Mary mother of God

[kepha31]

Israel is the firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH Exodus 4:22.
Who was the mother of Israel the firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH? Not Mary .

Mary is the Daughter of Zion.

The mystery of Israel and the Church is summed up in a marvelous way in Mary, who is at once the exemplary daughter of Zion, the culmination of the faith of Israel, the most perfect disciple of Christ, and the Mother of the Church and of every human being, insofar as all are called to be members of the Church. She is the most perfect link between the Old and the New Covenants. Mary is at one and the same time the perfect summary, exemplar, and recapitulation of the faith of Israel, and the Mother of the new Israel, the Church.
Mary, Daughter of Zion and Mother of the Church - Pentecost 2011​

Scripture answer:
JERUSALEM ABOVE is the mother of us all that would include Mary the mother of Jesus.

willyah

JERUSALEM ABOVE didn't give birth to the Son of God. You have some of it right, but are off track. You are mixing a metaphor with something literal. But I think you are having trouble reconciling JERUSALEM ABOVE with the Old Testament and the maternal function in the history of salvation.

Zephaniah [3:14-18a-20] speaks of the Daughter of Zion, the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Let us reflect on the significance of this title of the holy city of Jerusalem and see how and why the Church appropriated the title for Mary, Mother of the Lord.

Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Zion was the name of the Jebusite citadel that later became the City of David. In the many texts of the Old Testament that speak of the Daughter of Zion, there is no real distinction to be made between a daughter of Zion and the city of Jerusalem itself.

In the Old Testament, the title Virgin of Israel is the same as the Daughter of Zion. The image of the bride of the Lord is found in Hosea, Chapters 1-3: It reflects the infidelity of the people to their God.

Jeremiah 3:3-4 speaks of prostitution and the infidelity of the bride. Virginity in the Old Testament is fidelity to the Covenant. In 2 Corinthians 11:2, Paul speaks of the Church as a pure virgin. Here, virginity is the purity of faith.

Throughout the Old Testament, it is in Zion-Jerusalem that God shall gather together all of his people. In Isaiah 35:10, the tribes of Israel shall gather in Zion. In Ezekiel 22:17-22, the prophet describes God's purification of his people that shall take place "within" the walls of the city, in the midst of Jerusalem.

The Hebrew word used to describe this inner section of the city is "beqervah," a word formed from the root "qerev" meaning something deep, intimate, situated deep within a person. It also means the maternal womb, the intestines, the breast, the insides of a person, the most secret area of one's soul where wisdom, spirit, malice and the Law of the Lord dwell.
Therefore, the city of Jerusalem has a definite maternal function in the history of salvation.
Shout for Joy, O Daughter Zion! | ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome​

That is a scripture answer, and is affirmed by Exodus 4:22.

 

[kjv4me2you]

Mary is the Daughter of Zion.

The mystery of Israel and the Church is summed up in a marvelous way in Mary, who is at once the exemplary daughter of Zion, the culmination of the faith of Israel, the most perfect disciple of Christ, and the Mother of the Church and of every human being, insofar as all are called to be members of the Church. She is the most perfect link between the Old and the New Covenants. Mary is at one and the same time the perfect summary, exemplar, and recapitulation of the faith of Israel, and the Mother of the new Israel, the Church.
Mary, Daughter of Zion and Mother of the Church - Pentecost 2011​

JERUSALEM ABOVE didn't give birth to the Son of God. You have some of it right, but are off track. You are mixing a metaphor with something literal. But I think you are having trouble reconciling JERUSALEM ABOVE with the Old Testament and the maternal function in the history of salvation.

Zephaniah [3:14-18a-20] speaks of the Daughter of Zion, the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Let us reflect on the significance of this title of the holy city of Jerusalem and see how and why the Church appropriated the title for Mary, Mother of the Lord.

Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Zion was the name of the Jebusite citadel that later became the City of David. In the many texts of the Old Testament that speak of the Daughter of Zion, there is no real distinction to be made between a daughter of Zion and the city of Jerusalem itself.

In the Old Testament, the title Virgin of Israel is the same as the Daughter of Zion. The image of the bride of the Lord is found in Hosea, Chapters 1-3: It reflects the infidelity of the people to their God.

Jeremiah 3:3-4 speaks of prostitution and the infidelity of the bride. Virginity in the Old Testament is fidelity to the Covenant. In 2 Corinthians 11:2, Paul speaks of the Church as a pure virgin. Here, virginity is the purity of faith.

Throughout the Old Testament, it is in Zion-Jerusalem that God shall gather together all of his people. In Isaiah 35:10, the tribes of Israel shall gather in Zion. In Ezekiel 22:17-22, the prophet describes God's purification of his people that shall take place "within" the walls of the city, in the midst of Jerusalem.

The Hebrew word used to describe this inner section of the city is "beqervah," a word formed from the root "qerev" meaning something deep, intimate, situated deep within a person. It also means the maternal womb, the intestines, the breast, the insides of a person, the most secret area of one's soul where wisdom, spirit, malice and the Law of the Lord dwell.
Therefore, the city of Jerusalem has a definite maternal function in the history of salvation.
Shout for Joy, O Daughter Zion! | ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome​

That is a scripture answer, and is affirmed by Exodus 4:22.

Yehoshua said God is Spirit. The rcc teaches Mary is the mother of God, but Mary never birthed Spirit. Mary never birthed any spirit not even the spirit Son Christ that was with Israel thereby making Israel the Firstborn Son of YHWH -YaH ( Exo 4:22).

Mary did not birth Israel the first born Son of YHWH-YaH.

(Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: Israel the Firstborn Son.

Israel became the Firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH because the spirit Son Chist was in Israel. Mary had nothing to do with Israel being the First born Son of God.

These three verses show us the spirit Son Christ in Israel.

Isaiah speaking 1. (Isa 63:10 KJV) But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

2. (Isa 63:11 KJV) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

3. (1 Pet 1:11 KJV) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Mary is not the mother of spirits or souls and she was not the mother of the spirit of Yehoshua nor was she the mother of Yehoshua's soul, rather God is Spirit and is the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9) and it was YHWH-YaH who breathed the breath of life in the first Adam and he became a living soul (Gen 2:7). So we know spirit and soul are from God who is Spirit and breath-soul ( Isa 1:14) .

