Mary mother of God

[chlotilde]

Exactly! God commanded Moses, but did He command rcc to make idols? NO! .

I would hope here that you spend more time reflecting on what God is doing, rather than what the Church is doing?
WHAT and even more important WHY did God command Moses to do that? Do you really think he is so wishy washy in his commandments that he would tell Moses to go against them? I don't.

 

[kepha31]

,

Same argument gets the same answer. God did not command rcc to make idols.

What a way to justify idolatries. You would search the whole bible just to find verses that could justify your doctrines. When you kneel in front of a statue and talk to that statue, you are literally speaking and worshiping a mute idol, eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear, lips that cannot speak, feet that cannot walk, hands that cannot touch. IOW, you are talking to a piece of dead wood.

Isa 44:19 The person who made the idol never stops to reflect, “Why, it’s just a block of wood! I burned half of it for heat and used it to bake my bread and roast my meat. How can the rest of it be a god? Should I bow down to worship a chunk of wood?”

Isa 44:20 The poor, deluded fool feeds on ashes. He is trusting something that can give him no help at all. Yet he cannot bring himself to ask, “Is this thing, this idol that I’m holding in my hand, a lie?”

yes, you are an anti-Catholic. Your argument is common from paranoid fundamentalists who hate the Church (with a feigned smile) Repeating yourself will not justify the insane iconoclasm invented by John Calvin. Posture has been explained, you ignore it. You refuse to see the difference between an idol that is worshipped and acceptable religious statuary. Examples have been given where God commands the proper use of them, you dismiss all of them. The Catholic Church condemns idolatry, and Catholics do not worship statues as if they were idols, you jump to that conclusion based on shallow misperceptions. Why?
Your opinion of a few verses, as you have claimed to "discover", is greater than that of the Church. You have, in a sense, deified your opinion which is the worst form of idolatry. The Bible warns against self-interpretation outside the Church, I would give you the verses but that won't make any difference to you.

People don't leave the Church for theological reasons; if that were true, then why are so many Protestant ministers ans scholars converting?
People don't leave the Church because of something they found in the Bible, they leave because they have been convinced of someone elses opinions of the Bible, such as John Calvin's psychotic iconoclasm.
Most people leave because the strict rules on marriage and annulment requirements make them uncomfortable so they quit and join a Protestant church where its easier.
Many leave any church when they go college or university where most professors are atheists.

And some leave the Church because deep down, they are angry at their parents for being less than perfect, and join some man-made bible cult to meet their social needs. Ranting about idolatry that isn't there is probably a guilt reaction for turning your back on Jesus in the Eucharist.

I have better things to do than to continue talking to a wall, I'm putting you on ignore. Only God can heal a blind man.
.
.

 

[JM2C]

hey, you're the one the brought up Jesus needing a mediator (I would never think such a thing).

I did not say that. The man Christ Jesus is the ONLY mediator between God and men.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

You ever wonder what the difference between a mediator and an intercessor are? It is just a matter of degrees up a ladder. Jesus is at the top.

You need a Mediator first before someone could make intercession for you. IOW, if no mediator then there is no intercessor between God and you.

Now, you need to understand this; the scriptures testified that the Lord Jesus Christ did both, i.e., the mediating and the interceding between God and men.

First, “the man Christ Jesus -1 Ti 2:5, i.e., in the flesh –John 1:14, died on the cross, i.e., MEDIATING, so that you could have peace with God –Romans 5:1 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”.

Second, after the “Mediating” between God and men, by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, men have “PEACE” with God, and interceding began. “Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. –Romans 8:34”

IOW, without the “mediating” of “the man Christ Jesus”, between God and men, there will be no “PEACE”. If there is no “PEACE” between God and men, through the mediating of “the man Christ Jesus”, then, there is no intercessor.

HEB 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
HEB 10:20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

Through the “mediating” of the “man Christ Jesus”, i.e., “His flesh”, by faith alone and not by works, men have “Peace” with God, and with this “PEACE”, men can “enter the Holy Place”, i.e., “through the veil” where God is.

IOW, without the Mediating of the Lord Jesus Christ one cannot see God.

 

[JM2C]

And there is no requirement by the Catholic Church for anyone to have a statue, a relic, a cross, a picture, a rosary, a scapular, etc.

So what's your point?

