Mat-Su bans transgender students from bathrooms that match their gender identity

[Callisto]

You don't think 'feel better about themselves' isn't hugely informed by cultural aesthetics including cultural perceptions on what it means to look female or look male and toxic media constantly pushing narrow and often unhealthy standards for men and women to be attractive and accepted?

The harmful thing isn't having a personal or even cultural aesthetic. The harmful thing is pressuring other people to fulfill that aesthetic out of some bull**** sense of obligation. I.e. 'real' cis or trans women wear makeup or 'real' cis or trans women wear dresses.

Feeling better about one's self can be based on cultural aesthetics but it's not always, as evidenced by many who happily do their own thing. The average person is more influenced by their environment and finances. If you're a working class person, male or female, you're not obsessing over designer clothes or expensive toiletries. Most average people don't read fashion magazines/blogs nor concern themselves with "toxic media constantly pushing narrow and often unhealthy standards". Most people are more preoccupied with real life stress and obligations. Being clean and presentable constitutes the widespread standard average people live by. You're buying your clothes on sale at a large retailer or the occasional outlet not at a boutique, much less stressing over whether something's "in" this season or so last year. You're fine with buying your unisex gallon of shampoo and body wash for $20 on Amazon, you're not peeing away $100-200 on 8 oz of either for something a Kardashian was payed to hawk.

It's the idle and addled who are far more commonly influenced by the media and internet influencers. The average person has real-world life issues to be preoccupied with and to spend their money on.

When trans people harp on how little another trans person tries to conform to that aesthetic stereotype it's all the sadder because the people they're trying to please wouldn't accept them in the first place. Even worse if they're using what privilege they do have to 'pass' to punch down on those that don't,

If one tears down a transwoman because they don't 'pass' they're at least as much an ******* as someone who tears down tomboys or so-called butch lesbians. Transwomen don't owe anyone makeup, dresses or boobs.

So what exactly is a man or a woman when there is no indication of how they gender identify? Humans recognize one vs the other visually. That's just instinctual and no amount of activism is going to rewrite 300,000 years. Trans people feel they're other than their biological sex which means they feel they're drawn to the same aesthestics of their desired gender. "I was more interested in dolls than my own toys"; "I was more comfortable trying on my sister's clothes than my own clothes". "I like how I feel when I try makeup or wear a wig". Plus there's the simple fact that no one is ever going to assume some male presenting biological male identifies as female and it's unrealistic to think otherwise.

"Real cis women" are not obligated to wear makeup or dresses, either. It's simply a fact that most biological women are obviously female. In fact, many women prefer "the natural look" and even (cis) men are known to find that attractive as well. During different eras, clothing and styles typically reflected the current etiquette which is not static. Women haven't been expected to wear heels and dresses with their hair freshly coiffed since the days of Donna Reed just as men aren't expected to wear a suit and tie with a fedora. Even on special occasions, women's dresses is optional. I do get that some transgender women feel the need to go that extra distance of chic dresses and loads of makeup. It helps with how they identify plus for many, they can't do "the natural look" and expect to be deemed female, especially if they've not opted for hormonal or medical treatments.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Feeling better about one's self can be based on cultural aesthetics but it's not always, as evidenced by many who happily do their own thing. The average person is more influenced by their environment and finances. If you're a working class person, male or female, you're not obsessing over designer clothes or expensive toiletries. Most average people don't read fashion magazines/blogs nor concern themselves with "toxic media constantly pushing narrow and often unhealthy standards". Most people are more preoccupied with real life stress and obligations. Being clean and presentable constitutes the widespread standard average people live by. You're buying your clothes on sale at a large retailer or the occasional outlet not at a boutique, much less stressing over whether something's "in" this season or so last year. You're fine with buying your unisex gallon of shampoo and body wash for $20 on Amazon, you're not peeing away $100-200 on 8 oz of either for something a Kardashian was payed to hawk.

That classism exists and parts of beauty standards are gatekept behind wealth doesn't change that there are pressures of beauty standards on every class.
A working class person might feel like a hundred dollar tshirt is unreasonable (unless acquired second hand from thrifting) but still look down on people buying their clothing and makeup from Walmart or target.

