Mary mother of God

[Unveiled Artist]

That means you cannot represent Christ as a Christian. Christ language was not verbatum from scriptures. His opinions reflected that of His Father. Likewise yours of Christ.

See the pattern?

Very subjective indeed. Only in the mind of the beholder. Another example of circumventing the scriptures..

We should base our debates on the scriptures alone and not from speculations or opinions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

See the difference?


There is a difference between this:

Bowing to the frame in worship. "Oh frame. I love you so much. I worship you"

And this

"Mother (your bio mother), 'closing your eyes' thank you for taking care of me. Hope youre with Jesus in heaven." Now open your eyes and shift to face the wall, say the same prayer.

It makes no difference what you face because you are Not praying to the frame you are praying to God for your loved one who hopefully is in heaven. What you face (or kiss, bow, jump rope) should have NOTHING to do with your worship. You face the frame because you are reflecting on your mothers picture. You are not worshiping her in that picture. And hopefully, you are not worshiping the frame or your mother after she passed.

This is the same in Catholicism. To say a Catholic prays TO statues is ludicrous. I would never accuse you of praying to a frame because you are honoring your mother by the picture of her

And

Can you explain in the minds of Catholics whether their veneration to Mary is the same they give to Christ without going by outside appearances?

Also, can you show me in the Church's teachings and in their Bible where it says a Catholic can worship Mary as they do Christ?

I dont know the minds of all Catholics.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The analogy of the Creator and His creation is; if one could admire the Creator why one cannot admire His creation, or admiring His creation is just like admiring the Creator.

You just gone right into paganism. No catholic (or I should say the Church doesnt teach) to see creation the same as the Creator. Christians dont see that. Whered you get that from?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If Mary was alive, Catholics would not worship her. She is NOT Christ. The Church doesnt teach she is Christ. Their Bible doesnt teach she is Christ.

The catecism has a whole chapter with scripture explictly devoted to the commandment against idol worship.

Bowing is not worship. If that be the case, my bowing to my Japenese elder and neighbor would make him an idol.

That is silly. And he is a person. Its more sillier when you apply it to blocks of stone.

Exactly the point of what God was saying in Exodus 20:3-5. Do not make idol. Do not bow down to idols.

Obviously, God was focusing on why they were bowing not the bowing itself.

Example, tower of babel. If they built a tower without the goal of finding God, it would nothing more than building a roof over a house.

Since they did with INTENT to find God, that is why God got mad and mixed their language.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Another question for you. When does a block of stone become an idol? Does it magically turn into one or is it based on the motive of the person using the stone to make it an idol?

Bow infront of your tv, and pray "I love you God". If you feel "you" are praying to the tv, than I cant help you. Thats idol worshiping.

If you are praying to God, it doesnt matter what you face.

 

[chlotilde]

Why would God share with other/different/heteros gods/idols?

by making idols? 1st 4 commandments are about God and the next 6 commandments are about us or IOW, Love God and love your neighbor.

You’re not only all the way out on left field, but actually out of the park with your analogies. You should read the bible.

If you are the only God around, you know there is no one else out there to be jealous of...please don't treat God like an idiot.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You must be talking about Catholics. Here is what the Church teaches about worshiping God only and idolism:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7C.HTM

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7C.HTM

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7D.HTM

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7E.HTM

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7F.HTM

The Church teachings are from Christ. All the verses you posted are in their Bible.

I cant speak for all Catholics, but the majority worship Christ and Christ only.

If you disregard the Church teachings, how can you develop a debate against their teachings?

You must know both sides from an experiencial and objective knowledge point of view.

You must ALSO repect other people because only Christ knows who they worship.

Not you. Not me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Likewise with Catholics. They are christian too. Why disrespect how they worship Christ when faith doesnt come alone, you must DO something because of your faith. What do you do because of your faith in Christ? How does telling Catholics they are worshiping some thing they and Christ know they arent make Christ happy? How do you define yourself as a Christian by faith IF your actions doesnt reflect it?

”Bare minimum requirements” to become a Christian? I have good news for you and it does not require anything but faith alone.

RO 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
RO 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Mary isnt JUST and imstrument. Without her, how could Christ be born? She has an importan role in your salvation.. All followers of Christ....apostles....had a role in your salvation. Without them, no bible, no bible, no knowledge of Christ. Christianity is a congregational faith not individual.