Sometimes people asked, was it really from the genes, from our parents, we inherited some of the traits of who we are, or was it from the environment? Environments required no traits from the genes to follow its way of life, but it does influence the behavior to pass it on to the next generations. So, if you’re saying “there is no requirement by the rcc for anyone to have a statue….”, but if it’s in your thinking already, that you inherited from your parents, then, it must be a requirement, required by this inherited environment, to have those idols.

The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed- Steve Biko.

JN 3:6 “ That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Or one must be “born again”.

 

[JM2C]

You better read some of Luther's stuff regarding the Jews. He was a really big anti-Semite. BTW, you may also want to read his writings on Mary as you would be more than shocked. I believe from my past readings that his tomb is under or near, uh oh, a statue of Mary being crowned Queen of Heaven.

Are you talking about the Luther before or after? They said the same thing to Erasmus.

 

[JM2C]

I would hope here that you spend more time reflecting on what God is doing, rather than what the Church is doing?

The OP asked, “Mary mother of God”. Base on the bible? That is blasphemy. So, if you are here, in this thread, then, you chose to be here because you want to defend it.

WHAT and even more important WHY did God command Moses to do that?

Because He is God?

Do you really think he is so wishy washy in his commandments that he would tell Moses to go against them? I don't.

Against the church/rcc? I value your opinion, but we are not debating about something that we don’t have any basis for referencing our arguments or debate from, but we do, and that is the bible.

We could trade opinions all day long but at the end of the day we gonna be back to where we started from. IOW, it’s useless.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry to interupt. What you had was not a relationship with Christ. Many catholics do have a relationship with Christ. The prayers to Mary and as you say statues are not part of a relationahip with Christ. So, Id say it wasnt Catholicism. Catholics dont teach idolotry. If you placed in the church, then yes its empty. If you placed it in the Church, you placed it in Christ. Not the pope, not Mary.

I find it diffficult to understand why many ex catholics cannot tell the difference between having a relationship with Christ through the Church and having a relationship with Christ as if the Church is Him. Misplaced devotion.

I dont know. I dont practice catholicism, but i do see a difference in idol worship and relationahip with christ no matter if its baptist church or catholic.

--

I think what im saying is it sounds like you had a misplaced devotion. It doesnt make catholicsm a pratice of idolism, just means it may be hard to find your relationship with christ inside structured worship.

I was a catholic until I read the bible and found out that all I was doing my entire life was committing idolatry. I prayed the rosary almost every day in front of Mary’s statues. Statues, as in multiple statues of Mary, and some of the saints’ made of wood and stones or plastics.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Misplaced devotion can always make someone bias against the faiths they fell from. That doesnt make the ex faiths wrong, it just wasnt an even fit.

 

[JM2C]

,yes, you are an anti-Catholic. Your argument is common from paranoid fundamentalists who hate the Church (with a feigned smile) Repeating yourself will not justify the insane iconoclasm invented by John Calvin. Posture has been explained, you ignore it. You refuse to see the difference between an idol that is worshipped and acceptable religious statuary.

Examples have been given where God commands the proper use of them, you dismiss all of them.

The Catholic Church condemns idolatry, and Catholics do not worship statues as if they were idols, you jump to that conclusion based on shallow misperceptions. Why?

Do you kneel in front of any statues at all? Yes or NO

Your opinion of a few verses, as you have claimed to "discover", is greater than that of the Church. You have, in a sense, deified your opinion which is the worst form of idolatry.

The Bible warns against self-interpretation outside the Church, I would give you the verses but that won't make any difference to you.

“self-interpretation outside the Church”. Where did it say in the bible? Or, whose opinion is it?

People don't leave the Church for theological reasons; if that were true, then why are so many Protestant ministers ans scholars converting?
People don't leave the Church because of something they found in the Bible, they leave because they have been convinced of someone elses opinions of the Bible, such as John Calvin's psychotic iconoclasm.

People left the rcc because they saw the truth in the bible and theologically that is the only reason.

Most people leave because the strict rules on marriage and annulment requirements make them uncomfortable so they quit and join a Protestant church where its easier.

How do you explain this verse?
Mt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.

Many leave any church when they go college or university where most professors are atheists.

A law professor does not teach atheism.

And some leave the Church because deep down, they are angry at their parents for being less than perfect, and join some man-made bible cult to meet their social needs. Ranting about idolatry that isn't there is probably a guilt reaction for turning your back on Jesus in the Eucharist.