(Heb 12:9 KJV) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

(Gen 2:7 KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(Isa 1:14 KJV) Your new moons and your appointed feasts my ( YHWH-YaH's ) soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Mary is not Jerusalem above the mother of us and if you make Mary earthly Jerusalem you make her an Arab harlot.

(Gal 4:24 KJV) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

(Gal 4:25 KJV) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

(Gal 4:26 KJV) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Gal 4:27 KJV) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Gal 4:27 says "for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband."
Mary had a husband Joseph; whereas Jerusalem above did not have a husband.

(Rev 21:9 KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

(Rev 21:10 KJV) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife...............and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


willyah

 

[kepha31]

Yehoshua said God is Spirit. The rcc teaches Mary is the mother of God, but Mary never birthed Spirit, Mary never birthed any spirit not even the spirit Son of Christ that was with Israel the Firstborn Son of YHWH -YaH Exo 4:22)

You are separating flesh from Spirit into two natures. Mary gave birth to a Person, not two distinct natures. I don't know why you are so resistant to this truth and insist on following the heresiarch Nestorius. The Incarnation means God came down from heaven and fused his spirit with the flesh of a humble woman. God united Himself with his creation. This miracle is extended in the Eucharist.

Mary did not birth Israel the first born Son of YHWH-YaH.

That is not what I said. PERSONIFICATION is not a literal form. Please re-read my post.

(Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Israel the Firstborn Son.

God is using "first born son:Israel" as a metaphor for all the Hebrew people, Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. You are at a loss to explain why scripture says "daughter" and not "son of Zion". Sons of Zion can be found, but notice the masculine is always plural.

Israel became the Firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH because the spirit Son Christ was in Israel and Mary had nothing to do with that fact.

Mary is a human, born in a point in time, a person. You seem to insist that "first born son: Israel" is a single person, which doesn't make any sense.

These three verses show us the spirit Son Christ in Israel....

I accept the pre-existence of Christ from eternity, there is no need for irrelevant quotes.

Mary is not the mother of spirits or souls and she was not the mother of the spirit of Yehoshua nor was she the mother of Yehoshua's soul, rather God is Spirit and is the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9) and it was YHWH-YaH who breathed the breath of life in the first Adam and he became a living soul (Gen 2:7). So we know spirit and soul are from God who is Spirit and breath-soul ( Isa 1:14) .

Your rambling. Mary is the mother of humanity, largely because she is human. The mystery of Israel and the Church is summed up in a marvelous way in Mary, who is at once the exemplary daughter of Zion, the culmination of the faith of Israel, the most perfect disciple of Christ, and the Mother of the Church and of every human being, insofar as all are called to be members of the Church. She is the most perfect link between the Old and the New Covenants. Mary is at one and the same time the perfect summary, exemplar, and recapitulation of the faith of Israel, and the Mother of the new Israel, the Church.

(Heb 12:9 KJV) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

At what point in the life of a 1st century Jewish rabbi no long required to be subject to his parents?

(Gen 2:7 KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Irrelevant
.

(Isa 1:14 KJV) Your new moons and your appointed feasts my ( YHWH-YaH's ) soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Irrelevant

Mary is not Jerusalem above the mother of us and if you make Mary earthly Jerusalem you make her an Arab harlot.

Not once did I say Mary was the earthy Jerusalem, you just can't comprehend my post.

(Gal 4:24 KJV) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Irrelevant

(Gal 4:25 KJV) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

(Gal 4:26 KJV) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Yes, the Jerusalem which is above, so why do you throw up walls when I try to explain Daughter of Zion as a personification of Jerusalem?

(Gal 4:27 KJV) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Irrelevant. Paul is quoting from Isaias who prophesied the conversion of the Gentiles.

Gal 4:27 says "for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband."
Mary had a husband Joseph; whereas Jerusalem above did not have a husband.

Your mixing literary forms, that's why this doesn't make sense.

(Rev 21:9 KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Great! The Lamb is married to the Church, expressed in Revelation as a woman. Maybe we are getting somewhere.

 

[psychoslice]

The way they pray to Mary, you would think she was divine, with their rosary's and all.

 

[kepha31]

An Ordinary Woman and Mother of God
by Catherine Doherty

Consider Mary as she really is. Everybody honors Our Lady. Of course she is to be honored. She is the Mother of God. But I would like to tell of her ordinary life.

There are many women like me (the author) who feel that she is so high up that nobody can touch her. It is true that she is high up, but she is also very ordinary.

What did she do all day? I imagine she washed and scrubbed and cleaned. She was married to a carpenter. She wasn't a big shot in Nazareth. Nazareth was a small town. Joseph wasn't a big shot, just a carpenter.

She tended to her husband and Son, especially when he was small. She cooked, she scrubbed and she washed and wove and attended to the garden and did the laundry. Our Lady was the first person who really knew how to do the will of God in its minute details.

I revel in her normality because she is ordinary and at the same time extraordinary. It was an ordinary household and that is a most fantastic thing. Our Lord chose for his mother a working woman; that's what she was, a working woman.

She got up in the morning, and on some days of the week carried the laundry to the pool. The women of Nazareth must have come to her constantly because she was who she was. She must have kept, not a cookie jar, but the Eastern sweets that all the Eastern people love, and children must have come to her.

I think of her in realistic terms, but I also think of her as the woman with the power to stand silently under the cross of her Son, and in some sort of an incredible way, I understand that at that moment she became the mother of all humanity, for whom he died.

She's the woman of speech and she's the woman of silence. She's stronger than an army in battle array and as weak with God as only a woman can be. She dusted and she cleaned. And she cooked and she knew how to weave.

She wove his seamless garment. Her life was a sea of small things so infinitely small that they're almost not worth mentioning. The corn had to be ground, her house swept, the meals prepared; day after day the Mother of God did those things.

From her we can learn the quality of listening, and of taking up the words of others as well as the words of God, holding them in our hearts until the Holy Spirit cracks them wide open and gives us the answer as he did to her as her Spouse.

You asked me to explain who Our Lady is. You could say that she's the gate. She's the gate to the way to the Father, because it is through her that Christ came to us and it is through her that we return to him.

