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Mathematical Proof of God?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That is very interesting, but you are not following the conversation

All I am saying is that cause and effect can be simultaneous events, and that this is true regardless if you think that the universe is eternal or if the universe had a beginning

True, cause and effect may be simultaneous, but that does not remotely answer my posts and your assertions based on a strict non-scientific Biblical agenda and the failure to respond to my posts.

Again, again and again . . . there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that our universe or our physical existence had a beginning.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The KCA concludes that the universe had a cause and that the cause has to be timeless, immaterial space less, and personal that may or may not be intelligent

The scientific evidence concludes that the possible objective verifiable cause of our universe and all possible universes are the timeless boundless Quantum World based on the sound science of Quantum Mechanics.



Something timeless space less immaterial and personal sounds a lot like God, but strictly speaking it doesn’t follow

Then the objectively based Quantum World based on Quantum Mechanics is a lot like God.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Somehow?!?!?! So circular it bites you in the butt. There is absolutely no evidence that our physical existence began to exist.

Natural Laws and natural processes observed by science adequately describe the nature and possible origins of our universe and physical existence without the necessity of an alternate hypothetical 'Cause.'
We both @TagliatelliMonster and I agree that someone how the universe came to be

Feel free to prove us wrong
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
True, cause and effect may be simultaneous, but that does not remotely answer my posts .
Of course not, because your post are based on straw man claims that have nothing to do with the original conversation

All I am saying (in this context) is that cause and effect can be simultaneous and you agree, so end of discussion
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
We both @TagliatelliMonster and I agree that someone how the universe came to be

Feel free to prove us wrong

There is no proof either way. Without any evidence of either way presented I disagree with both @TagliatelliMonster and you.

Neither of you has presented any evidence to support that our universe or our physical existence had a beginning considering the many alternative sound scientific hypotheses concerning the nature and origin of our universe.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Of course not, because your post are based on straw man claims that have nothing to do with the original conversation

All I am saying (in this context) is that cause and effect can be simultaneous and you agree, so end of discussion

No end to the discussion. Saying the cause and effect may be simultaneous means nothing without an explanation as to what you mean. Failure to respond is your modus operandi
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Hi lliMonster, appreciate your imput.
Just pointing out: a multi-verse is not so much a hypothesis as it is a prediction from other theories / hypothesis.
This don't seem quite right. For instance, the "Many-Worlds" interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is just that...an interpretation of quantum mechanical results. Not a prediction of what results we should expect from quantum mechanics. The results we have and some of them are problematic and weren't predicted. Specifically problems of measurement. The interpretation is an attempt to resolve the problems.
Quantum mechanics didn't predict the multiverse. The multiverse is an attempt (an interpretation) at resolving the results quantum mechanics seem to give us.

It is not some idea that some physicist came up with.
Actually in this case it is.
String theory as well and inflationary cosmology. It may be argued that all three of these popular theories involving a multiverse are interpretations of observations not inevitable outcomes of mathematical certainty. As a matter of fact, the proposition of including multiverses or worlds only increases the probabilistic complexities of the theory with undetectable, untestable, assumptions.

it's something that is suggested / predicted by actual theories that deal with the universe. Like inflation theory.
You cannot make a meaningful prediction about something that is untestable and or unverifiable... of which those same theories mathematics show is the case. You might make a claim like, my theory claims that because A may be true then B is inevitably the case since A requires B to be true.
The problem is none of the theories prove A to be true by proving all other cases to be false

To put it in extremely simplistic terms...
I'm not sure if this is meant to be an insult or not? Lol...I'll assume not since there are virtues with simplicity in my estimation.

Consider the following.