I have better things to do than to continue talking to a wall, I'm putting you on ignore. Only God can heal a blind man.


.

left the rcc because they are angry at their parents?

 

[JM2C]

Misplaced devotion can always make someone bias against the faiths they fell from. That doesnt make the ex faiths wrong, it just wasnt an even fit.

1Co 7:35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

1Co 7:35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

I dont know the relation unless you add commentary with scripture
--
Misplaced devotion meaning your devotion may not have been on Christ while in the Church. Instead, they have a devotion to Mary. Statues, if you like, and so forth. Bypassing who the devotion should be in christian terms dedicated to.

It sounds like if your devotion was on Christ in the Church youd see no division between one christian and another. Since I see you do, Catholicm was a mis fit for you because not everyone can follow Christ in congregational rather than individual worship.

Preference in worship not divison.
--
My personal opinion: By going away from the Church, you have divided yourself from like believers. Its one thing to have preference in worship. Thats not division, just preference. Its another to say your ex faith is against scripture. That is division between other christians in the church, like yourself, who have a relationship with Christ and Christ only.

---
I guess what Im trying to say is, how could you have been Catholic if you were not devoted to Christ and Christ only?

 

[Wharton]

Are you talking about the Luther before or after? They said the same thing to Erasmus.

Regarding the Jews, Martin Luther = Adolf Hitler

 

[Wharton]

QUOTE="JM2C, post: 4235000, member: 53604"]Sometimes people asked, was it really from the genes, from our parents, we inherited some of the traits of who we are, or was it from the environment? Environments required no traits from the genes to follow its way of life, but it does influence the behavior to pass it on to the next generations. So, if you’re saying “there is no requirement by the rcc for anyone to have a statue….”, but if it’s in your thinking already, that you inherited from your parents, then, it must be a requirement, required by this inherited environment, to have those idols.

The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed- Steve Biko.
JN 3:6 “ That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Or one must be “born again”.[/QUOTE]


Understand that the Catholic Church is universal. It offers many methods to bring people to Jesus Christ. Whatever you belong to, doesn't. It appeals to people of your same thinking. Protestantism delights in dividing the body of Christ. That's why there are 30,000+ Protestant denominations. Anyone who can afford air time or who can lease a storefront becomes a 'church' appealing to a select few.

Now as far as your idol problem with the Church, statues have been around for along time along with stained glass windows. For people who could not read, they explained the faith/biblical history. There were even picture bibles way back when for people who could not read. Were they idols?

If you're of an eastern Asiatic religion and you need a mother figure to come to Jesus, there's Mary. Mary always points you to her son, Jesus. Her only words in the bible are; "Do whatever he (Jesus) tells you." If you need a mantra, there's the rosary BUT you're supposed to be meditating on the mysteries (Events in the life of Jesus) not just mindlessly saying Hail Mary's, Our Father's and Glory Be's.

Intercessory prayers of the saints. Yes, the Communion of Saints does exist and they are a powerful prayer resource as they are in the immediate presence of God. But what other function could they serve? Think of eastern religions that practice ancestor worship. The many saints are a resource to be used as they always point people to Jesus as that's who they served in life.

Unfortunately for you, you never really knew what Catholicism was about and what it had to offer. You were advanced in your faith and did not need the statues, rosary, stained glass windows, etc to bring you to Jesus Christ. However, there are people that are not as advanced as you on their faith journey and they may need such resources to eventually bring them to Jesus Christ. It's not fair to deny them such resources. Once they are comfortable in the level of their faith journey, they maybe able to lose the 'milk" and to be able to handle the 'meat' without such resources.

 

[kepha31]

There is, in the Catholic vision of reality, a profound understanding of the impenetration of matter by grace which we call the Incarnational principle. The Incarnation of God the Son as Jesus Christ is the bedrock which underlies the Christian vision of the relationship between God and man. In assuming a human nature, God demonstrates at once that creation, including human nature, is not only good but is capable of being further elevated through the impenetration of the Divine life.

This is the basis of the entire sacramental system, which uses outward (material) signs to transmit to us a share of God’s life, from the initiation of the believer’s journey in Baptism to its conclusion in Anointing of the Sick. It is the basis of the Church, a visible society which itself serves as a living connection between God and man, a sort of meta-sacrament for the transmission and embodiment of grace. It is even the basis for all of society, which begins with a proper understanding of matrimony, which St. Paul tells us is a model for the relationship of Christ and the Church. For in matrimony a man and a woman join in a profound sanctifying union of both body and spirit, a union which is both faithful and fecund, generating new life.