 

[kepha31]

The way they pray to Mary, you would think she was divine, with their rosary's and all.

In the Christian world, it is common and normal to pray for others. We ask her to pray FOR us, not TO her. There is not a single official Catholic document over 2000 years that says Mary is divine. That is a common misconception; I suppose it's because of our rosary's and all.
I would be happy to explain what the rosary really is, if you are interested.

 

[kjv4me2you]

You are separating flesh from Spirit into two natures. Mary gave birth to a Person, not two distinct natures. I don't know why you are so resistant to this truth and insist on following the heresiarch Nestorius. The Incarnation means God came down from heaven and fused his spirit with the flesh of a humble woman. God united Himself with his creation. This miracle is extended in the Eucharist.


That is not what I said. PERSONIFICATION is not a literal form. Please re-read my post.


God is using "first born son:Israel" as a metaphor for all the Hebrew people, Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. You are at a loss to explain why scripture says "daughter" and not "son of Zion". Sons of Zion can be found, but notice the masculine is always plural.

Mary is a human, born in a point in time, a person. You seem to insist that "first born son: Israel" is a single person, which doesn't make any sense.

I accept the pre-existence of Christ from eternity, there is no need for irrelevant quotes.

Your rambling. Mary is the mother of humanity, largely because she is human. The mystery of Israel and the Church is summed up in a marvelous way in Mary, who is at once the exemplary daughter of Zion, the culmination of the faith of Israel, the most perfect disciple of Christ, and the Mother of the Church and of every human being, insofar as all are called to be members of the Church. She is the most perfect link between the Old and the New Covenants. Mary is at one and the same time the perfect summary, exemplar, and recapitulation of the faith of Israel, and the Mother of the new Israel, the Church.



At what point in the life of a 1st century Jewish rabbi no long required to be subject to his parents?


Irrelevant
.

Irrelevant

Not once did I say Mary was the earthy Jerusalem, you just can't comprehend my post.


Irrelevant


(Gal 4:26 KJV) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Yes, the Jerusalem which is above, so why do you throw up walls when I try to explain Daughter of Zion as a personification of Jerusalem?

Irrelevant. Paul is quoting from Isaias who prophesied the conversion of the Gentiles.


Your mixing literary forms, that's why this doesn't make sense.


Great! The Lamb is married to the Church, expressed in Revelation as a woman. Maybe we are getting somewhere.

kjv4me2you said: Yehoshua said God is Spirit. The rcc teaches Mary is the mother of God, but Mary never birthed a
Spirit, Mary never birthed any spirit not even the spirit Son of Christ that was with Israel the Firstborn Son of
YHWH -YaH (Exo 4:22).
................................

kepha 31 said: You are separating flesh from Spirit into two natures. Mary gave birth to a Person, not two

distinct natures. I don't know why you are so resistant to this truth and insist on following the heresiarch

Nestorius. The Incarnation means God came down from heaven and fused his spirit with the flesh of a humble woman.

God united Himself with his creation. This miracle is extended in the Eucharist.
................................

KJV replies:

TWO NATURES?

I never said two natures, but now that you mention it. Mary gave birth to the person Jesus who was a mortal man

made of a woman ( Gal 4:4) therefore he would die once. (Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to

die, but after this the judgment:

(Gal 4:4 KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the

law,

Jesus was made under the law ( during the time of the Mosaic law ) and grace and truth came by Jesus.
(John 1:17 KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

THE SPIRIT SON THAT CHRIST
Once Jesus the son of Mary was anointed at about age 30 by the spirit Son Christ; it was then Jesus' ministry

began as that Christ of grace and truth. (John 1:17 KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

(Luke 3:22 KJV) And the SPIRIT SON CHRIST-Holy Ghost-G4151 descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and

a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

THAT CHRIST
(John 6:68 KJV) Then Simon Peter answered him, Master, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

(John 6:69 KJV) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

(John 7:36 KJV) What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I

am, thither ye cannot come?

(John 7:37 KJV) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst,

let him come unto me, and drink.

(John 7:38 KJV) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of

living water.

(John 7:39 KJV) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy

Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

(John 7:40 KJV) Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

(John 7:41 KJV) Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

(John 7:42 KJV) Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of

Bethlehem, where David was?

(John 7:43 KJV) So there was a division among the people because of him.


THE ANOINTING SPIRIT SON CHRIST
The spirit Son Christ was not made of a woman and he was not the son of Mary. The spirit Son Christ existed as

the anointing long before Mary and her son Jesus existed as mortals.

It was the spirit Son Christ in Israel the firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH when YHWH delivered Israel from Egyptian

bondage.

As far as your saying Exodus 4:22 was God is using "first born son:Israel" as a metaphor for all the Hebrew

people.

I would remind you that a firstborn son in a family is not all the people in a family and you will notice that

Exo 4:22 says firstborn son ( singular ) and not firstborn sons ( plural) . When a woman has twins there still

is a firstborn twin.

There are no scriptures that say "firstborn sons" in scripture. There are sons and daughters of God.
(2 Cor 6:18 KJV) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith YHWH-YaH Shaddai.

NO EUCHARIST IN ACTS, EPISTLES, REVELATION

Eucharist is not a miracle it is a greek word meaning thanks.

Euchairst is not a name from YHWH-YaH nor is eucharist the name of Jesus.

No apostles or disciples in Acts or the Epistles or Revelation EVER do a RCC Eucharist consisting of body eating

and blood drinking of Christ during the 63 years the new testament was being written by the Apostles.
..................................

kepha 31 said: Mary gave birth to a Person
.................................

Mary did not birth Israel the first born Son of YHWH-YaH Exo 4:22.

KJV replies: Mary gave birth to the person Jesus the Last Adam. (1 Cor 15:45 KJV) And so it is written, The

first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a revitalized spiritG2227.

YHWH-YaH God was NEVER the Last Adam and the Last Adam was never God. The last Adam Jesus was never God but he

was a revitalized spiritG2227. God a Spirit ( John 4:24 ) never needs His Spirit revitalized.

It was the spirit of man in Last Adam Yehoshua's that needed revitalized in (Luke 3:22 KJV) And the spirit Son

Christ-G4151 descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Yehoshau, and a voice came from heaven, which said,

Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

When the spirit of the man Jesus was revitalized by the anointing of the spirit Son Christ then Jesus became the

Christ the beloved Son of YHWH-God.

