kepha31
Active Member
There is no such thing as a dead saint. It is an oxymoron and it is not in the Bible. It reflects the error of the Sadducees that denied the resurrection of the just. Intercession of the saints has ALWAYS been part of Christianity until the so called reformers came along 500 years ago with their rebellious human opinions. People who die and go to heaven are more alive than you, me, or anyone on earth. Being deaf, dumb, and blind to the affairs of the earth is NOT a heavenly reward.
It is a unifying verse, you turn it into a dichotomy that isn't there. God's will is done in heaven, and we pray that what God's will is done in heaven, be done on earth as well. The division of the Family of God in heaven from the Family of God on earth is a human invention, the Church is ONE family. God does not have a separate love of one over the other.
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love. Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER
No, that is scriptural nearsightedness and that is NOT what it says. Jesus makes no distinction between Himself and the Father.
John 20 Amen, amen I say to you, that you shall lament and weep, but the world shall rejoice; and you shall be made sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
[21] A woman, when she is in labour, hath sorrow, because her hour is come; but when she hath brought forth the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
Why does Jesus say "woman" and not "women"?
Why does Jesus say "a man is born" and not "a child is born"?
Could there be a two-fold meaning here?
[22] So also you now indeed have sorrow;
Does Jesus mean the disciples will have labor pains, or is Jesus using the term " a woman" giving birth as a personification of the Church, suffering through the Crucifixion? If Jesus is speaking symbolically, are the disciples whom He is addressing symbols too? Do you think Jesus is speaking off-the-cuff when He says, "woman"?
God said “woman” in Genesis 3:15, and He said “woman” in Rev. 12:17 The only two places in scripture where you have a woman and a serpent in the same verse.. Genesis and Revelation, the beginning and the end of the Bible.
God said “women” at the Wedding of Cana, and He said “woman” while dying on the cross. The beginning and the end of his of His earthly ministry.
Mary opens the scriptures like a dazzling display of fireworks with a sincere search in both Testaments, or you can just read the package.
Luke 2…34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed--35and a sword will pierce even your own soul-- to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."
Who are the many?
"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'
Who are the many?
I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice; and your joy no man shall take from you. [23] And in that day you shall not ask me any thing. Amen, amen I say to you: if you ask the Father any thing in my name, he will give it you.
[24] Hitherto you have not asked any thing in my name. (because Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, that's why the "hitherto") Ask, and you shall receive; that your joy may be full. [25] These things I have spoken to you in proverbs. The hour cometh, when I will no more speak to you in proverbs, but will shew you plainly of the Father.
[26] In that day you shall ask in my name; and I say not to you, that I will ask the Father for you: [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again I leave the world, and I go to the Father. [29] His disciples say to him: Behold, now thou speakest plainly, and speakest no proverb. [30] Now we know that thou knowest all things, and thou needest not that any man should ask thee. By this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
There is nothing in these verses that forbids subordinate mediatorship.
That is not what those verses are for.
And what does the Lord Jesus Christ perpetually offer to the Father on our behalf? Symbols? http://scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#eucharist-IIe
If you ever went to a Catholic Mass, you might be shocked to see that 99% of it is "directly to God".
Intercession of the Saints was not started by Constantine, and not a Catholic invention. It came to us in kernel form from the Jews. Luther and Calvin, whom you follow, were anti-Semites and it shows in their theology.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints, then so can we, who are called to imitate Jesus in word and in deed. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
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…but I want to preface this by saying my response here centers around the topic of the beautific vision of heaven given to us in writings such as Hebrews 11 and 12, and Revelations. This new covenant vision, given to us by Jesus and the Apostles, describes a vision of heaven quite unlike the Old Covenant where physical death brought one to the land of the dead. Hebrews shows a City for the faithfully departed, where we are all mystically united to the Body of Christ and the occupants sit as a “cloud of witnesses” to those of us here on earth…and 1 Cor. 12 tells us, you can not divide that body!