Mat-Su bans transgender students from bathrooms that match their gender identity

[Callisto]

Without even getting into the expense and medical risk of transitioning not be accessible to all, they're rallied to in part because the concept of passing has ever been a harmful concept for trans and cis people, holding up inconsistent and narrow ideas about how men, women or nonbinary folk should look.

It's people looking to 'clock' trans people that are the problem, not people who think woman is a woman regardless of if she has facial hair or flat chest.

There's nothing narrow about it, it's simply hardwired inherent human perception of male vs female. And that undermines your assertion, this is generally understood and trans people regularly seek to appear as their gender whether they pursue surgery or not and can take offense if someone doesn't recognize the gender they identify as. Regardless of whether a person is cis or trans or socio-political opinions, humans recognize gender predominately via appearance. Someone who is clearly a biological male, regardless of attire or how they identify, is going to be perceived as male by everyone including other trans people which is why the trans community demands "preferred pronouns" be a thing.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

There's nothing narrow about it, it's simply hardwired inherent human perception of male vs female. And that undermines your assertion, this is generally understood and trans people regularly seek to appear as their gender whether they pursue surgery or not and can take offense if someone doesn't recognize the gender they identify as. Regardless of whether a person is cis or trans or socio-political opinions, humans recognize gender predominately via appearance. Someone who is clearly a biological male, regardless of attire or how they identify, is going to be perceived as male by everyone including other trans people which is why the trans community demands "preferred pronouns" be a thing.

Neverminding that what's called 'hardwiring' certain beauty standards has nothing to do with inherent priperties of males and females and everything to do with culturally infantalizing woman as beautiful pieces of property (and I do mean infantalizing, big eyed hairless smooth skinned traits having more to do with children than actual traits of being a woman.)

Women who do not fall into this category are mistaken as 'obviously biologically male' (I've found that terfs are, in fact, really ****ty at actually clocking people's sex, birth sex or otherwise) are scorned for falling outside cultural, not natural traits.

How many cis women in your life have unnatural gender affirming procedures, I wonder. Electrolysis of facial hair, breast augmentation, facial reconstruction, all because of social stereotyping against the true variation of female presentation.

 

[Callisto]

Neverminding that what's called 'hardwiring' certain beauty standards has nothing to do with inherent priperties of males and females and everything to do with culturally infantalizing woman as beautiful pieces of property (and I do mean infantalizing, big eyed hairless smooth skinned traits having more to do with children than actual traits of being a woman.)

Women who do not fall into this category are mistaken as 'obviously biologically male' (I've found that terfs are, in fact, really ****ty at actually clocking people's sex, birth sex or otherwise) are scorned for falling outside cultural, not natural traits.

How many cis women in your life have unnatural gender affirming procedures, I wonder. Electrolysis of facial hair, breast augmentation, facial reconstruction, all because of social stereotyping against the true variation of female presentation.

Who said anything about beauty? Humans recognize distinctions between biological males and females. Occasionally, a person may have a condition that can cause them to be initially mistaken but that has less to do with "beauty" and more to do with things like hormonal imbalances.

How many have had procedures for vanity purposes? Outside of those who are performers, very few unless you count those who have had mastectomies due to breast cancer. Regardless, that's a lame and irrelevant question as every one of either gender does things that make them feel better about themselves and their appearance.

 

[fantome profane]

There's nothing narrow about it, it's simply hardwired inherent human perception of male vs female. And that undermines your assertion, this is generally understood and trans people regularly seek to appear as their gender whether they pursue surgery or not and can take offense if someone doesn't recognize the gender they identify as. Regardless of whether a person is cis or trans or socio-political opinions, humans recognize gender predominately via appearance. Someone who is clearly a biological male, regardless of attire or how they identify, is going to be perceived as male by everyone including other trans people which is why the trans community demands "preferred pronouns" be a thing.

