Matthew 11:12

[firedragon]

From what I read, according to the greek alone, it could go either way, as the doer or the receiver. Although I'm inclined to believe you, hadn't seen evidence to sway it one way or the other until last night.
"From the day of John the Baptist until now..."
In the "now" Jesus was speaking of, John was in prison, so "From the day of John the Baptist until now...", would likely refer to before John was in prison until now and likely back to the days when John had begun to preach.
Starting back in those days there was no violence or raids against John, or the kingdom of Heaven. Now there was the whole incident with Herod at Jesus's birth and toward the beginning of Jesus's ministry when the people tried to throw Jesus off a cliff Luke 4:29,
But Jesus said "From the day of John the Baptist until now...". There wasn't violence in the days of John the Baptist.
This leads me to to believe in the second translation

Matthew 11:12 "From the day of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay ahold of it."

There was no suffering violence back then but there were forceful men, beginning with John.

This also agrees with your post and most who have posted here.

Your thoughts please. Thank you.

You are right.

Basically, the Kingdom of heaven, which is the Good News that Jesus was preaching has been advancing and those who are pushing it forward will have a hold of it, or rather take it which means they will save it and/or be saved.

Violence is of no question here on the face of the verse because its talking of the Kingdom of Heaven. Even the word Biazetai doesn't mean violence unless you are talking of a war or dual, rather it means aggressively pushing.

I was aggressive at building the bridge vs. I was aggressive in the war against the martians.

Peace.

 

[e.r.m.]

You are right.

Basically, the Kingdom of heaven, which is the Good News that Jesus was preaching has been advancing and those who are pushing it forward will have a hold of it, or rather take it which means they will save it and/or be saved.

Violence is of no question here on the face of the verse because its talking of the Kingdom of Heaven. Even the word Biazetai doesn't mean violence unless you are talking of a war or dual, rather it means aggressively pushing.

I was aggressive at building the bridge vs. I was aggressive in the war against the martians.

Peace.

Thank you firedragon

 

[sincerly]

Luke16:15-17 answers your question this way.
"""And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

[e.r.m.]

Luke16:15-17 answers your question this way.
"""And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Thank you Sincerly,
A friend shared that with me. But then I realized that is comes from the same greek phrase as Matthew 11:12. So the context above became the deciding factor.

 

[Sleeppy]

Both.

 

[sincerly]

Thank you Sincerly,
A friend shared that with me. But then I realized that is comes from the same greek phrase as Matthew 11:12. So the context above became the deciding factor.

The Scriptures as written by those(Luke) under the influence of the Holy Spirit reveals the Truths of GOD when one seeks the Truth.

 

[e.r.m.]

The Scriptures as written by those(Luke) under the influence of the Holy Spirit reveals the Truths of GOD when one seeks the Truth.

Agreed. But he wrote it in greek, which lends itself to two english translations. Of course Jesus only meant one of them. To know which one, we need more than just the greek. Context is important.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
The Scriptures as written by those(Luke) under the influence of the Holy Spirit reveals the Truths of GOD when one seeks the Truth.

Agreed. But he wrote it in greek, which lends itself to two english translations. Of course Jesus only meant one of them. To know which one, we need more than just the greek. Context is important.

Matt.11;12 is not contrary to Luke as you can see by context of Luke and with reading Matthew's account in the style/words used. Remember, the message is inspired---NOT the verbiage used to deliver it.

Didn't Jesus have a constant battle with the Scribes and Pharisees as well as the Priest/fathers to advance the messages HE received from the Father to the People? Yes.

 

[e.r.m.]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
The Scriptures as written by those(Luke) under the influence of the Holy Spirit reveals the Truths of GOD when one seeks the Truth.

Matt.11;12 is not contrary to Luke as you can see by context of Luke and with reading Matthew's account in the style/words used. Remember, the message is inspired---NOT the verbiage used to deliver it.

Didn't Jesus have a constant battle with the Scribes and Pharisees as well as the Priest/fathers to advance the messages HE received from the Father to the People? Yes.

Both Matthew's and Luke's account could be translated in either direction. As you said, it's the context that makes it clear.

 

[sincerly]

Both Matthew's and Luke's account could be translated in either direction. As you said, it's the context that makes it clear.

Luke and Matthew we NOT adversaries in the delivering of the everlasting Gospel. The message will always be the same---Since GOD is not a GOD of confusion.

 

[e.r.m.]

Luke and Matthew we NOT adversaries in the delivering of the everlasting Gospel. The message will always be the same---Since GOD is not a GOD of confusion.

Yes, either both said
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the
kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,
and violent people have been raiding it.

Or as

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the
kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing
and forceful men lay ahold of it.

Matthew and Luke both give the same message, but we don't know which of the two messages they gave. The context tells us which of two messages they were both giving. Do you understand at least this concept, even if you don't agree with it?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Luke and Matthew we NOT adversaries in the delivering of the everlasting Gospel. The message will always be the same---Since GOD is not a GOD of confusion.

