How would you know that? If you believe that Christians don’t believe it’s a sin, what’s the point then? If they do believe it’s a sin and do it anyway, I can see the point of the OP.
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Masturbation proves many Christians don't believe what they profess
- Thread starter Moonjuice
- Start date
Moonjuice
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Okay, you seem to understand it perfectly. I guess I just don't understand your point at all. Sorry!
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I think it illustrates what happens if you choose fantasy over nature.
I've written about dozens of things -- not just the "click-bait" ones -- that seem to show that most so-called "believers" don't actually hold their beliefs deeply. It is my view that a majority of people "believe that they believe," but don't truly believe at that deep level that informs their actions.
I didn't mean to leave you out, sorry.
I mentioned Acts 17:28 as one of the verses that convince many (and perhaps most) Christians that we live in God. It is a common thing. There are songs about this, but you're right to point out that its only one interpretation. There are (and I have heard them discuss this) Christians who think of God as having human parts.I am arguing against the OP which claims that Christians generally think of God as being in a location looking at people from there. That is not common, not today at least. Generally speaking most Christians, probably 90% + believe God is omnipresent which partly invalidates the argument about most Christians from the OP if put in concert with the post I have made.
Most of the American Christians referred to in the OP and whom are not recognized members of the true church by the Jehovah's witnesses, don't say 'Jehovah' which is a proper noun.
To say 'God' can act as a tiny confession that we don't understand everything, that our understanding isn't everything. It can be thought of as an improper noun, sort of like the Jewish 'G-d' term. It also has roots in some of the more commonly accepted catholic attributes of God such as transcendence and omnipresence.
Proverbs 15:3. At the risk of showing off my thoughts, I suspect it refers to a belief that God is in us, revealed in us etc. We have lots of eyes.
Moonjuice
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Because it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong. Lets just call it a sin. I'll simplify the question: Why are there certain sins you have no trouble committing in front of Jesus, but you will not commit them in front of your actual flesh and blood father? That is the point of the question.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Yeah but your post kinda assumes it is for Christians. You could insert any sin and say the same thing that you did.
I think the OP is saying in general, believers, if they believe God is staring at them won't sin. I disagree with that the following is part of a long prayer taught by Imam Sajjad (a):
O God,
this is the Day of 'Arafa,
a day which Thou hast made noble, given honour, and magnified.
Within it Thou hast spread Thy mercy,
showed kindness through Thy pardon,
and made plentiful Thy giving,
and by it Thou hast been bounteous toward Thy servants.
I am Thy servant whom Thou favoured before creating him
and after creating him.
Thou madest him one of those whom Thou
guided to Thy religion,
gavest success in fulfilling Thy right,
preserved through Thy cord,
included within Thy party,
and directed aright to befriend Thy friends
and show enmity to Thine enemies.
Then Thou commanded him,
but he did not follow Thy commands,
Thou restricted Him,
but he did not heed Thy restrictions,
Thou prohibited him from disobedience toward Thee,
but he broke Thy command by doing what Thou hadst prohibited,
not in contention with Thee,
nor to display pride toward Thee;
on the contrary, his caprice228 called him
to that which Thou hadst set apart and cautioned against,
and he was helped in that by Thy enemy and his enemy.
So he went ahead with it
knowing Thy threat,
hoping for Thy pardon,
and relying upon Thy forbearance,
though he was the most obligated of Thy servants
- given Thy kindness toward him -
not to do so.
Here I am, then, before Thee,
despised, lowly, humble, abject, fearful,
confessing the dreadful sins with which I am burdened
and the great offenses that I have committed,
seeking sanctuary in Thy forgiveness,
asking shelter in Thy mercy,
and certain that
no sanctuary-giver will give me sanctuary from Thee
and no withholder will hold me back from Thee.
So act kindly toward me,
just as Thou actest kindly
by Thy shielding him who commits sins,
be munificent toward me,
just as Thou art munificent
by pardoning him who throws himself before Thee,
and show kindness to me,
just as it is nothing great for Thee to show kindness
by forgiving him who expectantly hopes in Thee!
Appoint for me in this day an allotment
through which I may attain
a share of Thy good pleasure,
and send me not back destitute
of that with which Thy worshipers return
from among Thy servants!
Though I have not forwarded
the righteous deeds
which they have forwarded,
I have forwarded the profession of Thy Unity
and the negation from Thee
of opposites, rivals, and likenesses,
I have come to Thee by the gateways
by which Thou hast commanded
that people come,
and I have sought nearness to Thee
through that without seeking nearness through which
none gains nearness to Thee.
