a Muslim?

 

[sojourner]

I believe that Heaven is not a prize. The Afterlife is made up of our choices on Earth. So, it's we who determine what our afterlife will look like. Obviously this is my personal humble opinion. In the afterlife freewill will be more visible to anyone.



well...I even think that Saint Paul is wrong when he said that we can be saved by faith alone. So, I think that Augustine just quotes Paul

Here's where you and I have major differences. The afterlife is made up of our having been reconciled to God. God determines what that afterlife is, because all existence is God. Our "choice" is to embrace the reality of that existence.

As far as Paul is concerned, faith isn't what you think it is. Faith isn't a detached set of formulaic beliefs. Faith, for Paul, is a dynamic way of living one's life.

 

[sojourner]

In the very moment in which God has given free will to creation (including us), he has renounced to interfere with history. He has never interfered.

Free will means autonomy from God. A person can decide to be sinless and to do good just because they want to, not in order to obey God.

I disagree. Free will constitutes the choice to live a life freely within God, because if we don't live in God, we're not really living. God interacts with us precisely as air fills out lungs, as cellular mitosis takes place, as we derive nutrients from the sun, as we derive fulfillment and joy from healthy relationships.

 

[Estro Felino]

If you disagree so much with the Bible and Christianity, and agree so much with the Muslims, why are you not a Muslim?

I disagree with Saint Paul exclusively, not with Jesus. Paul was not Christ. So I am not forced to believe in Saint Paul.
And if you ask me, Paul's soul was rotten and impure.
A person who says: "I would like to do good, but I do evil" is a bit devilish.
I would have replied him: "Who forces you to do Evil?"

 

[Estro Felino]

This:is delirium, if you think that Paul thought that Jesus "had to die."
.

well...Paul said implicitly that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary.
Because he says that we are saved through his sacrifice.
Ergo...his sacrifice was necessary, otherwise we couldn't save ourselves.