False! Nothing came from us that were not given to us by God. Please do not give Mary any credit that is due to God alone.

Mary was just an instrument of the power of God, [read Jeremiah 18, the Potter and the clay] like all the prophets, the apostles, the preachers, evangelist, teachers and all those who serve God.

RO 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”

Phil 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

All glory to God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Okay. I wanted to put all my posts into one but I was on my smart phone. This will not be short; but, it will be easier to follow and find points to critic or learn from if you like.

1. The importance of Mary.
2. Mary as the mediator?

Fast forward

3. Praying to statues?

4. Personal opinions and scripture

5. Final Words

I will say Christians, not Catholics, because
Romans 10:8-13 - But what does it say? “The word is - Bible Gateway

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.​

To tell any Christian they are not a part of Christ because of how they worship Him without knowing their personal relationship with Christ is wrong. Please do not assume they are not Christian for following teachings you personally interpret as incorrect.

1. The Importance of Mary.

Actually, this is easy. Take Mary out of the picture, who would the angel of the Lord go to tell Mary she will give birth to your savior.

Luke 1:26-38 - The Birth of Jesus Foretold - In the - Bible Gateway

Q: Why do some Christians not honor Mary as her right is due?

Q: Why is she considered just an "instrument" of God's will?

Q: What has she done to deserve such a low appreciation from the Mother of her follower, Jesus Himself?

Note: In many cultures, family is extremely important. Christianity is a cultured faith. You cannot take it a part from its Roman and Jewish roots. You cannot extract the message of Christ from the context--His family, His disciples, His life, His Own Father--from scripture and say you follow the Son of Man and the Son of God.​

Also, if you believe in the trinity, here is why Mary is the Mother of God.

Mother of God? Christ is God, right? There is no separation between his flesh and his spirit because his flesh is perfect, right? When he is resurrected, His body goes with His spirit, right? Since that is the case, his flesh does not separate Him from coming from a human woman. Thereby, Mary is the Mother of God.

2. Mary as the mediator?

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,..." (1 Tim. 2:5)

No where in Catholic doctrine does it say Mary replaces Jesus Christ as mediator. No where does it say she has the same exact purpose as Christ as a mediator. She is not THE Mediator between Christ and you.

Q: If you can find Catholic doctrine that shows where Mary replaces Christ as THE medatior with the same role as Christ, please do.

3. Praying to Statutes?

And it says here: (In bold)

CHAPTER ONE

"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND"

ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3 It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4

2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in the image and likeness of God":
There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.7
2086 "The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say 'God' we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: 'I am the LORD.'"8

The ONLY thing in Mass Catholics worship isthe Eucharist. Jesus Christ. When you add statues, it just makes me laugh in comparison to their worship to Christ

I won't repost all the scripture you've posted since they are in the Catholic Bible as well.

Q: When you kneeled to the t.v. and said "I love you God" and bowed in front of the wall and said "I love you God" were you talking to the tv or the wall or to God?

Q: Step further. Say you from Japanese culture. When you bowed in front of your mother (biological) picture did you bow to the frame, ink, and paper? If so, you went against scripture. Or did you bow out of respect to your mother who is not in the picture but in your heart and in your mind?

4.Personal opinions and scripture

Jesus did not quote scripture verbatim. When He said "this is not my words but they are from my Father who sent me (John 12:49), that was His opinion. That was His belief. That was His True to which You follow. Your opinions should reflect what you know from Christ. If you need scripture to make you up, fine.

The problem with scripture is that we all see it in our own eyes. If u tell us what you see in it or how God is speaks to you through scripture, we will know the context of what you're saying without (hopefully) bias through our interpreters. (We see what we want to see because you haven't told us what you want us to see.)


FINAL WORDS

Q: Can you explain in the minds of Catholics whether their veneration to Mary is the same they give to Christ without going by outside appearances?

Q: Also, can you show me in the Church's teachings and in their Bible where it says a Catholic can worship Mary as they do Christ?

You can fish around the posts I make. I will never understand how you do not know the difference between worship, respect, and veneration. Regardless if it is to a human, a dog, a block of wood, or a p pencil.

I had extra time on my hands. If you read this, great.

My point: Do you understand where I am coming from?

 

[JM2C]

Okay. I wanted to put all my posts into one but I was on my smart phone. This will not be short; but, it will be easier to follow and find points to critic or learn from if you like.