.................................

Kepha said: The Incarnation means God came down from heaven and fused his spirit with the flesh
.................................

KJV replies: I do not believe in the Incarnation.

God did not FUSE His Spirit with the flesh of Mary a sinner????

(Luke 1:49 KJV) For YHWH that is mighty hath done to me-Mary great things; and holy is God's name (YHWH-

pronounced as YaH ).

Mary said Holy is God's name. Scripture says God's name is YHWH-YaH. (Psa 68:4 KJV) Sing unto God, sing praises

to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name YaH, and rejoice before YaH.

Mary did magnify and rejoiced before YHWH-YaH her Saviour. Only a sinner needs a Saviour.

(Luke 1:46 KJV) And Mary said, My soul doth magnify YHWH-YaH,

(Luke 1:47 KJV) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary feared God.
(Luke 1:50 KJV) And God's mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

(Luke 1:30 KJV) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
(Luke 1:31 KJV) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name

JESUS.

Mary's son Jesus ( Acts 1:14 ) was not named God or YHWH-Yah. (Acts 1:14 KJV) These all continued with one accord

in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

.................................

kepha 31 said: God came down from heaven.
................................

KJV replies:

YHWH is everywhere; YHWH-YaH does not come down from heaven.

KJV replies: (Psa 139:8 KJV) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou

art there.

(Psa 139:9 KJV) If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

(Psa 139:10 KJV) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Which of your three God's came down from heaven? Jesus said God is Spirit ( singular ) but your church declares

God is 3 in 1.

..................................

KJV asks:
Question for you kepha 31. Are you a member of KEPHA The Brotherhood of the Iron Will?
.................................

Kepha said: God is using "first born son:Israel" as a metaphor for all the Hebrew people, Daughter of Zion is the

personification of the city of Jerusalem. You are at a loss to explain why scripture says "daughter" and not "son

of Zion". Sons of Zion can be found, but notice the masculine is always plural.
..................................

KJV 31 replies: Jacob's name was changed to Israel and Israel was no metaphor. Israel being called firstborn Son

of YHWH-YaH is not metaphor.

(Gen 32:28 KJV) And YHWH-YaH said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou

power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Exodus 4:22 is not a metaphor anymore than Jacob's name being changed to Israel is a metaphor. Israel existed as

a nation and still does exist as a nation. YHWH-YaH delivered Israel out of bondage to Egypt and YHWH-YaH tells

Moses to tell Pharaoh (Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou ( Moses) shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH-YaH, Israel is

my Son, even YHWH-YaH's firstborn:

willyah

You are separating flesh from Spirit into two natures. Mary gave birth to a Person, not two distinct natures. I don't know why you are so resistant to this truth and insist on following the heresiarch Nestorius. The Incarnation means God came down from heaven and fused his spirit with the flesh of a humble woman. God united Himself with his creation. This miracle is extended in the Eucharist.


That is not what I said. PERSONIFICATION is not a literal form. Please re-read my post.


God is using "first born son:Israel" as a metaphor for all the Hebrew people, Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. You are at a loss to explain why scripture says "daughter" and not "son of Zion". Sons of Zion can be found, but notice the masculine is always plural.


Mary is a human, born in a point in time, a person. You seem to insist that "first born son: Israel" is a single person, which doesn't make any sense.

I accept the pre-existence of Christ from eternity, there is no need for irrelevant quotes.

Your rambling. Mary is the mother of humanity, largely because she is human. The mystery of Israel and the Church is summed up in a marvelous way in Mary, who is at once the exemplary daughter of Zion, the culmination of the faith of Israel, the most perfect disciple of Christ, and the Mother of the Church and of every human being, insofar as all are called to be members of the Church. She is the most perfect link between the Old and the New Covenants. Mary is at one and the same time the perfect summary, exemplar, and recapitulation of the faith of Israel, and the Mother of the new Israel, the Church.



At what point in the life of a 1st century Jewish rabbi no long required to be subject to his parents?


Irrelevant
.

Irrelevant

Not once did I say Mary was the earthy Jerusalem, you just can't comprehend my post.


Irrelevant


(Gal 4:26 KJV) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Yes, the Jerusalem which is above, so why do you throw up walls when I try to explain Daughter of Zion as a personification of Jerusalem?

Irrelevant. Paul is quoting from Isaias who prophesied the conversion of the Gentiles.


Your mixing literary forms, that's why this doesn't make sense.


Great! The Lamb is married to the Church, expressed in Revelation as a woman. Maybe we are getting somewhere.

 

[kjv4me2you]

kjv4me2you said: Yehoshua said God is Spirit. The rcc teaches Mary is the mother of God, but Mary never birthed a Spirit, Mary never birthed any spirit not even the spirit Son Christ that was with Israel the Firstborn Son of YHWH -YaH (Exo 4:22).
................................

kepha 31 said: You are separating flesh from Spirit into two natures. Mary gave birth to a Person, not two
distinct natures. I don't know why you are so resistant to this truth and insist on following the heresiarch
Nestorius. The Incarnation means God came down from heaven and fused his spirit with the flesh of a humble woman. God united Himself with his creation. This miracle is extended in the Eucharist.
................................

KJV replies:

TWO NATURES?

I never said two natures, but now that you mention it. Mary gave birth to the person Jesus who was a mortal man made of a woman ( Gal 4:4) therefore he would die once. (Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

(Gal 4:4 KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Jesus was made under the law ( during the time of the Mosaic law ) and grace and truth came by Jesus.
(John 1:17 KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

THE SPIRIT SON THAT CHRIST
Once Jesus the son of Mary was anointed at about age 30 by the spirit Son Christ; it was then Jesus' ministry began as that Christ of grace and truth. (John 1:17 KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

(Luke 3:22 KJV) And the SPIRIT SON CHRIST-Holy Ghost-G4151 descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

THAT CHRIST
(John 6:68 KJV) Then Simon Peter answered him, Master, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

(John 6:69 KJV) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

(John 7:36 KJV) What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

(John 7:37 KJV) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst,
let him come unto me, and drink.

(John 7:38 KJV) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of
living water.