We have a theory that says that A is bigger then B and B is bigger then C.
Suppose we have no way of testing / measuring if A is bigger or smaller then C.
Nevertheless, from the theory a prediction naturally flows that A should be bigger then C.
"A > C" would be the equivalent of the multi-verse.
Not directly testable, but if the theory about A >B and B > C is correct, then it follows that A > C.
I think there's a flaw in your logic.
As I see it, If A is bigger than B then A and B have to be falsifiable in their relationship. In other words A has to be demonstrably bigger than B and B smaller than A. In the same manner to demonstrate that C is smaller than B and B larger than C the proposition would have to be falsifiable. And in order to connect A to C as a logical outcome of larger to smaller the aforementioned relationship between B and C would have to be established since the relationship of C to A cannot be established directly.
The problem is that C's relationship to B and therefore to A as well is unfalsifiable. We cant measure C to see how big it is or test C to see if it is even predictably relatable to either A or B....to put it in simplistic terms. lol

."Reality is not what you perceive it to be. Instead, it's what the tools and methods of science reveal." ~Neil DeGrass Tyson
As I see it...The tools and methods of science only reveal what we perceive reality to be. Not what reality is.
 

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Most religions claim to be peaceful, that it's all about love etc..,
This is one thing that attracted me to Christianity as a faith. It never claimed to be peaceful. It claims to describe the ideal which consists of being at peace. Christ said he didn't come to bring peace but strife and hardship. That as an inevitable outcome of his preaching the ideal.
Now...let the complaints begin....lol
 

Kharisym

Member
The KCA concludes that the universe had a cause and that the cause has to be timeless, immaterial space less, and personal that may or may not be intelligent


Something timeless space less immaterial and personal sounds a lot like God, but strictly speaking it doesn’t follow

Eh, I may have missed your definition and argument for personal, so I dunno that'd be pertinent to my claims. With that said, all definitions of a god that I've seen involve some level of intelligence whether animal, human, or human+. If it doesn't possess intelligence, then I'd call it a force instead. This is actually an end point of these discussions I reach a fair bit--where the question becomes whether a non-intelligent creative thing is a god or not. We could argue that if you like?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The scientific evidence concludes that the possible objective verifiable cause of our universe and all possible universes are the timeless boundless Quantum World based on the sound science of Quantum Mechanics.





Then the objectively based Quantum World based on Quantum Mechanics is a lot like God.
Quantum mechanics is ether random or deterministic (depending on what’s your favorite interpretation on QM)

God is personal (with libertarian free will)

So there is an important difference

If there was a timeless quantum era then it remains inexplicable why our universe began to exist 14B years ago // if the quantum era is timeless (permanent) then it would have collapsed an infinite amount of time ago, and the Big bang would have occurred in infinite amount of time ago
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Eh, I may have missed your definition and argument for personal, so I dunno that'd be pertinent to my claims. With that said, all definitions of a god that I've seen involve some level of intelligence whether animal, human, or human+. If it doesn't possess intelligence, then I'd call it a force instead. This is actually an end point of these discussions I reach a fair bit--where the question becomes whether a non-intelligent creative thing is a god or not. We could argue that if you like?
I agree a non intelligent being wouldn’t be a God , but the KCA doesn’t say that the being is not intelligent, it simply doesn’t say anything about the intellect of the being.
 

Kharisym

Member
I agree a non intelligent being wouldn’t be a God , but the KCA doesn’t say that the being is not intelligent, it simply doesn’t say anything about the intellect of the being.

Works for me. I'll leave you and Shunyadragon to it so I'm not a distraction.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No end to the discussion. Saying the cause and effect may be simultaneous means nothing without an explanation as to what you mean. Failure to respond is your modus operandi
It simply means that there is no time between the cause and the effect , both occurred at the same time

Again you agree with this so what are you arguing for?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Hi lliMonster, appreciate your imput.

This don't seem quite right. For instance, the "Many-Worlds" interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is just that...an interpretation of quantum mechanical results. Not a prediction of what results we should expect from quantum mechanics. The results we have and some of them are problematic and weren't predicted. Specifically problems of measurement. The interpretation is an attempt to resolve the problems.
Quantum mechanics didn't predict the multiverse. The multiverse is an attempt (an interpretation) at resolving the results quantum mechanics seem to give us.

I didn't speak about that. The example I gave was inflation theory.
As for the many-worlds interpretation,... I'ld call that an indirect prediction.
It's still not a hypothesis that exists on its own. Instead, it's quantum mechanics itself that "suggests" a multi-verse as plausible, since that resolves certain problems it has.