And that is no different than cis people. If a cis woman is mistaken for a man she is likely going to be offended, if a cis man is mistaken for a women he will be offended. And we all expect to be addressed with correct pronouns, titles, and names.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Who said anything about beauty? Humans recognize distinctions between biological males and females. Occasionally, a person may have a condition that can cause them to be initially mistaken but that has less to do with "beauty" and more to do with things like hormonal imbalances.

How many have had procedures for vanity purposes? Outside of those who are performers, very few unless you count those who have had mastectomies due to breast cancer. Regardless, that's a lame and irrelevant question as every one of either gender does things that make them feel better about themselves and their appearance.

'Hormone imbalances' that effect more woman than red hair color, but no, things like hirsutism is often but not always hormone imbalance (it's also a common ethnic trait) and things like tiny chest size or exomorphic frames aren't 'hormone imbalances' either. They're just variations on the popular beauty standard. Which definitely shouldn't be confused for 'what women naturally look like.'

Do you really only think performers have those surgeries and procedures? Oh dear.

Also if it makes people feel better about themselves I have no problem with people getting it. What I do have a problem with is cultural pressure for people to get them because they need to look a certain way to be considered 'real' men or women.

This is why 'passing' is a harmful concept for both trams and cis men and women.

And how many wouldn't get them if that social pressure didn't exist?

 

[Callisto]

And that is no different than cis people. If a cis woman is mistaken for a man she is likely going to be offended, if a cis man is mistaken for a women he will be offended. And we all expect to be addressed with correct pronouns, titles, and names.

Except that a cis woman is biologically female and identifies as female and if something initially obscures her gender like utilitarian gear, a uniform or a medical condition, that's an honest mistake for which she may be irritated by but she also knows that does happen from time to time.

Whereas it's impossible for anyone to identify a biological male or female who still presents as such as someone who identifies as other than their biological state. What is considered correct is typically what applies to the overwhelming majority of a populace. Trans people make up less than 1% of the population which means the overwhelming majority of the time people identify with and generally appear as their biological sex.

 

[fantome profane]

Except that a cis woman is biologically female and identifies as female and if something initially obscures her gender like utilitarian gear, a uniform or a medical condition, that's an honest mistake for which she may be irritated by but she also knows that does happen from time to time.

Whereas it's impossible for anyone to identify a biological male or female who still presents as such as someone who identifies as other than their biological state. What is considered correct is typically what applies to the overwhelming majority of a populace. Trans people make up less than 1% of the population which means the overwhelming majority of the time people identify with and generally appear as their biological sex.

Not getting your point.

 

[Callisto]

'Hormone imbalances' that effect more woman than red hair color, but no, things like hirsutism is often but not always hormone imbalance (it's also a common ethnic trait) and things like tiny chest size or exomorphic frames aren't 'hormone imbalances' either. They're just variations on the popular beauty standard. Which definitely shouldn't be confused for 'what women naturally look like.'

Do you really only think performers have those surgeries and procedures? Oh dear.

Also if it makes people feel better about themselves I have no problem with people getting it. What I do have a problem with is cultural pressure for people to get them because they need to look a certain way to be considered 'real' men or women.

This is why 'passing' is a harmful concept for both trams and cis men and women.

And how many wouldn't get them if that social pressure didn't exist?

I didn't say I think only performers have those surgeries, you asked who I personally know who has had those surgeries. I work in the entertainment industry so I do have the comparison between various women and men I in the business vs those who are not.

Women and men make changes to their appearances to make themselves feel better about themselves. Never mind vanity or societal standards, hirsutism for women can be a colossal pain in the arse, even men don't like shaving and find it annoying. So no, it's not just about beauty standards. Many people voluntarily opt for modifications that don't conform to beauty standards (e.g., piercings, whole body tattoos, body branding, etc.).

If passing was harmful, then so trans persons wouldn't attempt it. Yet that is the norm among them from the style of dress, hair, etc. to seeking more permanent alterations via hormones and procedures.

 

[Callisto]

Not getting your point.