This understanding of the goodness of creation, of matter, of humanity and of human joys and aspirations—and the lesson that this goodness is designed to be further filled, animated and elevated by the love of God—is so central to God’s plan that Christianity begins and ends with it. It begins with God’s self-emptying of glory as He takes on human flesh and it ends in the Resurrection of the glorified Christ, who henceforth forever retains His identity as man.

It ought to be obvious to just about everybody that no other religion incorporates this particular (and particularly profound) understanding of the relationship of nature to nature’s God. Every human philosophy inevitably makes too much of nature or too little, and sometimes both at once, as in modern secularism which sees nature as all and so ignores that to which it points. What may be surprising, however, is that even among Christians those who have doctrinally fallen away from Rome have largely lost the unique and special wholeness of this Christian vision. Thus, from its beginning, Protestantism has been preoccupied with what it regards as the depravity of human nature, its radical incapacity for goodness, its reliance on grace as on something which supplants man’s nature rather than penetrates it.

Here we find the cause of Protestantism’s inability to understand the importance of works to salvation, which led Luther to revise Scripture and declare the letter of St. James to be apocryphal. Here also we have the root of Calvin’s notion that some are predestined for heaven and others for hell by nothing but the arbitrary will of God. Nor are we surprised to find Protestant sects which have outlawed the celebration of Christmas itself, distrusting the human values and human joy which Christmas both represents and fulfills. Indeed, from the point of view of nature, Protestantism must be described as a very thin, a very incomplete religion.

By contrast, Catholicism flowers in nature, transforming and elevating not only man himself but man’s culture. The astonishing achievements of Catholic culture over two millennia—in art and literature, sculpture and architecture, education and government, work and play, fast and feast—are one and all rooted in the Incarnational principle. The sense that the human body is itself a repository of grace, a temple of the Holy Spirit, fosters a unique Catholic mode of being in which the mind and spirit are never alone, never cut off. Rather man worships God in his body, and carries all of nature beyond itself in the quest to fulfill the very end of religion, which is for all creation to give glory to God.

Not in the abstract, then, is Catholic salvation worked out, but in the concrete; not in the general, but in the particular. The Catholic vision is not one of being “attached” to Christ, but of “putting on” Christ (Gal 3:27), not one of merely receiving an external gift, but of living the Christ life deep within—so that I live, no not I, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20). Each virtue is cultivated, each habit transformed and elevated, each relationship purified, each work ennobled. And the power for this continuous transformation is nourished—no, actually ingested—and formed into community through the Eucharist, the Word quite literally made Flesh, the Body and Blood really and actually present, not in figure or even in grace alone, but in its very substance.

Every Catholic is called to a life-long process of incorporating (I choose the word advisedly) his whole self, body and soul, into Christ, and not only his self but his loves, his labors, his own small creations, and the entire world over which he has been given dominion. This project, in which no detail is neglected or flattened, and no element lost or discarded, is unique to Catholicism. As I have said, it is a project rooted in the Incarnational principle. But even the Incarnational principle is not so much explained as demonstrated, not so much taught as lived. It was lived first by Christ Himself, born of Mary and protected by Joseph, in Bethlehem, in a stable, in a manger—and so at length in us.
by Jeffry Mirus Ph.D.
Why Be Catholic? 8: Incarnation - Catholic Culture

 

[JM2C]

The Bible warns against self-interpretation outside the Church,

William Tyndale. William Tyndale, the next great figure in the history of the English Bible, was born about the year 1494 and studied at Oxford and Cambridge. Soon after leaving Cambridge, while working as a chaplain and tutor, he said in a controversy with a clergyman, "If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy that driveth a plough to know more of the Scripture than thou dost." The bishop of London refused to help fund his translation, but a wealthy London cloth merchant finally came to his support; after six months, in 1524, Tyndale left for the Continent after he encountered opposition. He was never able to return to England. He seems to have visited Luther at Wittenberg, and then went to Cologne, where he found a printer for his NT. A priest discovered his plan, and Tyndale was obliged to flee. In Worms he found another printer, and there, in 1525, 3,000 copies of the first printed English NT were published. By 1530 six editions, numbering about 15,000 copies, were published. They were all smuggled into England--hidden in bales of cotton, sacks of flour, and bundles of flax.