(John 7:39 KJV) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the spirit Son Christ the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

(John 7:40 KJV) Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

(John 7:41 KJV) Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

(John 7:42 KJV) Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of

Bethlehem, where David was?

(John 7:43 KJV) So there was a division among the people because of him.


THE ANOINTING SPIRIT SON CHRIST
The spirit Son Christ was not made of a woman and he was not the son of Mary. The spirit Son Christ existed as the anointing long before Mary and her son Jesus existed as mortals.

It was the spirit Son Christ in Israel the firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH when YHWH delivered Israel from Egyptian bondage.

As far as your saying Exodus 4:22 was God is using "first born son:Israel" as a metaphor for all the Hebrew
people.

I would remind you that a firstborn son in a family is not all the people in a family and you will notice that

Exo 4:22 says firstborn son ( singular ) and not firstborn sons ( plural) . When a woman has twins there still
is a firstborn twin.

There are no scriptures that say "firstborn sons" in scripture. There are sons and daughters of God.
(2 Cor 6:18 KJV) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith YHWH-YaH Shaddai.

NO EUCHARIST IN ACTS, EPISTLES, REVELATION

Eucharist is not a miracle it is a greek word meaning thanks.

Eucharist is not a name from YHWH-YaH nor is eucharist the name of Jesus.

No apostles or disciples in Acts or the Epistles or Revelation EVER do a RCC Eucharist consisting of body eating and blood drinking of Christ during the 63 years the new testament was being written by the Apostles.
..................................

kepha 31 said: Mary gave birth to a Person
.................................

Mary did not birth Israel the first born Son of YHWH-YaH Exo 4:22.

KJV replies: Mary gave birth to the person Jesus the Last Adam. (1 Cor 15:45 KJV) And so it is written, The
first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a revitalized spiritG2227.

YHWH-YaH God was NEVER the Last Adam and the Last Adam was never God. The last Adam Jesus was never God but he was a revitalized spiritG2227. God a Spirit ( John 4:24 ) never needs His Spirit revitalized.

It was the spirit of man in Last Adam Yehoshua's that needed revitalized in (Luke 3:22 KJV) And the spirit Son

Christ-G4151 descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Yehoshau, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

When the spirit of the man Jesus was revitalized by the anointing of the spirit Son Christ then Jesus became the Christ the beloved Son of YHWH-God.

.................................

Kepha said: The Incarnation means God came down from heaven and fused his spirit with the flesh
.................................

KJV replies: I do not believe in the Incarnation.

God did not FUSE His Spirit with the flesh of Mary a sinner????

(Luke 1:49 KJV) For YHWH that is mighty hath done to me-Mary great things; and holy is God's name (YHWH-pronounced as YaH ).

Mary said Holy is God's name. Scripture says God's name is YHWH-YaH. (Psa 68:4 KJV) Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name YaH, and rejoice before YaH.

Mary did magnify and rejoiced before YHWH-YaH her Saviour. Only a sinner needs a Saviour.

(Luke 1:46 KJV) And Mary said, My soul doth magnify YHWH-YaH,

(Luke 1:47 KJV) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary feared God.
(Luke 1:50 KJV) And God's mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

(Luke 1:30 KJV) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
(Luke 1:31 KJV) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Mary's son Jesus ( Acts 1:14 ) was not named God or YHWH-Yah. (Acts 1:14 KJV) These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

.................................

kepha 31 said: God came down from heaven.
................................

KJV replies:

YHWH is everywhere; YHWH-YaH does not come down from heaven.

KJV replies: (Psa 139:8 KJV) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

(Psa 139:9 KJV) If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

(Psa 139:10 KJV) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Which of your three God's came down from heaven? Jesus said God is Spirit ( singular ) but your church declares God is 3 in 1.

..................................

KJV asks:
Question for you kepha 31. Are you a member of KEPHA The Brotherhood of the Iron Will?
.................................

Kepha said: God is using "first born son:Israel" as a metaphor for all the Hebrew people, Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. You are at a loss to explain why scripture says "daughter" and not "son of Zion". Sons of Zion can be found, but notice the masculine is always plural.
..................................

KJV 31 replies: Jacob's name was changed to Israel and Israel was no metaphor. Israel being called firstborn Son of YHWH-YaH is not metaphor.

(Gen 32:28 KJV) And YHWH-YaH said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Exodus 4:22 is not a metaphor anymore than Jacob's name being changed to Israel is a metaphor. Israel existed as a nation and still does exist as a nation. YHWH-YaH delivered Israel out of bondage to Egypt and YHWH-YaH tells

Moses to tell Pharaoh (Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou ( Moses) shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH-YaH, Israel is my Son, even YHWH-YaH's firstborn:

willyah

........................
kepha 31 said:
Your rambling. Mary is the mother of humanity, largely because she is human. The mystery of Israel and the Church

is summed up in a marvelous way in Mary, who is at once the exemplary daughter of Zion, the culmination of the faith of Israel, the most perfect disciple of Christ, and the Mother of the Church and of every human being, insofar as all are called to be members of the Church. She is the most perfect link between the Old and the New Covenants. Mary is at one and the same time the perfect summary, exemplar, and recapitulation of the faith of Israel, and the Mother of the new Israel, the Church.

........................

KJV replies: Mary is not the mother of humanity = (Gen 3:20 KJV) And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Mary is not the mother of the church = (Gal 4:26 KJV) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Eve is the mother of all living mortal who die once whereas Jerusalem abve is the mother of us all ( born again believers) (1 Pet 1:23 KJV) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Mary was not the mother of Israel the church in the wilderness. = (Acts 7:38 KJV) This is he, that was in the
church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

(Acts 7:36 KJV) He brought them out, after that he had showed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

(Acts 7:37 KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall YHWH-YaH your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

(Acts 7:38 KJV) This is the spirit of Christ, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which
spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Peter referrs to Deut 18:18 in (Acts 3:22 KJV) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall YHWH-YaH your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

(Deu 18:17 KJV) And YHWH-YaH said unto me-Moses, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

(Deu 18:18 KJV) I-YHWH-YaH will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren ( Israel) , like unto thee-Moses, and will put my-YHWH-YaH's words in his ( Jesus') mouth; and he-Jesus shall speak unto them ( Israel) all that I-YHWH-YaH shall command him-Jesus.