It's pretty evident. If you can't get it, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[We Never Know]

Except that a cis woman is biologically female and identifies as female and if something initially obscures her gender like utilitarian gear, a uniform or a medical condition, that's an honest mistake for which she may be irritated by but she also knows that does happen from time to time.

Whereas it's impossible for anyone to identify a biological male or female who still presents as such as someone who identifies as other than their biological state. What is considered correct is typically what applies to the overwhelming majority of a populace. Trans people make up less than 1% of the population which means the overwhelming majority of the time people identify with and generally appear as their biological sex.

I sometimes wonder.. how can a male identify as a female? How do they know how a female feels, thinks, needs, etc.? And vise-versa with females identifying as male.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I sometimes wonder.. how can a male identify as a female? How do they know how a female feels, thinks, needs, etc.? And vise-versa with females identifying as male.

It's our psychological view of ourselves. We all have a mental image of ourselves and innate tendencies, and for transsexuals, we experience ourselves internally as the opposite sex to which we were born. Men and women tend to have different psychologies and transsexuals tend to gravitate towards their natal counterparts in terms of our behavior, interests, mannerisms, etc. - basically the things that marks us out as men and women, socially. But it's not just socially.

What causes this is a disconnect from the brain/mind and the rest of our body, which can be similar to body dysmorphic disorder, in that it causes a sense of dysphoria. It appears to have to do with exposure to high amounts of cross-sex hormones in the womb, which causes the brain to masculinize or feminize regardless of chromosomes, at least in various regions. We don't really know what causes it, but it is a real thing and we're not just making it up. There's various factors and one of those is sensitivity to hormones. Transsexuals tend to be very sensitive to the effects of hormones, even in terms of our moods. This is partially why we tend to become very depressed during puberty, because the brain seems to have a preferred hormone that it functions better with. There's a lot of studies about digit ratio which ties into all of this, as well.

I've always seen myself as a male in my mind. I don't expect others to understand it, really, but at least know that it's not some sort of delusion or we're just "crazy". It's a real thing, and has something to do with the complex interplay of genes and hormones. It's a medical condition, and it's always existed. There's historical evidence of people living as the opposite sex they were born as, going back to ancient times in various cultures. We know the practice of males castrating themselves to be more feminine is a very, very ancient practice, for example. It's just that it's become very politicized to a harmful extent as of late.

 

[We Never Know]

It's our psychological view of ourselves. We all have a mental image of ourselves and innate tendencies, and for transsexuals, we experience ourselves internally as the opposite sex to which we were born. Men and women tend to have different psychologies and transsexuals tend to gravitate towards their natal counterparts in terms of our behavior, interests, mannerisms, etc. - basically the things that marks us out as men and women, socially. But it's not just socially.

What causes this is a disconnect from the brain/mind and the rest of our body, which can be similar to body dysmorphic disorder, in that it causes a sense of dysphoria. It appears to have to do with exposure to high amounts of cross-sex hormones in the womb, which causes the brain to masculinize or feminize regardless of chromosomes, at least in various regions. We don't really know what causes it, but it is a real thing and we're not just making it up. There's various factors and one of those is sensitivity to hormones. Transsexuals tend to be very sensitive to the effects of hormones, even in terms of our moods. This is partially why we tend to become very depressed during puberty, because the brain seems to have a preferred hormone that it functions better with. There's a lot of studies about digit ratio which ties into all of this, as well.

I've always seen myself as a male in my mind. I don't expect others to understand it, really, but at least know that it's not some sort of delusion or we're just "crazy". It's a real thing, and has something to do with the complex interplay of genes and hormones. It's a medical condition, and it's always existed. There's historical evidence of people living as the opposite sex they were born as, going back to ancient times in various cultures. We know the practice of males castrating themselves to be more feminine is a very, very ancient practice, for example. It's just that it's become very politicized to a harmful extent as of late.

"I've always seen myself as a male in my mind. I don't expect others to understand it"

And that exceptable if it makes you happy. But that doesn't tell me how you know how a male feels.