And there are certainly armies of workong class men with videos about how upset they when women don't 'put themselves together' to their standards. And likewise armies of women who've bought in who think it's a woman's responsibility to wear makeup and heels, sexy clothing etc for their man.

These might not be 'real life' stresses *to you* but it absolutely exists in the mind of the average person especially here in the US, even if they've chosen to shirk off societys beauty standards that doesn’t mean its never going to impact them.

It's the idle and addled who are far more commonly influenced by the media and internet influencers. The average person has real-world life issues to be preoccupied with and to spend their money on.

Pretty judgy.

So what exactly is a man or a woman when there is no indication of how they gender identify? Humans recognize one vs the other visually. That's just instinctual and no amount of activism is going to rewrite 300,000 years. Trans people feel they're other than their biological sex which means they feel they're drawn to the same aesthestics of their desired gender. "I was more interested in dolls than my own toys"; "I was more comfortable trying on my sister's clothes than my own clothes". "I like how I feel when I try makeup or wear a wig". Plus there's the simple fact that no one is ever going to assume some male presenting biological male identifies as female and it's unrealistic to think otherwise.

I never said there were no biological indicators of sex, but that there are no biological indicators of gender and what cis and trans people behaviorally signify with dress and makeup is not a biological but a cultural paradigm. And not an unimportant one. They dress the way they're expected to dress to give the 'correct' (no such thing) signifiers for gender.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to meet those cultural gender expectations but harping on people that don't (which absolutely exists and especially for women whether you see it or not) in order to be considered 'validly' that gender is toxic as hell.

So if I see a trans or cis person telling another trans or cis person that they're a woman so they should wear a dress or makeup I'm going to tell them to stop being an arse.

"Real cis women" are not obligated to wear makeup or dresses, either. It's simply a fact that most biological women are obviously female. In fact, many women prefer "the natural look" and even (cis) men are known to find that attractive as well. During different eras, clothing and styles typically reflected the current etiquette which is not static. Women haven't been expected to wear heels and dresses with their hair freshly coiffed since the days of Donna Reed just as men aren't expected to wear a suit and tie with a fedora. Even on special occasions, women's dresses is optional. I do get that some transgender women feel the need to go that extra distance of chic dresses and loads of makeup. It helps with how they identify plus for many, they can't do "the natural look" and expect to be deemed female, especially if they've not opted for hormonal or medical treatments.

There are absolutely large numbers of people in this world that expect women to dress in dresses and heels and makeup. Especially in religious and business function. But also just like randos in the street will tell you that you should wear more makeup or pretty dresses, and smile pretty for them. (There are also prudes who will yell the exact opposite so women really can't win in this scenario.)

Anyway, all this to say that transwomen don't owe anyone dresses and makeup to be transwomen, call themselves women, or ask that their correct pronouns be used even if you made a mistake based on your cultural conditioning.
Not all trans people can or want to go on hormones for various reasons, and both cis and transwomen still don't want to wear tight fitting clothing or long hair so you can feel assured you can clock correctly.

 

[Callisto]

That classism exists and parts of beauty standards are gatekept behind wealth doesn't change that there are pressures of beauty standards on every class.
A working class person might feel like a hundred dollar tshirt is unreasonable (unless acquired second hand from thrifting) but still look down on people buying their clothing and makeup from Walmart or target.

And there are certainly armies of workong class men with videos about how upset they when women don't 'put themselves together' to their standards. And likewise armies of women who've bought in who think it's a woman's responsibility to wear makeup and heels, sexy clothing etc for their man.

These might not be 'real life' stresses *to you* but it absolutely exists in the mind of the average person especially here in the US, even if they've chosen to shirk off societys beauty standards that doesn’t mean its never going to impact them.

So you're arguing the average person lives and dies by social trends and in fear of what someone else likes or demands? If what some guy thinks is stressing out a woman (or vice versa), then they need to reevaluate their priorities and maybe work on their sense of self-worth because that's a pretty shallow thing to be stressed out about. I can see maybe if someone's a teen as that's a tumultuous time for anyone, that's fair but something they'll (should) grow out of. Most average persons I've encountered may look at the latest trends but rarely occupy themselves with coveting them or going out of their way to attain them. Working people tend to have far bigger matters to stress about than whether they have the latest trend.