No scripture calls Mary the mother of the church. Acts 1:14 declares Mary the mother of the Last Adam man Jesus ( 1 Cor 15:45) .

The term "New Israel" does not exist in holy scripture but the Israel of God will always exist. (Gal 6:16 KJV)

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

(Rev 21:9 KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

(Rev 21:10 KJV) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

(Rev 21:11 KJV) Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

(Rev 21:12 KJV) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

(Rev 21:13 KJV) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

(Rev 21:14 KJV) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

(Rev 21:12 KJV) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

KJV said: Mary is not Jerusalem above the mother of us and if you make Mary earthly Jerusalem you make her an Arabian harlot .
..................

kepha 31 said:Not once did I say Mary was the earthy Jerusalem, you just can't comprehend my post.

..................

KJV replies: did you not say Mary was the mother of humanity-earthly-mortals and is not Jerusalem now called a harlot? (Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city ( Jerusalem now-earthy

Gal 4:25 ) , which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our master was crucified.


(Gal 4:22 KJV) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

(Gal 4:23 KJV) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

(Gal 4:24 KJV) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

(Gal 4:25 KJV) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in

bondage with her children.

(Gal 4:26 KJV) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

...................
kepha 31 said: Yes, the Jerusalem which is above, so why do you throw up walls when I try to explain Daughter of Zion as a personification of Jerusalem?
...................

KJV replies: Mount Zion is not Jerusalem above rather it is of Jerusalem above while Mount Sinai is of earthy Jerusalem.
................

kepha saidGal 4:27 KJV) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou

that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


Irrelevant. Paul is quoting from Isaias who prophesied the conversion of the Gentiles.

..................
kjv said: No scripture verse is ever irrelevant.

Yes Paul is quoting Isa Isaiah 54:1 in Gal 4:27 says "for the desolate ( Jerusalem above the mother of us all ) hath many more children than she which hath an husband."

(Gen 16:3 KJV) And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

Sarai gave Hagar to Abram which then made Abraham the proxy husband of Hagar.

Proxy is an agent or substitute authorized to act for another person or a document which authorizes the agent so to act.

The birth of Ishmael made Abraham by proxy the husband of Hagar.

Mary had a husband Joseph; whereas Jerusalem above the mother of us all does not have a husband therefore; Mary is not Jerusalem above the mother of us all nor is she mother of the church-churches.
No believer comes to Mary. (Heb 12:22 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
(Heb 12:24 KJV) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

..................
kepha 31 said: Your mixing literary forms, that's why this doesn't make sense.
............................
KJV replies:
Coffman's commentaries.
Gal 4:27 is quoted from Isaiah 54:1, the application being Sarah a Hebrew and Hagar an Arabian, as follows: Sarah at first had no child, but when the promise of Isaac was fulfilled, her posterity exceeded that of Hagar; but in the instance of the spiritual fulfillment of this, the numberless "spiritual children of Sarah" in the church of
the living God even more overwhelmingly outnumber those of Hagar.
Agar-Hagar was a Gentile an Arabian who now symbolizes earthy Jerusalem and her children in bondage.
..........................

KJV said (Rev 21:9 KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
(Rev 21:10 KJV) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

The bride of Christ is Jerusalem above the great city..

 

[kjv4me2you]

In the Christian world, it is common and normal to pray for others. We ask her to pray FOR us, not TO her. There is not a single official Catholic document over 2000 years that says Mary is divine. That is a common misconception; I suppose it's because of our rosary's and all.
I would be happy to explain what the rosary really is, if you are interested.

Regarding the picture at the end of your post.

(1 Cor 13:3 KJV) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

(1 Cor 13:4 KJV) Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

(1 Cor 13:5 KJV) Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

(1 Cor 13:6 KJV) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

(1 Cor 13:7 KJV) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

(1 Cor 13:8 KJV) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

(1 Cor 13:9 KJV) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

(1 Cor 13:10 KJV) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

willyah

 

[kepha31]

KJV asks:
Question for you kepha 31. Are you a member of KEPHA The Brotherhood of the Iron Will?

.................................
Glad you asked. I never heard of it, but I did look it up. I found some interesting articles in it though.
My user name "kepha" is Aramaic for Peter, (which means ROCK) my real name. Jesus spoke Aramaic. He said to Peter, in Aramaic, "Thou art Kepha and on this Kepha I will build My Church". Check an Aramaic Bible. There is no gender in the Aramaic language. Matthew transliterated the Aramaic into Greek. We know what "rock" means.

Your scriptural bulldozer tactic just proves you can't comprehend my post either, and about half are in fact irrelevant to the topic. I'm not going to waste my time with a scripture by scripture analysis and refutation of your abuses, and I don't appreciate your misrepresentations and putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Try to avoid posting long lists of scripture quotes because few people read them.

kjv4me2you said: Yehoshua said God is Spirit. The rcc teaches Mary is the mother of God, but Mary never birthed a Spirit, Mary never birthed any spirit not even the spirit Son of Christ that was with Israel the Firstborn Son of YHWH -YaH (Exo 4:22).

Mary gave birth to a Person, not a Half'n'half. You make a false dichotomy with Spirit and flesh, similar to the Nestorian heresy. You have also ignored what I said about "first born son" which clearly refers to Israel. "first born son" is not in reference to "spirit Son of Christ" but to Israel. You object to "Mother of God" because the title is not explicit in scripture but it's ok for you to invent "spirit Son of Christ", a title that is not in scripture either.
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my first-born.
You twist what I said with twisted eisegesis and that is why I am not going to waste my time refuting each one of your scriptural contortions.

“A significant part of the divisiveness between Catholic and Protestant traditions has indeed been the place of the Virgin Mary in both faith and practice. Yet we must recognize that the split has been magnified beyond its real dimensions by misunderstandings on both sides, with Protestants accusing Catholics of using Mary to replace Christ and Catholics accusing Protestants of completely ignoring her position in Christian history. In the long run, both accusations are unfounded and serve only to further splinter the family of our Lord at a time when that family needs desperately to pull together.”
Charles Dickson, A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary (Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division, Our Sunday Visitor, Inc., c. 1996), p. 107.
​

It's my turn to jump on the scriptural bulldozer. (citation followed by a sound exegesis of the text)

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word "saints" (in Hebrew "qaddiysh") means "holy" ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.​

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

 

[kjv4me2you]

.................................
Glad you asked. I never heard of it, but I did look it up. I found some interesting articles in it though.
My user name "kepha" is Aramaic for Peter, (which means ROCK) my real name. Jesus spoke Aramaic. He said to Peter, in Aramaic, "Thou art Kepha and on this Kepha I will build My Church". Check an Aramaic Bible. There is no gender in the Aramaic language. Matthew transliterated the Aramaic into Greek. We know what "rock" means.

