Masculinity

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm surprised so many people today are asking what masculinity means..

The dictionary says it means "having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man". If it is still unclear, I'm very concerned about whether there are any men at all in the lives of the people here asking what masculinity is and wondering if the term is useful.

The issue with that is it is circular and doesn't actually define masculine. It takes a leap and assumes the reader knows what is usually associated with a man. But it's clearly not that clear or obvious because this thread does exist and is getting varied answers.

 

[Kooky]

My opinion isn't unsupported on any level. It is your opinion that has no support that I'm aware of.

I disagree.

 

[Shakeel]

The issue with that is it is circular and doesn't actually define masculine. It takes a leap and assumes the reader knows what is usually associated with a man. But it's clearly not that clear or obvious because this thread does exist and is getting varied answers.

I know and I expressed concern over the confused ones. I don't know if it's the education, the parents, the role models, the alcohol, the TV or the homosexuals, but something has clearly made them confused.

 

[Meow Mix]

I know and I expressed concern over the confused ones. I don't know if it's the education, the parents, the role models, the alcohol, the TV or the homosexuals, but something has clearly made them confused.

It could be none of those things: it could be that people understand what tradition says in particular cultures and they disagree.

For instance it was once thought that logical, mathematical, spatial, and other types of reasoning were the realm of men, that they are “masculine.” It’s not that people don’t understand that traditionally some cultures have thought this way; it’s that people are disagreeing some things once considered “masculine” are such.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I know and I expressed concern over the confused ones. I don't know if it's the education, the parents, the role models, the alcohol, the TV or the homosexuals, but something has clearly made them confused.

There's no confusion. Not everyone has the same idea of masculinity, or even a healthy idea of it. This thread demonstrates how varied such an answer can be.
Myself, I think the 10th Doctor is a great example of an ideal masculinity. He's very intelligent, smart and witty. He radiates confidence with a deserved touch of cockiness. He admits when he doesn't know and faces the unknown with the same courage and tenacity of his oldest and most well known enemies. He takes charge as a leader who looks after those under his care. He's slow to anger and violence, has no want of a deadly weapon, and will extend a hand of mercy (and will take it back just as quick if that hand is bitten). He has a very neat and handsome appearance, he is very secure in himself, and he is very much a ladies man. He's not afraid of his feelings, and he isn't afraid to say "I'm sorry." To me that is an ideal man, but yet it sharply contrasts to something like Clint Eastwood or John Wayne in many ways.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I know and I expressed concern over the confused ones. I don't know if it's the education, the parents, the role models, the alcohol, the TV or the homosexuals, but something has clearly made them confused.

It could be world travel and historical perspectives confusing them?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I've heard that real men don't eat quiche, but other than that, I'm not sure.

An omelet with a crust -- real men should actually be smarter than that. Knuckle dragging doesn't define masculinity.

 

[Stevicus]

An omelet with a crust -- real men should actually be smarter than that. Knuckle dragging doesn't define masculinity.

This is the kind of thing that real men do. (No, don't really do this.)

 

[Stevicus]

Here's some more real men in action.

This is what being a real man is all about.

 

[Shakeel]

There's no confusion. Not everyone has the same idea of masculinity, or even a healthy idea of it. This thread demonstrates how varied such an answer can be.
Myself, I think the 10th Doctor is a great example of an ideal masculinity. He's very intelligent, smart and witty. He radiates confidence with a deserved touch of cockiness. He admits when he doesn't know and faces the unknown with the same courage and tenacity of his oldest and most well known enemies. He takes charge as a leader who looks after those under his care. He's slow to anger and violence, has no want of a deadly weapon, and will extend a hand of mercy (and will take it back just as quick if that hand is bitten). He has a very neat and handsome appearance, he is very secure in himself, and he is very much a ladies man. He's not afraid of his feelings, and he isn't afraid to say "I'm sorry." To me that is an ideal man, but yet it sharply contrasts to something like Clint Eastwood or John Wayne in many ways.

An ideal man ≠ masculinity

There's at most 4 masculine qualities there. Most are neither feminine nor masculine.

Is it unfeminine to say, "I'm sorry?" women say it more than men. It isn't because men are afraid to say it. It's because women feel the need to say it more often.

Are women quick to become violent? Are they not intelligent? Are women not secure with themselves? Are women not merciful?

 

[Shakeel]

It could be world travel and historical perspectives confusing them?

Where did they travel?

 

[Meow Mix]

An ideal man ≠ masculinity

There's at most 4 masculine qualities there. Most are neither feminine nor masculine.

Is it unfeminine to say, "I'm sorry?" women say it more than men. It isn't because men are afraid to say it. It's because women feel the need to say it more often.

Are women quick to become violent? Are they not intelligent? Are women not secure with themselves? Are women not merciful?

Which qualities do you think are masculine from the bunch?

Also I was confused by your question: were you implying it is feminine to say "I'm sorry," or was your question not rhetorical?