1. The importance of Mary.

2. Mary as the mediator?

Fast forward

3. Praying to statues?

4. Personal opinions and scripture

5. Final Words


I will say Christians, not Catholics, because

Romans 10:8-13 - But what does it say? “The word is - Bible Gateway


12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.


To tell any Christian they are not a part of Christ because ofhowthey worship Him without knowing theirpersonalrelationship with Christ is wrong. Please do not assume they are not Christian for following teachings you personally interpret as incorrect.

1. The Importance of Mary.

2.Mary as the mediator?

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,..." (1 Tim. 2:5)

No where in Catholic doctrine does it say MaryreplacesJesus Christ as mediator. No where does it say she has thesame exact purpose as Christas a mediator. She is notTHEMediator between Christ and you.


Q:If you can find Catholic doctrine that shows where Mary replaces Christ as THE medatior with the same role as Christ, please do.

3.Praying to Statutes?

And it says here: (In bold)

TheONLYthing in Mass Catholics worship isthe Eucharist. Jesus Christ. When you add statues, it just makes me laugh in comparison to their worship to Christ


I won't repost all the scripture you've posted since they are in the Catholic Bible as well.


Q:When you kneeled to the t.v. and said "I love you God" and bowed in front of the wall and said "I love you God" were you talking to the tv or the wall or to God?


Q:Step further. Say you from Japanese culture. When you bowed in front of your mother (biological) picture did you bow to the frame, ink, and paper? If so, you went against scripture. Or did you bow out of respect to yourmotherwho is not in the picture but in your heart and in your mind?


4.Personal opinions and scripture


Jesus did not quote scripture verbatim. When He said "this is not my words but they are from my Father who sent me (John 12:49), that was His opinion. That was His belief. That was His True to which You follow. Your opinions should reflect what you know from Christ. If you need scripture to make you up, fine.

The problem with scripture is that we all see it in our own eyes. If u tell us whatyousee in it or how God is speaks to you through scripture, we will know thecontextof what you're saying without (hopefully) bias through our interpreters.(We see what we want to see because you haven't told us what you want us to see.)

FINAL WORDS

Q:Can you explain in the minds of Catholics whether their veneration to Mary is the same they give to Christ without going by outside appearances?

Q:Also, can you show me in the Church's teachings and in their Bible where it says a Catholic can worship Mary as they do Christ?

You can fish around the posts I make. I will never understand how you do not know the difference between worship, respect, and veneration. Regardless if it is to a human, a dog, a block of wood, or a p pencil.

I had extra time on my hands. If you read this, great.

My point:Do you understand where I am coming from?

When you bend your knee or kneel in front of any statue, be it Mary’s or any saints’, you are literally worshiping or praying or asking them for something to ask God. Do you understand that?

These statues made of dead woods, stones or pictures or anything your eyes can see are nothing but idols.

They are not omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent like God.

Just imagine if a billion people are praying to Mary and the saints right at this minute, do you think they are that powerful that they could hear all these prayers? NO, because they are not God.

You need to understand this. If you want something from God, you ask Him directly. “Our Father in heaven” and not “hail Mary” x50 and “holy Mary” x50.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Can you, though, know a persons conviction of who they worship by bowing to a statue or holding beads?

If you bow in front of a tv and said "God, I love you." Who are you worshiping, the tv or God?

If you say the tv, Id be confused because you said you loved God not the tv. Your bowing has nothing to do with who you worship "if that person intentionally bows to a block of stone."

If I were in Japanese culture and my neighbor who is an elder and japanese came to me, I will bow back. He is not Jesus. He is not God. That is "respect" for the person. Likewise with the statue, the statue is not God, nor Jesus, both. The Father and Son are in that christians heart. So it "does not matter" who or ahat they bow in frontof, they are bowing to Christ. "That is worship."

Try closing your eyes and not face anything. Bow. If you are not accustomed to bowing as a form of respect than I dont think you will understand. On the other hand, when you bowed with your eyes closed (rather than puting your hands together in prayer, same concept) you bowed to Christ. Where was your heart when you bowed with your eyes closed?

People get thrown off by silly things such as blocks of stone and gold. In the bible people "worshiped these 'items'". They replaced God with items. No Catholic doctrine says that.

I cannot apeak for all catholics. I can say the Church does not teach worshiping statues. When I practiced and prayed to God in front of the statue, I didnt mistake the stone for God. Thats silly.

