mary, virgin or not

[mohammed_beiruti]

ok, so why use dust

Allah knows better, I don't.

 

[payak]

Allah knows better, I don't.

thats the answer i have been waiting for, we just dont know

 

[blackout]

Virgin births are overrated.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

thats the answer i have been waiting for, we just dont know

I only know what Allah has revealed:"Adam was created from dust"
No human witnessed that, or do you think that somone witnessed that?

Qura'an Surat Al-kahf verse 51:
I called them not to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor (even) their own creation: nor is it for helpers such as Me to take as lead (men) astray

 

[payak]

i know now one is witness to what your prophets were thinking.
so we cannot be sure they were talking to god as we have only there word.
or were you there, in there heads to witness god speaking.

many people at my local train station believe they talk to god,

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

i know now one is witness to what your prophets were thinking.
so we cannot be sure they were talking to god as we have only there word.
or were you there, in there heads to witness god speaking.

many people at my local train station believe they talk to god,

Allah talk to humanity through messengers, to deliver a message to guide them to the straight way, to let them know who created them and what is the purpose of their creation.
Allah(SWT) is not a guy hanging out in neighborhood chating with people.

Islam is a great message for all humanity.

 

[payak]

is this the morality you speak of

The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

is this the morality you speak of

The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

open anew thread for this issue.

we get far away from the subject.

 

[cablescavenger]

Some say the kids were from Joseph's 1st marriage.

Good point. I never considered that possibility since it doesn't mention in the bible that Joseph had children either.

There is also some speculation that Jesus brother Judas is his twin.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The entire "birth of Jesus" story could simply be untrue from start to finish. Not lies, but a story.

I agree. That's why I added what I did about the two later gospels copying from each other and copying from Mark. Interesting that the book of Mark, the supposed earliest of all the gospels, totally omits the virgin birth narrative. Even Paul's letters, which are earlier than Mark, seem to not know anything about a virgin birth.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

the Sumerians were descendants of Noah's sons. They all tell the same story in a different ways. The hebrews came from Shem (hence Semites) and they maintained the story as it truthfully happened because they remained obedient to God....all the others added to the story and changed the characters because they had rebelled from God.

but you know, there is nothing new under the sun. There is only a retelling of the same story in a multitude of different ways.

Actually the Sumerians and the Egyptian culture predate the timeline given for the supposed biblical flood. There's no evidence to support the Sumerians were decedents from Noah's sons.

 

[Sgloom]

Allah do not need.

creation needs.

so dust was needed to create man? didnt god create dust as well? what did he create dust out of, nothing? i know some faiths beleive everything existed eternally and god simply creates from that, but if im not mistaken, i think christianity believes god created everything from nothing, so what im asking is why he needed dust if he can just create from nothing

 

[waitasec]

so dust was needed to create man? didnt god create dust as well? what did he create dust out of, nothing?

the universe came out of 'nothing'

Spoiler

BANG

 

[Prophet]

Back in a time where understanding of nature was very primitive, some theorized that things were made from one of four basic elements, those being earth, wind, fire, and water.

Why is it surprising that primitive creation stories has God fashioning man out of dust?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

we also need to consider the time and the level of ignorance this idea came from....

Eventhough there were many ignorant people at that time, and many supperstitious Ideas, this particular belief cannot be rejected on this basis. Even among ignorant people, such a thing could have happend. Though, I belive Mary was an angel, and not ignorant.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Eventhough there were many ignorant people at that time, and many supperstitious Ideas, this particular belief cannot be rejected on this basis. Even among ignorant people, such a thing could have happend. Though, I belive Mary was an angel, and not ignorant.

What's the basis for the assumption that Mary was an angel?

Do you mean angel as in heavenly being or angel as in innocent human?

 

[arcanum]

There is more then IMO...but of course we differ in here. See for example this:

Catholic Answers

True, ordinarily. But even in the Old Testament God asked married couples to refrain from intercourse for various reasons. For example, the priests of the temple had to refrain from intimacy with their wives during the time of their service. Likewise, Moses had the Israelites abstain from intercourse as he ascended Mount Sinai (Ex. 20:15). There is a theme here of refraining from marital rights because of the presence of something very holy.

The Church Fathers knew that there was something greater than the temple in Mary’s womb, comparing it to the Eastern Gate mentioned in Ezekiel 44: "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut." Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament.

Now, if Uzzah was struck dead for touching the Ark (2 Sam. 6:6–8), should it be surprising that Joseph understood that Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone? The idea that Joseph assumed normal marital relations with Mary after the birth of Christ was an irreverence that even the Protestant reformers rejected.

Interestingly, according to Jewish law, if a man was betrothed to a woman and she became pregnant from another, he could never have relations with her. The man had to put her away privately or condemn her in public and put her to death. Joseph chose the more merciful option.

Then, the angel told him to lead her into the house as a wife (paralambano gunaika), but the language that describes marital relations is not used here. It was used, however, in Luke 1:35: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you." To "overshadow" a woman was a euphemism for having a marital relationship, as was the phrase "to lay one’s power" over a woman. The Holy Spirit had espoused Mary, and she had been consecrated, set apart for God.

Also, it appears that Mary had made a vow of virginity. When the angel said that she would conceive and bear a son, she asked, "How can this be, since I do not know man?" She knew how babies were made, and she was about to be married. "How can this be?" would seem like a pretty silly question unless she had made a prior vow of virginity.

And then you have documents outside of the Bible as well. I suppose could just chuck all as myth...to each his own. Thanks for your opinion.

As to your last point being a veiled vow of virginity because she asked how can I be pregnant since I haven't yet been with a man? That would be a standard response no? Where do you read in that that she made a vow to remain a virgin? That is a catholic belief which is nowhere to be found in the bible, that she remained a virgin. You can remain steadfast in your belief that she remained a virgin by claiming Jesus brothers were his step brothers but the bible does not state that nor does it state that she remained a virgin. Personally I believe the whole virgin birth thing was a later accretion, a mythological layer added to give more credence to his divine person hood.

 

[Sleeppy]

The word there doesn't really mean "virgin".....The word there means (young woman)...

Are you sure?

 

[Sleeppy]

the universe came out of 'nothing'

Spoiler

BANG

No it didn't.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Are you sure?

Yep....it "can" mean virgin but the problem is Metthew uses one word for virgin and Luke uses another. Matthew tries to tie prophecy back to Isaiah 7:14..but if one read Isaiah 14 in context they'd realize the person being described is not a virgin but a young girl/woman and the context of Isaiah is about Israel and nothing to do with Yeshua.