As soon as Tyndale's NT reached England, there was a great demand for it: by the laity that they might read it, and by the ecclesiastical authorities, that they might destroy it! A decree was issued for its destruction. Bishops bought up whole editions to consign to the flames. As a result, only a few imperfect copies survive. Tyndale's English NT was translated from the original Greek, the text published by Erasmus. So well did Tyndale do his work that the KJV reproduces about 90 percent of Tyndale in the NT. He never finished translating the OT from the Hebrew text; he was betrayed in Antwerp by an English Roman Catholic and was condemned to death for being a heretic. He was strangled and his body burned at the stake. His last words were a prayer, "Lord, open the King of England's eyes." Although his NT was burned in large quantities by the church, it greatly increased an appetite for the Bible in English, an appetite the government began to see the wisdom and necessity of satisfying. –A A

 

[JM2C]

Now as far as your idol problem with the Church, statues have been around for along time along with stained glass windows. For people who could not read, they explained the faith/biblical history. There were even picture bibles way back when for people who could not read. Were they idols?

Idol problem? Not anymore. Cannot or could not read the bible is not an excuse for people like you to make and worship idols. Isaiah was right when he said, “Yet he cannot bring himself to ask, “Is this thing, this idol that I’m holding in my hand, a lie?” Now that’s a problem or denial perhaps.

Isa 44:20 The poor, deluded fool feeds on ashes. He is trusting something that can give him no help at all. Yet he cannot bring himself to ask, “Is this thing, this idol that I’m holding in my hand, a lie?”

 

[JM2C]

Understand that the Catholic Church is universal. It offers many methods to bring people to Jesus Christ. Whatever you belong to, doesn't. It appeals to people of your same thinking. Protestantism delights in dividing the body of Christ. That's why there are 30,000+ Protestant denominations. Anyone who can afford air time or who can lease a storefront becomes a 'church' appealing to a select few.

The true Christians were the true followers of Christ during the apostle’s writings and those who followed or adhere to these writings today.

You think that Christianity started only after the bible was canonized but what you did not understand is it was the beginning of pluralism by Constantine, i.e., mixing Christianity with paganism. That’s probably the reason why people are so confused today about the true identity of Christianity. If one says s/he is a Christian but bow down or kneel or worship other things/idols other than God, then one might think all Christians are like this. A true Christian should only follow Christ.

 

[JM2C]

If you're of an eastern Asiatic religion and you need a mother figure to come to Jesus, there's Mary. Mary always points you to her son, Jesus. Her only words in the bible are; "Do whatever he (Jesus) tells you." If you need a mantra, there's the rosary BUT you're supposed to be meditating on the mysteries (Events in the life of Jesus) not just mindlessly saying Hail Mary's, Our Father's and Glory Be's.

JN 2:5 His mother *said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

The Lord Jesus Christ instructed His disciples on how to pray.

MT 6:9 “ Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name”

He did not say, “holy Mary mother of God” X50 nor “hail Mary full of grace” X50.

 

[JM2C]

Intercessory prayers of the saints. Yes, the Communion of Saints does exist and they are a powerful prayer resource as they are in the immediate presence of God. But what other function could they serve? Think of eastern religions that practice ancestor worship. The many saints are a resource to be used as they always point people to Jesus as that's who they served in life.

Unbiblical! The bible cannot support your theory.

Unfortunately for you, you never really knew what Catholicism was about and what it had to offer. You were advanced in your faith and did not need the statues, rosary, stained glass windows, etc to bring you to Jesus Christ. However, there are people that are not as advanced as you on their faith journey and they may need such resources to eventually bring them to Jesus Christ. It's not fair to deny them such resources. Once they are comfortable in the level of their faith journey, they maybe able to lose the 'milk" and to be able to handle the 'meat' without such resources.

From idols to non-idols is what called advancement in Christianity. I can’t blame you if you can’t separate the truth from a lie.

2Th 2:11 So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies.
2Th 2:12 Then they will be condemned for not believing the truth and for enjoying the evil they do.

 

[JM2C]

I dont know the relation unless you add commentary with scripture

Here you have multiple choices divided into three cat “Catholic by vows; Buddhist by faith; and a Pagan by practice” Compare that to “undivided devotion to the Lord. 1Co 7:35”