Then I followed all this
with repeated turning toward Thee,
lowliness and abasement before Thee,
opinion of Thee,
and trust in what is with Thee;
and to that I coupled hope in Thee,
since the one who hopes in Thee
is seldom disappointed!
I asked Thee with the asking of one
vile, lowly,
pitiful, poor,
fearful, seeking sanctuary;
all that in fear and pleading
seeking refuge and asking shelter,
not presumptuous through the pride of the proud,
nor exalting myself with the boldness of the obedient,
nor presumptuous of the intercession of the interceders.
For I am still the least of the least
and the lowliest of the lowly,
like a dust mote or less!
O He who does not hurry the evildoers
nor restrain those living in ease!229
O He who shows kindness through releasing the stumblers
and gratuitous bounty through respiting the offenders!
I am the evildoer, the confessor, the offender, the stumbler!
I am he who was audacious toward Thee as one insolent!
I am he who disobeyed Thee with forethought!
I am he who hid myself from Thy servants
and blatantly showed myself to Thee!230
I am he who was awed by Thy servants
and felt secure from Thee!
I am he who dreaded not Thy penalty
and feared not Thy severity!
I am the offender against himself!
I am the hostage to his own affliction!
I am short in shame!
I am long in suffering!
----
And the prayer goes on: Sahife Sajjadiya (duas.org)
O God,
this is the Day of 'Arafa,
a day which Thou hast made noble, given honour, and magnified.
Within it Thou hast spread Thy mercy,
showed kindness through Thy pardon,
and made plentiful Thy giving,
and by it Thou hast been bounteous toward Thy servants.
I am Thy servant whom Thou favoured before creating him
and after creating him.
Thou madest him one of those whom Thou
guided to Thy religion,
gavest success in fulfilling Thy right,
preserved through Thy cord,
included within Thy party,
and directed aright to befriend Thy friends
and show enmity to Thine enemies.
Then Thou commanded him,
but he did not follow Thy commands,
Thou restricted Him,
but he did not heed Thy restrictions,
Thou prohibited him from disobedience toward Thee,
but he broke Thy command by doing what Thou hadst prohibited,
not in contention with Thee,
nor to display pride toward Thee;
on the contrary, his caprice228 called him
to that which Thou hadst set apart and cautioned against,
and he was helped in that by Thy enemy and his enemy.
So he went ahead with it
knowing Thy threat,
hoping for Thy pardon,
and relying upon Thy forbearance,
though he was the most obligated of Thy servants
- given Thy kindness toward him -
not to do so.
Here I am, then, before Thee,
despised, lowly, humble, abject, fearful,
confessing the dreadful sins with which I am burdened
and the great offenses that I have committed,
seeking sanctuary in Thy forgiveness,
asking shelter in Thy mercy,
and certain that
no sanctuary-giver will give me sanctuary from Thee
and no withholder will hold me back from Thee.
So act kindly toward me,
just as Thou actest kindly
by Thy shielding him who commits sins,
be munificent toward me,
just as Thou art munificent
by pardoning him who throws himself before Thee,
and show kindness to me,
just as it is nothing great for Thee to show kindness
by forgiving him who expectantly hopes in Thee!
Appoint for me in this day an allotment
through which I may attain
a share of Thy good pleasure,
and send me not back destitute
of that with which Thy worshipers return
from among Thy servants!
Though I have not forwarded
the righteous deeds
which they have forwarded,
I have forwarded the profession of Thy Unity
and the negation from Thee
of opposites, rivals, and likenesses,
I have come to Thee by the gateways
by which Thou hast commanded
that people come,
and I have sought nearness to Thee
through that without seeking nearness through which
none gains nearness to Thee.
Then I followed all this
with repeated turning toward Thee,
lowliness and abasement before Thee,
opinion of Thee,
and trust in what is with Thee;
and to that I coupled hope in Thee,
since the one who hopes in Thee
is seldom disappointed!
I asked Thee with the asking of one
vile, lowly,
pitiful, poor,
fearful, seeking sanctuary;
all that in fear and pleading
seeking refuge and asking shelter,
not presumptuous through the pride of the proud,
nor exalting myself with the boldness of the obedient,
nor presumptuous of the intercession of the interceders.
For I am still the least of the least
and the lowliest of the lowly,
like a dust mote or less!
O He who does not hurry the evildoers
nor restrain those living in ease!229
O He who shows kindness through releasing the stumblers
and gratuitous bounty through respiting the offenders!
I am the evildoer, the confessor, the offender, the stumbler!
I am he who was audacious toward Thee as one insolent!