I'm a grown woman and partners have never been a problem. If some guy didn't think my clothes are revealing enough, pricey enough or whatever or preferred I wore more makeup that's his problem, not mine. At best, I'd laugh at him; at worse, I'd be quite happy to point to issues with his appearance. Anyone that pathetic is not enough to get with me in the first place.

Pretty judgy.

Said the person who just wrote about it presumably normal for people to stress over how other people think they should appear. smh


Cultural paradigms are based on biological sex. So yes, there are biological indicators for gender within society. And whether a trans person seeks medical procedures or not, they adjust their appearance to equate being recognized as their preferred gender.

So if I see a trans or cis person telling another trans or cis person that they're a woman so they should wear a dress or makeup I'm going to tell them to stop being an arse.

When does that ever happen? Seriously. I have several friends in the LGBTQIA+ community and I cannot ever recall ever being anywhere when that happened nor had someone tell me that someone said something like that to them or that someone they knew was accosted in such a way. It's not even typical for cis-women are told to wear a dress or wear makeup. Generally, either a person is accepting of trans persons or they're not and if they're the latter, they don't care how made up the trans person is.

There are absolutely large numbers of people in this world that expect women to dress in dresses and heels and makeup. Especially in religious and business function. But also just like randos in the street will tell you that you should wear more makeup or pretty dresses, and smile pretty for them. (There are also prudes who will yell the exact opposite so women really can't win in this scenario.)

If you're talking about fundamentalist-type groups and/or certain non-Western societies, sure. Generally, though, that's not typically true. Fifty years ago, a woman was expected to wear dresses or skirts in a business setting, that's not the case now just like men are no longer expected to wear 3-piece suits.

Anyway, all this to say that transwomen don't owe anyone dresses and makeup to be transwomen, call themselves women, or ask that their correct pronouns be used even if you made a mistake based on your cultural conditioning.

Not all trans people can or want to go on hormones for various reasons, and both cis and transwomen still don't want to wear tight fitting clothing or long hair so you can feel assured you can clock correctly.

As I said before, no one is expecting a trans woman to wear dresses or even makeup. The point was no one is going to assume someone who is a biological male and still presents as male somehow identifies as a woman. And that transwomen do endeavor to present as women regardless of whether they seek any medical treatments. When a friend & business associate began her transition, she continued to go by he for the longest while and only myself and a couple of others knew she was transgender. Sometime in, "he" grew his hair long and began getting manicures, though wore no makeup, and still wore men's clothes. And was fine with he/him pronouns. Eventually, others were informed, her attire evolved too and at that point, when someone used "he', she didn't take offense, there are far more important things in life. Quite probably others may have talked smack privately amongst themselves (I was the only cis-woman, she was the only transwoman), but they knew better than to say anything directly. I could not have cared less if they did, she likely didn't either.

Ultimately, she began presenting as female and changed her name. Trans persons do endeavor to present as their gender regardless of whether they pursue medical procedures.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's the idle and addled who are far more commonly influenced by the media and internet influencers. The average person has real-world life issues to be preoccupied with and to spend their money on.

Even the Amish do not 100% escape this. I don't even fully get away from it because it's on ads in stores, its on TV, its played on the radio, it's on billboards, magazine covers, other people. This is just basic media literacy and awareness, basic psychology, and current issues that is leading to destruction and death (it's probably going to get much worse for men before too much longer).
Those who deny this and are unaware are usually the most influenced, often still look like a box store or mall clothing store dressed them, and often claiming they are unique. But how can you be unique if you are blind to what affects you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They dress the way they're expected to dress to give the 'correct' (no such thing) signifiers for gender.

What if it's just how I want to dress? I don't have to put on a dress, for example, to get ma'amed. It's happened countless time in men's clothing. I did accessorize my favorite dress to downplay my shoulders, but I wear and like it because I like it. Granted it's probably also being driven by partaking in and enjoying what others denied to me and then I denied myself, but I enjoy putting on makeup and like what it does. I have my hair long because that too I like and I enjoy the compliments I get.
If I were concerned with how I'm supposed to correctly dress I probably wouldn't have even painted my fingernails the first time. But I did, and it wasn't done with concern regarding how others would interpret it and think of it. I just wanted to do it, I did it, and liked that one so much I learned you can have nail polish on too much and too long when my nails got brittle and started breaking, snapping, cracking and flaking easily.