I will repeat the quote so you have easy access to it:
Shadow Wolf said: "There's no confusion. Not everyone has the same idea of masculinity, or even a healthy idea of it. This thread demonstrates how varied such an answer can be.
Myself, I think the 10th Doctor is a great example of an ideal masculinity. He's very intelligent, smart and witty. He radiates confidence with a deserved touch of cockiness. He admits when he doesn't know and faces the unknown with the same courage and tenacity of his oldest and most well known enemies. He takes charge as a leader who looks after those under his care. He's slow to anger and violence, has no want of a deadly weapon, and will extend a hand of mercy (and will take it back just as quick if that hand is bitten). He has a very neat and handsome appearance, he is very secure in himself, and he is very much a ladies man. He's not afraid of his feelings, and he isn't afraid to say "I'm sorry." To me that is an ideal man, but yet it sharply contrasts to something like Clint Eastwood or John Wayne in many ways."

 

[Shakeel]

which qualities do you think are masculine from the bunch?

Leadership, handsome, looks after those under his care. I was on the fence with "radiates confidence" - but would say it isn't a masculine quality.

 

[Shakeel]

Also I was confused by your question: were you implying it is feminine to say "I'm sorry,"

No. It's neither feminine nor masculine by itself. That's why I said unfeminine instead of saying not feminine.

 

[Meow Mix]

Leadership, handsome, looks after those under his care. I was on the fence with "radiates confidence" - but would say it isn't a masculine quality.

Okay. Personally I'd give handsome. I think women make fine leaders, though.

As for looking out for those under their care, I'm on the fence on that one. Do we mean bodily? While there are certainly women that can look after themselves from physical threats, I'm not sure I would call a woman masculine if she knew self-defense for instance, or was able to protect someone else. For instance, just to use a really exaggerated, fantastic example, I don't look at Wonder Woman and think "boy, is she manly." I don't think I'd think that about a woman that fought professionally either (to bring it back to real life), and I could see a woman MMA fighter protecting her friends.

The reason I'm on the fence about this is because things like the ability to perform physically is sexually dimorphic in humans (but as with any curve, there is going to be overlap). Some things are more cultural than they are biological, and that's where I think some of the problems arise with gendering traits.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

An ideal man ≠ masculinity

There's at most 4 masculine qualities there. Most are neither feminine nor masculine.

Is it unfeminine to say, "I'm sorry?" women say it more than men. It isn't because men are afraid to say it. It's because women feel the need to say it more often.

Are women quick to become violent? Are they not intelligent? Are women not secure with themselves? Are women not merciful?

Was I describing femininity or saying masculine or feminine traits can't overlap? (nopoe)

No. It's neither feminine nor masculine by itself. That's why I said unfeminine instead of saying not feminine.

But it takes strength of character and integrity. That is a good thing for men and women.
And, keep in mind, men and women tend to display some of the same general things, like strength, but go about it in different ways.

 

[Meow Mix]

And, keep in mind, men and women tend to display some of the same general things, like strength, but go about it in different ways.

Maybe?

I think there arise a few questions here:

Are gendered traits prescriptive, such that we should avoid traits that are considered something other than our gender? Is it shameful to have traits that are considered something other than our gender? Should someone not be taken seriously that is displaying a trait not normally associated with their gender? These are the things that I think are problematic.

Also problematic is the tendency to label traits leading to success as masculine while labeling traits leading to passiveness and career stagnancy as feminine.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As for looking out for those under their care, I'm on the fence on that one. Do we mean bodily?

Not just bodily harm, but emotional wellness as best he can by reassuring people and helping to keep them calm, informing people of what's going on, and not being a jerk or bossy about it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe?

I think there arise a few questions here:

Are gendered traits prescriptive, such that we should avoid traits that are considered something other than our gender? Is it shameful to have traits that are considered something other than our gender? Should someone not be taken seriously that is displaying a trait not normally associated with their gender? These are the things that I think are problematic.

Also problematic is the tendency to label traits leading to success as masculine while labeling traits leading to passiveness and career stagnancy as feminine.

I tend to use many of the same terms if I were to provide a list of masculine and feminine traits. As I indicated, some of the same general things are there--like confidence, strength and intelligence--but men and women tend to go about some of these things in a different way. Sometimes because it's physical, like strength where men have the ability to lift more but women often excel in things like gymnastics due to better flexibility; sometimes it's socially prescriptive like how women and men tend to view caring roles. And then sometimes, like learning and intelligence, I'm not aware of any real or significant differences.

 

[Meow Mix]

I tend to use many of the same terms if I were to provide a list of masculine and feminine traits. As I indicated, some of the same general things are there--like confidence, strength and intelligence--but men and women tend to go about some of these things in a different way. Sometimes because it's physical, like strength where men have the ability to lift more but women often excel in things like gymnastics due to better flexibility; sometimes it's socially prescriptive like how women and men tend to view caring roles. And then sometimes, like learning and intelligence, I'm not aware of any real or significant differences.

When I was typing to Shakeel about protectors and how I didn't necessarily see it as being unfeminine, I did feel this intuition (not sure if problematic or not) relating to how I could see how someone went about doing that might feel more masculine or feminine. So for instance someone like Black Widow that is very lithe, uses technique rather than brute strength, etc. feels somehow more feminine than a woman that uses brute strength. But I don't see anything prescriptive about that, or that would be shameful, to be less feminine. It would just be a neutral descriptor.

In the same sense that I dress less or more feminine depending on my mood and how I want to be interacted with subtly differently. For instance this avatar near campus, very neutral (despite the pink). If I wear a dress with my hair down though? I know what I'm doing when I do that. One is more feminine, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the "less feminine."