Your scriptural bulldozer tactic just proves you can't comprehend my post either, and about half are in fact irrelevant to the topic. I'm not going to waste my time with a scripture by scripture analysis and refutation of your abuses, and I don't appreciate your misrepresentations and putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Try to avoid posting long lists of scripture quotes because few people read them.


Mary gave birth to a Person, not a Half'n'half. You make a false dichotomy with Spirit and flesh, similar to the Nestorian heresy. You have also ignored what I said about "first born son" which clearly refers to Israel. "first born son" is not in reference to "spirit Son of Christ" but to Israel. You object to "Mother of God" because the title is not explicit in scripture but it's ok for you to invent "spirit Son of Christ", a title that is not in scripture either.
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my first-born.
You twist what I said with twisted eisegesis and that is why I am not going to waste my time refuting each one of your scriptural contortions.

“A significant part of the divisiveness between Catholic and Protestant traditions has indeed been the place of the Virgin Mary in both faith and practice. Yet we must recognize that the split has been magnified beyond its real dimensions by misunderstandings on both sides, with Protestants accusing Catholics of using Mary to replace Christ and Catholics accusing Protestants of completely ignoring her position in Christian history. In the long run, both accusations are unfounded and serve only to further splinter the family of our Lord at a time when that family needs desperately to pull together.”
Charles Dickson, A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary (Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division, Our Sunday Visitor, Inc., c. 1996), p. 107.
​

It's my turn to jump on the scriptural bulldozer. (citation followed by a sound exegesis of the text)

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word "saints" (in Hebrew "qaddiysh") means "holy" ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.​

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

 

[kjv4me2you]

Mary gave birth to a Person, not a Half'n'half. You make a false dichotomy with Spirit and flesh, similar to the Nestorian heresy. You have also ignored what I said about "first born son" which clearly refers to Israel. "first born son" is not in reference to "spirit Son of Christ" but to Israel.

You said Exo. 4:22 was God speaking a metaphor regarding Israel being the the firstborn Son of YHWH..
Israel had the spirit Son Christ which is the reason YHWH-YaH said Israel is my Son even my firstborn.
(Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH-YaH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Every believer has the spirit Son Christ: Gal 4:6 and because they do they are called sons, but Israel is called God's Son singular even YHWH-YaH's firstborn and Israel was not God's sons plural that difference is significant.

Read what I said about firstborn regarding twins. Even with twins there is a firstborn.

(Gal 4:6 KJV) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
(1 Peter 1:11 KJV) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them-Israel did signify, when it-Israel ( the firstborn Son of God) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

"Mother of God" because the title is not explicit in scripture but it's ok for you to invent "spirit Son of Christ",

Mary never birthed any spirit not even the spirit Son Christ that was with Israel the Firstborn Son of
YHWH -YaH (Exo 4:22).

The "of " does not belong. It should read " spirit Son Christ: (Gal 4:6 KJV) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of God's Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

(Gen 3:15 KJV) And I will put enmity-hatred between thee-the serpent and the woman-Eve, and between thy-the serpents seed and her-Eve's seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15 does not refer to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman").
Gen 3:15 refers to Eve the mother of all living.
You are wrong about "The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Better look at (Rev 12:17 KJV) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:17 is that born again seed of Eve.
(1 Pet 1:23 KJV) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
(Luke 8:11 KJV) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

G4690
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): - issue, seed.


willyah

 

[kjv4me2you]

In the Christian world, it is common and normal to pray for others. We ask her to pray FOR us, not TO her. There is not a single official Catholic document over 2000 years that says Mary is divine. That is a common misconception; I suppose it's because of our rosary's and all.
I would be happy to explain what the rosary really is, if you are interested.

The words of Cardinal Marc Ouellet of Quebec City, in his profound, opening address to the Synod of Bishops on "The Word of God in the Life and Mission of the Church" in October 2008: "A woman, Mary, perfectly accomplishes the divine vocation of humanity by her 'yes' to the Word of Covenant and her mission. Through her divine motherhood and her spiritual motherhood, Mary appears as the permanent model and form for the Church, like the first Church."

In 2009 Cardinal Marc Ouellet said through Mary's divine motherhood and her spiritual motherhood, Mary appears as the permanent model and form for the Church, like the first Church."

Marc Ouellet got it wrong.
The Epistles were written to churches and Revelation mentions seven churches.

(Rev 1:20 KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The Apostle Paul said:
(1 Cor 7:17 KJV) But as God hath distributed to every man, as YHWH-YaH hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

The church's in the new covenant are like the 12 tribes of Israel as independent tribes yet all were a part of the nation Israel as a whole. The head of all the new covenant church's is Christ and the head of Christ is God.

(Eph 5:23 KJV) For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

(1 Cor 11:3 KJV) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

willyah

 

[kjv4me2you]

Mary is the Daughter of Zion.

The mystery of Israel and the Church is summed up in a marvelous way in Mary, who is at once the exemplary daughter of Zion, the culmination of the faith of Israel, the most perfect disciple of Christ, and the Mother of the Church and of every human being, insofar as all are called to be members of the Church. She is the most perfect link between the Old and the New Covenants. Mary is at one and the same time the perfect summary, exemplar, and recapitulation of the faith of Israel, and the Mother of the new Israel, the Church.
Mary, Daughter of Zion and Mother of the Church - Pentecost 2011​

JERUSALEM ABOVE didn't give birth to the Son of God. You have some of it right, but are off track. You are mixing a metaphor with something literal. But I think you are having trouble reconciling JERUSALEM ABOVE with the Old Testament and the maternal function in the history of salvation.