I'm not being a *** but cats and humans share 90.2 % of their DNA.
If someone claims to identify as a cat, should we honor that? How would they know how a cat identifies?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"I've always seen myself as a male in my mind. I don't expect others to understand it"

And that exceptable if it makes you happy. But that doesn't tell me how you know how a male feels.

I'm not being a *** but cats and humans share 90.2 % of their DNA.
If someone claims to identify as a cat, should we honor that? How would they know how a cat identifies?

It's not about making me happy. This is just who I am.

We know the differences between male and female behavior and psychology through scientific research, and just observation and lived experience. It's more about what you relate to, what comes naturally to you, how you behave and what others accept you as (there's a huge social aspect of manhood and womanhood).

 

[We Never Know]

It's not about making me happy. This is just who I am.

We know the differences between male and female behavior and psychology through scientific research, and just observation and lived experience. It's more about what you relate to, what comes naturally to you, how you behave and what others accept you as (there's a huge social aspect of manhood and womanhood).

Don't actors who research, study and live the role to get a part do the same thing?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Don't actors who research, study and live the role to get a part do the same thing?

No, because it's not acting.

 

[We Never Know]

No, because it's not acting.

They way you described it, it isnt much different.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They way you described it, it isnt much different.

You must have misunderstood, because that's not what I was saying.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I didn't say I think only performers have those surgeries, you asked who I personally know who has had those surgeries. I work in the entertainment industry so I do have the comparison between various women and men I in the business vs those who are not.

Women and men make changes to their appearances to make themselves feel better about themselves. Never mind vanity or societal standards, hirsutism for women can be a colossal pain in the arse, even men don't like shaving and find it annoying. So no, it's not just about beauty standards. Many people voluntarily opt for modifications that don't conform to beauty standards (e.g., piercings, whole body tattoos, body branding, etc.).

If passing was harmful, then so trans persons wouldn't attempt it. Yet that is the norm among them from the style of dress, hair, etc. to seeking more permanent alterations via hormones and procedures.

You don't think 'feel better about themselves' isn't hugely informed by cultural aesthetics including cultural perceptions on what it means to look female or look male and toxic media constantly pushing narrow and often unhealthy standards for men and women to be attractive and accepted?

The harmful thing isn't having a personal or even cultural aesthetic. The harmful thing is pressuring other people to fulfill that aesthetic out of some bull**** sense of obligation. I.e. 'real' cis or trans women wear makeup or 'real' cis or trans women wear dresses.

When trans people harp on how little another trans person tries to conform to that aesthetic stereotype it's all the sadder because the people they're trying to please wouldn't accept them in the first place. Even worse if they're using what privilege they do have to 'pass' to punch down on those that don't,

If one tears down a transwoman because they don't 'pass' they're at least as much an ******* as someone who tears down tomboys or so-called butch lesbians. Transwomen don't owe anyone makeup, dresses or boobs.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Incidentally, I think 'pink brains' and 'blue brains' is bs. Studies comparing the so called feminine brain are studying adult female socialized brains, with a lot of traits not existing in young children (in fact its very difficult for neurologists to tell the difference between brain scans of girls and boys reliably). Which means it's learned, or at least formed by both environment, aptitude and interest, and not innate. It's very much a trans version of the hunt for the gay gene, trying to make oversimplified arguments to the origin of trans identities, instead of the much more likely mixture of biological, sociological and cultural reasons.

Nature vs nurture is rarely a helpful debate to be having when there is never any clear distinct lines between the two.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think you know exactly what I'm asking.

Yeah, that must be why I asked what you're talking about.

I answered your question: ("How can a doctor diagnosis something that only exists in the mind?") by explaining that mental health professionals do that. And asked if you've ever heard of the field of psychology.

Your response, "Where are you getting the information that someone is required to have a psychiatric evaluation before going in a certain restroom?" is silly. But I think you already knew that.