The ONLY thing Catholics worship is the Eucharist. Thats explicidly in their doctrine. Its emphasised as the core of Mass. We dont have statues replacing the Eucharist. The whole general argument is misplaced and silly.

When you bend your knee or kneel in front of any statue, be it Mary’s or any saints’, you are literally worshiping or praying or asking them for something to ask God. Do you understand that?

These statues made of dead woods, stones or pictures or anything your eyes can see are nothing but idols.

They are not omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent like God.

Just imagine if a billion people are praying to Mary and the saints right at this minute, do you think they are that powerful that they could hear all these prayers? NO, because they are not God.

You need to understand this. If you want something from God, you ask Him directly. “Our Father in heaven” and not “hail Mary” x50 and “holy Mary” x50.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Also, is the stone an idol in itself? What magical power does the stone itself have to make it an idol?

Edit.

Praying to the saints are a whole different animal. One, because they are not blocks, ans thus, two, they are spirits and according to scripture, all people who die in Gods favor go to him in heaven. He wouldnt say "hey Mary, I just want to use you. I know my angel intrusted you to carry my son, but even though you are blessed by me, youll spend an eternity in hell." If you believe otherwise, wed have to disagree.

--
Blocks of stone is silly.

 

[JM2C]

Also, is the stone an idol in itself? What magical power does the stone itself have to make it an idol?

If you bow down or kneel if front of them and ask a favor or ask them to ask God then that is idolatry.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you bow down or kneel if front of them and ask a favor or ask them to ask God then that is idolatry.

you are not asking block of stone for a favor. That is silly.

I see the problem. Youre relating bowing to stone to praying to saints.

Bowing is not worship.
Praying to someone is not worship.
Praying for someone is not worship.

These are actions independent of worship.

I can bow to my neighbor, that is not worship.

I can pray to my grandmothers spirits, that is not worship.

I can pray for my mothers health, that is not worship.

What is considered worship?

If I use these actions to place my neighbor, my grandmothers spirits, and my mother OVER anyone else. (In scripture OVER God). If I used bowing, praying to, and praying for these people in REPLACE of God, thats worship.

The actions are not idol worship unless what you are doing places God below your respect or veneration of these people, or you uzed these actions to replace worshipnto God.

 

[JM2C]

you are not asking block of stone for a favor. That is silly.

I see the problem. Youre relating bowing to stone to praying to saints.

Bowing is not worship.
Praying to someone is not worship.
Praying for someone is not worship.

These are actions independent of worship.

I can bow to my neighbor, that is not worship.

I can pray to my grandmothers spirits, that is not worship.

I can pray for my mothers health, that is not worship.

What is considered worship?

If I use these actions to place my neighbor, my grandmothers spirits, and my mother OVER anyone else. (In scripture OVER God). If I used bowing, praying to, and praying for these people in REPLACE of God, thats worship.

The actions are not idol worship unless what you are doing places God below your respect or veneration of these people, or you uzed these actions to replace worshipnto God.

Why do you kneel in front of them?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I cut this short. My point is best expressed in the next post.

For me, personally, I bowed to Jesus. I knew Jesus didnt have wavy hair as potrayed in some statues, but the actual physical nature of bowing, praying, and so forth was how I expressed my gratitude for Christ. So the statue is like my grandmothers pictures. I do t bow to the statue as if it is Jesus likewise I dont pray to photographs thinking they are my grandmothers. For some, its a sense of comfort to have physical objects and atmosphere when praying to God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why do you kneel in front of them?

Another thing I wanted to add. In some asian cultures, the length of the bow, the higher the respect. So, if you are an older to me, I may do a nod or short bow. If you are an elder to me, Id bow further. Both in respect. If Christ were here, Id bow half way. The highest respect=worship. I am placing a higher respect for Christ over you by "how" I bow not the bowing itself.

Likewise in Catholicism.

You have two forms of respect and the last worship. The first is signing the cross. We do this sometimes to Mary and to the saints. We do sometimes before we eat. The second is a quarter bow when walking into the santuary and before entering the pews. We do this only when Jesus is not present (the Eucharist is not shown) it is respect for the altar and sanctuary and to upcoming Mass, prayer, so forth.

These are acts of respect.

Then last is an act of worship. It is done ONLY to Christ (the Eucharist). We geneflex (or some countries half bow) and sign the cross. We do this when entering the santurary (when Christ is physically present), before entering the pew before and after Mass and when the candle is lit. We do this before recieving the Eucharist at communion too.