Zephaniah [3:14-18a-20] speaks of the Daughter of Zion, the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Let us reflect on the significance of this title of the holy city of Jerusalem and see how and why the Church appropriated the title for Mary, Mother of the Lord.

Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Zion was the name of the Jebusite citadel that later became the City of David. In the many texts of the Old Testament that speak of the Daughter of Zion, there is no real distinction to be made between a daughter of Zion and the city of Jerusalem itself.

In the Old Testament, the title Virgin of Israel is the same as the Daughter of Zion. The image of the bride of the Lord is found in Hosea, Chapters 1-3: It reflects the infidelity of the people to their God.

Jeremiah 3:3-4 speaks of prostitution and the infidelity of the bride. Virginity in the Old Testament is fidelity to the Covenant. In 2 Corinthians 11:2, Paul speaks of the Church as a pure virgin. Here, virginity is the purity of faith.

Throughout the Old Testament, it is in Zion-Jerusalem that God shall gather together all of his people. In Isaiah 35:10, the tribes of Israel shall gather in Zion. In Ezekiel 22:17-22, the prophet describes God's purification of his people that shall take place "within" the walls of the city, in the midst of Jerusalem.

The Hebrew word used to describe this inner section of the city is "beqervah," a word formed from the root "qerev" meaning something deep, intimate, situated deep within a person. It also means the maternal womb, the intestines, the breast, the insides of a person, the most secret area of one's soul where wisdom, spirit, malice and the Law of the Lord dwell.
Therefore, the city of Jerusalem has a definite maternal function in the history of salvation.
Shout for Joy, O Daughter Zion! | ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome​

That is a scripture answer, and is affirmed by Exodus 4:22.

No mention of Mary in Heb 12:22-24.

Heb 12:22 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

(Heb 12:23 KJV) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

(Heb 12:24 KJV) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

willyah

 

[kepha31]

The words of Cardinal Marc Ouellet of Quebec City, in his profound, opening address to the Synod of Bishops on "The Word of God in the Life and Mission of the Church" in October 2008: "A woman, Mary, perfectly accomplishes the divine vocation of humanity by her 'yes' to the Word of Covenant and her mission. Through her divine motherhood and her spiritual motherhood, Mary appears as the permanent model and form for the Church, like the first Church."

In 2009 Cardinal Marc Ouellet said through Mary's divine motherhood and her spiritual motherhood, Mary appears as the permanent model and form for the Church, like the first Church."

Marc Ouellet got it wrong.
The Epistles were written to churches and Revelation mentions seven churches.

(Rev 1:20 KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The Apostle Paul said:
(1 Cor 7:17 KJV) But as God hath distributed to every man, as YHWH-YaH hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

The church's in the new covenant are like the 12 tribes of Israel as independent tribes yet all were a part of the nation Israel as a whole. The head of all the new covenant church's is Christ and the head of Christ is God.

(Eph 5:23 KJV) For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

(1 Cor 11:3 KJV) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

willyah

No, you got Cardinal Marc Ouellet wrong. The BLESSED VIRGIN MARY played a necessary, but subordinate, role in God's plan of salvation, and is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.
Luke 1:42 "...all generations shall call me BLESSED".
Do you?
Do you honestly think there was nothing special about the BLESSED Virgin Mary's love for her Son? Who was declared by an angel 100% FULL OF GRACE???

You make the "Jesus in your heart" an orphan.

.

 

[moorea944]

No, you got Cardinal Marc Ouellet wrong. The BLESSED VIRGIN MARY played a necessary, but subordinate, role in God's plan of salvation, and is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.
Luke 1:42 "...all generations shall call me BLESSED".
Do you?
Do you honestly think there was nothing special about the BLESSED Virgin Mary's love for her Son? Who was declared by an angel 100% FULL OF GRACE???

You make the "Jesus in your heart" an orphan.

.

Actually, the bible doesnt say, "all generations shall call me BLESSED". Elisabeth was talking to Mary and stated that she is blessed among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Even Gabriel tells her that too.

Can you show us the verse that says she is %100 full of Grace?

 

[lovemuffin]

Actually, the bible doesnt say, "all generations shall call me BLESSED". Elisabeth was talking to Mary and stated that she is blessed among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Even Gabriel tells her that too.

That's a separate verse. Luke reports Mary saying: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed" (Luke 1:46-48)

Can you show us the verse that says she is %100 full of Grace?

The "100%" seems like an allusion to the dogma of the immaculate conception, and insofar as it's a technical sort of dogma in the way you're talking about grace in relation to sin, I don't think that implication is strictly Biblical. But the inspiration for it comes from Luke 1:28 and 1:30, when the Angel says to her "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" and "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God".

That's the ESV translation, but for example in 1:28 the Greek for "favored one" is κεχαριτωμένη, the root being charis, which is grace. It's difficult to translate because it's a participle, something literally like "being favored with grace". The same root is used in 1:30. "You have found grace from God". "Grace" and "favor" are near synonyms, both of which capture something in the definition of χαρις.

 

[JM2C]

Praying to dead people is not just a waste of time, it is an insult to God. Why would anyone pray to a human whe we can go directly to God, who is the one who answers prayers, through His Son Jesus. Prayer is a form of worship. We should never pray to humans, including the Savior's Mother, Mary. Mary is to be loved, respected and honored, but she should never be worshiped or prayed to.

Mt 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling [meaningless repetition like praying the rosary] like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Mt 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Mt 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “ ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

The Lord Jesus Christ said, “This, then, is how you should pray: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name”

He did NOT say, “holy mary, mother of god, pray for us sinners X50” [meaningless repetition]

JN 16:26 “ In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

True Christians will be able to present their own petitions directly to God in Jesus name.

AC 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Phil 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

IOW, only in the name of Jesus.

 

[JM2C]

As long as Christianity says Jesus is God, Mother, by technicality, is the Mother of God. She is the Mother of Jesus as a human. She is not the Mother of God the Father.

RO 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

RO 1:2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

RO 1:3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,

RO 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

According to the flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ is the son of David/Mary. According to the Spirit, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't see what you're implying in relation to my original post?

edit: Which one of my posts are you replying to?

RO 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

RO 1:2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

RO 1:3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,

RO 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

According to the flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ is the son of David/Mary. According to the Spirit, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.