And it's not patchwork either, since quantum mechanics is very real.
String theory is another story in that respect. String theory is no more or less then a math model that attempts to marry models that seem rather incompatible.

As Lawrence Krauss once put it: "At present this is untestable. And until it is, I'ld say it's no more or less then intellectual masturbation". :D

Actually in this case it is.

It's not. It's an idea physicist have been driven to.
Some of them, kicking and screaming.
Many don't like the multi-verse model because they would prefer something simpler and more elegant. They don't like the fact that assuming it, resolves those issues in quantum mechanics.

But it is what it is.


String theory as well and inflationary cosmology. It may be argued that all three of these popular theories involving a multiverse are interpretations of observations not inevitable outcomes of mathematical certainty.

No theory is a "mathematical certainty".

As a matter of fact, the proposition of including multiverses or worlds only increases the probabilistic complexities of the theory with undetectable, untestable, assumptions.

No. It rather is a case of "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... maybe you should consider the idea that it actually is a duck..."

You cannot make a meaningful prediction about something that is untestable and or unverifiable...

I just explained to you with an overly simplified analogy how that isn't true.
If you have a theory that makes 20 predictions, 19 of which are testable and 1 isn't, and all the 19 predictions check out when tested, then it's not unreasonable to assume that untestable prediction nr 20 is at least extremely plausible.

You might make a claim like, my theory claims that because A may be true then B is inevitably the case since A requires B to be true.
The problem is none of the theories prove A to be true by proving all other cases to be false

It rather is a case of having theory A that makes predictions X, Y and Z while only Z is untestable.
If A is actually correct, then X, Y and Z are also the case.

Since in science a theory can not be "proven", only supported... one would have to support it by succesfully testing the predictions. In this case, that would be X and Y.
If they check out, we call the theory confirmed / likely / plausible. Which makes Z confirmed / likely / plausible by extension.


I'm not sure if this is meant to be an insult or not?

Not at all.

We are dealing with extremely spooky, unintuitive and complex issues.
To get to the crux of the point, it is always a good idea to oversimplify it with an analogy to get the point accross.

Not an insult at all. Just an attempt at making the point very clear.

I think there's a flaw in your logic.
As I see it, If A is bigger than B then A and B have to be falsifiable in their relationship. In other words A has to be demonstrably bigger than B and B smaller than A. In the same manner to demonstrate that C is smaller than B and B larger than C the proposition would have to be falsifiable. And in order to connect A to C as a logical outcome of larger to smaller the aforementioned relationship between B and C would have to be established since the relationship of C to A cannot be established directly.
The problem is that C's relationship to B and therefore to A as well is unfalsifiable. We cant measure C to see how big it is or test C to see if it is even predictably relatable to either A or B....to put it in simplistic terms. lol

Sorry, I'm not going to start debating an analogy to the point where it loses all meaning.
Clearly my overly simplistic analogy failed to miss the mark.
Nevermind. I think I made it clear above anyway what I mean.


."Reality is not what you perceive it to be. Instead, it's what the tools and methods of science reveal." ~Neil DeGrass Tyson
As I see it...The tools and methods of science only reveal what we perceive reality to be. Not what reality is.

You are wrong about that.
We don't perceive radioactivity.
We don't perceive infra red.
We don't perceive relativity of time.
We don't perceive quantum mechanics.
We don't perceive particle physics.
We don't perceive magnetic fields.
Etc.

None of these things would be known to us if it wasn't for the tools and methods of science.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
We both @TagliatelliMonster and I agree that someone how the universe came to be

Feel free to prove us wrong

Please don't speak in my name.
When I say that the universe came to be somehow, then I don't mean what you would like it to mean.

What I actually mean is that expansion / inflation of the space-time continuum started at T = 0.
Or at least, that's what it looks like. We don't know for sure since we can't go back further then Planck time. All of physics breaks down "beyond" that point.

I'm not going to pretend to understand it. If memory serves me right, I think that if you try to go further back in the model, you end up dividing by zero or something making you end up in lala-land. :)

So when I say that the universe came to be, what I'm referring to is the beginning of the big bang. Inflation / expansion. The start of time and space itself.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Violations to the NS that have no known explanation have been found,

Examples por favor.