What I just described is an act of worship to Christ and Christ only.

I honeslty feel that if you personally go to a Catholic Church, kneel to God (say in front of a Jesus statue), and prayed TO GOD, you may feel uncomfortable. I am sure no matter what you face, you will always know WHO youre praying to

God and God only.

EDIT

Worship in christianity is when you revere God OVER anyone and anything. The act is showing your devotion to God and God only.

Idol worship is when you put a someone or something OVER God. Your actions show you are placing the person or thing over God.

Worshiping statues is puting the STATUE over God. You are intentionally using actions and words to devote yourself to a statue. It could be any statue; it does not have to be religious in nature. It could be a T-Rex from a Museum.

In Catholicism, the Church does not teach to put anything (statues included) over God. When a christian prays/acts in prayer to Mary, that is what she is doing. She is not praying to a block of stone.

Even more important, no Catholic puts saints OVER God. No Catholic REPLACES saints with God. The Church does not teach that. Whats silly is puting statues in the mix. No Catholic places stone over God or replace Him with it.

So by strict definition, because Catholics do not put saints and statues over God nor replace Him with them or it, it is not worship.

I forgot, another thing God dislikes is dual worship. Since God is above any person in Christianity, no Catholic puts anyone in the same category as God.

To say they do, youd literally have to know their personal relationship with Christ. I dont know their relationship. You dont either.

Why point fingers?

 

[JM2C]

Another thing I wanted to add. In some asian cultures, the length of the bow, the higher the respect. So, if you are an older to me, I may do a nod or short bow. If you are an elder to me, Id bow further. Both in respect. If Christ were here, Id bow half way. The highest respect=worship. I am placing a higher respect for Christ over you by "how" I bow not the bowing itself.

Likewise in Catholicism.

You have two forms of respect and the last worship. The first is signing the cross. We do this sometimes to Mary and to the saints. We do sometimes before we eat. The second is a quarter bow when walking into the santuary and before entering the pews. We do this only when Jesus is not present (the Eucharist is not shown) it is respect for the altar and sanctuary and to upcoming Mass, prayer, so forth.

These are acts of respect.

Then last is an act of worship. It is done ONLY to Christ (the Eucharist). We geneflex (or some countries half bow) and sign the cross. We do this when entering the santurary (when Christ is physically present), before entering the pew before and after Mass and when the candle is lit. We do this before recieving the Eucharist at communion too.

What I just described is an act of worship to Christ and Christ only.

I honeslty feel that if you personally go to a Catholic Church, kneel to God (say in front of a Jesus statue), and prayed TO GOD, you may feel uncomfortable. I am sure no matter what you face, you will always know WHO youre praying to

God and God only.

EDIT

Worship in christianity is when you revere God OVER anyone and anything. The act is showing your devotion to God and God only.

Idol worship is when you put a someone or something OVER God. Your actions show you are placing the person or thing over God.

Worshiping statues is puting the STATUE over God. You are intentionally using actions and words to devote yourself to a statue. It could be any statue; it does not have to be religious in nature. It could be a T-Rex from a Museum.

In Catholicism, the Church does not teach to put anything (statues included) over God. When a christian prays/acts in prayer to Mary, that is what she is doing. She is not praying to a block of stone.

Even more important, no Catholic puts saints OVER God. No Catholic REPLACES saints with God. The Church does not teach that. Whats silly is puting statues in the mix. No Catholic places stone over God or replace Him with it.

So by strict definition, because Catholics do not put saints and statues over God nor replace Him with them or it, it is not worship.

I forgot, another thing God dislikes is dual worship. Since God is above any person in Christianity, no Catholic puts anyone in the same category as God.

To say they do, youd literally have to know their personal relationship with Christ. I dont know their relationship. You dont either.

Why point fingers?

Well this depends on whether you are Catholic or Protestant.

According to the Roman Catholic Church, if you are not one of them you cannot get to god. Priests are your intermediary ... you are told to ask Mary to pray for you as well as sundry saints. In essence this means that you have several helpers you use to reach god. Therefore you cannot have a personal relationship with god.

Now according to Protestants, none of the above are necessary to have a relationship with god. You remove all these "helpers" who stand between you and god ... except Jesus ... & your relationship with god is a lot more personal.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

were you meaning to post here?