I am he who disobeyed Thee with forethought!
I am he who hid myself from Thy servants
and blatantly showed myself to Thee!230
I am he who was awed by Thy servants
and felt secure from Thee!
I am he who dreaded not Thy penalty
and feared not Thy severity!
I am the offender against himself!
I am the hostage to his own affliction!
I am short in shame!
I am long in suffering!
----
And the prayer goes on: Sahife Sajjadiya (duas.org)
nPeace
Veteran Member
Looking at porn is a good example. Same principle.
I'm really puzzled are your response to a post that addressed you OP in detail. Really odd.
Moonjuice
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Totally disagree.
I specifically chose an action you would not do in front of your actual parents, that people generally only do alone when they think no one is watching. Everyone has lied in front of their parents. How many masturbate in front of their parents?
Moonjuice
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Not following your grammar.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
I'm not sure why parents come into the discussion at all. God is not literally my dad.
My Dad isn't omnipresent.
And I can only remember lying to or in front of my parents once.
I don't have sex with my wife in front of my parents either but I'm sure they know we do it.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Typo. I'm really puzzled at your response to a post that addressed your OP in detail. It's really odd. - your response, that is.
I can see where that might lead to a complete reinterpretation of out of body experiences, for instance.
What limits your thinking on a broader application of this regarding other theologies or Christianity in other countries? Why the hands off? Is there some question of inconsistency in reproductive physiology of males from other religions?
Do you have concerns about the performance of a smaller survey?
I shudder to wonder what kind of experiences in the subject area provide a basis for greater acceptance that this data is accurate.
I appreciate that you don't distinguish between claiming to be Christian and being Christian.
According to Genesis 4:9, God is not always watching. But not watching us does not mean not with us.
You did previously state that you have experiences that lead you to more readily accept the survey data. Other peoples parents are still parents even if they are not your parents. Just wondering for a friend, friend.
The survey doesn't address religion or religious differences, so there isn't much you can get from it on those differences directly from the data.
From the data, it looks like the majority of the global population of adults masturbate. A larger proportion in Europe and North America masturbate compared to the rest of the world. More men masturbate than women. Those appear to be the main findings.
Christian men could be masturbating even while believing God is watching. They may not care. They may not think about it. Some may not believe God is watching. Who can say? How believers act would tell us something about the believers, but not about what is believed. I can't really say this tells us all that much about the believers.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
This thread reminds me of two things.
First, it reminds me of the stories some of us were told as kids about how Santa Claus watched everything we did, and if we weren't good we wouldn't get any Christmas presents.
Second, it reminds me of (WARNING: Don't click the spoiler button below if sexual things offend you)....
First, it reminds me of the stories some of us were told as kids about how Santa Claus watched everything we did, and if we weren't good we wouldn't get any Christmas presents.
Second, it reminds me of (WARNING: Don't click the spoiler button below if sexual things offend you)....
...one of my college roommates used to have a saying when he's see a really good looking woman...."She's so hot, you'd do her in front of your grandma".
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Steve Martin, back when he was a (my favorite) standup comedian had a bit where he said....
Farrah Fawcett is soooo conceited. She won't return any of my calls. And after the hours I've spent holding up her poster with one hand!
Moonjuice
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
I understand that Christians believe Jesus is with them at all times because I was a Christian for many years and that’s what I believed, along with everyone I knew. I do not know if people with other religious beliefs think their God is with them or “sees” what they do. It’s not hands off, just not sure the point makes sense if you do not think God can see what you do. I was trying to avoid the “well, as a ____, we don’t believe god can see us at all” type of response. I thought I briefly explained that in the OP.
This was the first survey found. The %’s aren’t that important to the point. Could be only 20%, rather than 90% and the question remains. We don’t even need a survey to make the point technically
the accuracy of the data is not the point.
This is the point. No one would do this act in front of a real parent, but many (whatever the % is) do it in front of their celestial father with no problem. Most think this has something to do with a sinful nature or something, but that can’t be it or they’d do it in front of their real parents just as easily as their god. Must be some other reason, like the invisibility of god perhaps? Perhaps they don’t really believe god can see what they are doing.
Ahm, where does it say Christians shouldn't masturbate?
(Onan, sometimes referred to in this context, was instead practicing coitus interruptus, withdrawal before orgasm. And if I remember aright, even that was wrong not by reason of the deed itself but because it was a dereliction of his duty to his late brother.)
So what is more likely; American Christian men do not really masturbate, or the claim that Christians make about honestly believing their God is watching us all at times is not only incorrect, but their actions indicate they don't actually believe it themselves?[/QUOTE]