Just for clarification my 2 claims are

1 a theory / hypothesis/ model etc. can be solid good and scientifically valid even if it´s not falsifiable

Obviously false.
Unfalsifiable models can't be tested or confirmed.
Testability is requirement numero uno for any scientific idea.

2 I used evolution (universal common ancestry) as an example

And in the process, you once again exposed your ignorance on the subject.

So there you are, and other example of something unfalisible that is based on solid and valid evidence

Negative claims are useless.
Scientific models aren't centered on negative claims.

And I explained how it could be falsified anyway. Funny how you blatantly ignored that part and just repeated the claim that has just been dealt with in the ignored part.

Epitome of intellectual dishonesty.
Always the same with you.

Why do I even bother replying....

Negative claims are usually unfalsifiable, but that doesnt mean that they aren´t good valid scientific hypothesis

Again, hypothesis are supposed to present positive cases, not negative ones.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Again both paternity tests and nested hierarchies are both based on pretty solid science but they are not the same, nor do they follow the same principles.

They follow the exact same principle.
It's a very easy principle.

Are you ready for it?
Here it comes....


DNA is inherited by off spring.

:rolleyes:

Yes. It really is that simple.

Paternity tests are based on direct observation and direct experiments, we know on average, how many genetic markers should father and son share.

And the reason they share them is the same reason as why entire gene sequences are shared between related species. Because off spring inherits the DNA of its parents.


Paternity tests work because we have seen many individuals that are known to be father and son and many individuals that are known to be strangers


LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Ow boy.


NS hierchies is just a tree pattern that live tends to follow,

Because DNA is inherited by off spring.
Nested hierarchies are the inevitable result of that simple fact.

and common ancestry is the best explanation for that pattern.

False. Rather: it's a CONCLUSION.

DNA is inherited by off spring.
Nested hierarchies are the inevitable result if ancestry is shared.
Nested hierarchies are observed => therefor ancestry is shared
.



A mammal with feathers would count as evidence against common ancestry,

Yes. That would be a blatant violation of the entire process.

but it would do nothing to refute paternity tests, these things are not related

That's just more denialism on your end.
If mammals with feathers were common, then we never would have gotten to this point with evolutionary knowledge and understanding of genetics. Then there wouldn't be any patterns of nested hierarchies and it wouldn't just be mammals with feathers. It would also be things like reptiles with hair, amphibians with mammary glands, rabbit fossils in pre-cambrian strata, crockodiles with inner ear bones, etc.

Your silly hypothetical simply does not hold

In that case, nothing in genetics would make any sense and DNA testing would be unreliable.

The only reason why this isn't so, is because DNA is inherited by off spring.
This inevitably leads to nested hierarchies as a pattern of shared DNA

Are you going to admit your mistake, or are we going to have a 100 pages long conversation of circular arguments that get us nowhere.

tenor.gif
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
In this context Caused and Came to be somehow are synomimous they mean the same thing

They are not.
The KCA requires events to have a cause.
It falls apart without that assumption.
An uncaused event does not require a cause.

If you what we can reformulate the KCA

1 Whatever begins to exist came to be some how

2 the universe (space time) began to exist

3 therefore the universe begin to exist some how

Congratulations. You have no rendered KCA into a meaningless tautology.
Things that exist, exist.
X exists.
Therefor it exists.


/facepalm.

Given that your understanding of cause is different from mine, and that I don’t understand your definition, I don’t know

What's there not to understand?
Causes happen before effects.
Effects occur after the cause.

It's a sequential temporal phenomenon, that requires the space-time continuum to exist in order to occur.
Causality is part of the universe as much as stellar formation is.

But I am ok with “therefore the universe came to be somehow” weather if you what to call it cause or give it an other label is irrelevant

So you are fine with an uncaused universe?

Cool.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That is very interesting, but you are not following the conversation

All I am saying is that cause and effect can be simultaneous events, and that this is true regardless if you think that the universe is eternal or if the universe had a beginning

You keep claiming that.
I keep asking for real-world examples.

None are forthcoming.
 
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