Yes, either both said
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the
kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,
and violent people have been raiding it.

Or as

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the
kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing
and forceful men lay ahold of it.

Matthew and Luke both give the same message, but we don't know which of the two messages they gave. The context tells us which of two messages they were both giving. Do you understand at least this concept, even if you don't agree with it?

It seems you are using different translations of Matt.11:12 for comparison.
Here is the KJV of both Matt.11:12, "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force".

AND Luke 16:16, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

e.r.m., The same message(truth) is expressed, but from a different angle/point of view.
Matthew was expressing the Persecution all who follow Jesus would suffer for seeking to be a part of the Kingdom of GOD; and if it were possible they(the violent) would take it by force.
Luke is expressing that all that hear and obey the Message want to obtain the kingdom at all costs to themselves.

 

[Thief]

Yes, either both said
From the days of John the Baptist until now, the
kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,
and violent people have been raiding it.

Or as

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the
kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing
and forceful men lay ahold of it.

Matthew and Luke both give the same message, but we don't know which of the two messages they gave. The context tells us which of two messages they were both giving. Do you understand at least this concept, even if you don't agree with it?

The first item holds the kingdom is degrade.
Violent people hold the territory.

The second item has the kingdom held by those who will do whatever is needed to push the territorial boundaries.

Either way....if you believe the people of the kingdom are willing to do violence.....
what kind of peace do you anticipate?

OR....was the statement made as observation?
with some with hidden notion that such people should NOT have position there?

So it is written.....'and the Lord shall sweep and garnish His floor'.

The dust will be swept out the Door.
It won't matter the color or kind of dust it may be.

and the words....'I never knew you'.....echo once more.

 

[e.r.m.]

Thief and Sincerly,
I must make a correction. I realized that I made an an error and apologize. It appears that I assumed the greek in Matthew 11:12 and Luke 16:16 were the same. I looked them up and found they are very different. Therefore Luke 16:16 definitely sheds light on Matthew 11:12.

 

[sincerly]

Thief and Sincerly,
I must make a correction. I realized that I made an an error and apologize. It appears that I assumed the greek in Matthew 11:12 and Luke 16:16 were the same. I looked them up and found they are very different. Therefore Luke 16:16 definitely sheds light on Matthew 11:12.

No apology necessary. The Scriptures just explain and validate each other.

 

[Thief]

No apology necessary. The Scriptures just explain and validate each other.

I have never thought so.

Comparison studies of one gospel to another and the reports vary.

Many people drop the wisdom portion assuming the disparity negates the grace.

I look for the grace.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
No apology necessary. The Scriptures just explain and validate each other.

I have never thought so.

Comparison studies of one gospel to another and the reports vary.

Many people drop the wisdom portion assuming the disparity negates the grace.

And hence, the disparity seen between Matthew's 11:12 and Luke's16:16
reports. The assuming that all writers of the Scriptures were producing word for word dictation from GOD rather that being given the principles of the messages. The writers then telling/writing those principles/messages in a style/manner in/to which the audience intended would understand the truth being intended. The same truths/Principles/messages to all earth's population.
After All, The Scriptures/written messages are intended for the salvation of ALL mankind who will heed the given messages.

There is no "wisdom" in "dropping" any of that which GOD has given for one's admonition/learning. The words "Search the Scriptures" and "Rightly divide the Scriptures" are heeded by the Truth seeker.

I look for the grace.

ALL look for/hope for the Grace GOD can bestow upon all of us guilty of disobedience, but that is contingent upon as Matt. 7:21-23 doing the WILL of the Father and not upon the trying to take the kingdom of GOD by force/violence.

The Scriptural way to enter into GOD'S Kingdom is by way of Acknowledging one's disobedience---repenting/and refraining of all disobedience, acknowledging Jesus Christ's death as your payment for the sin debt, submitting to the Father's WILL and then accepting the GRACE the Father bestows.

 

[Thief]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
No apology necessary. The Scriptures just explain and validate each other.

I have never thought so.

Comparison studies of one gospel to another and the reports vary.

Many people drop the wisdom portion assuming the disparity negates the grace.

And hence, the disparity seen between Matthew's 11:12 and Luke's16:16
reports. The assuming that all writers of the Scriptures were producing word for word dictation from GOD rather that being given the principles of the messages. The writers then telling/writing those principles/messages in a style/manner in/to which the audience intended would understand the truth being intended. The same truths/Principles/messages to all earth's population.
After All, The Scriptures/written messages are intended for the salvation of ALL mankind who will heed the given messages.

There is no "wisdom" in "dropping" any of that which GOD has given for one's admonition/learning. The words "Search the Scriptures" and "Rightly divide the Scriptures" are heeded by the Truth seeker.



ALL look for/hope for the Grace GOD can bestow upon all of us guilty of disobedience, but that is contingent upon as Matt. 7:21-23 doing the WILL of the Father and not upon the trying to take the kingdom of GOD by force/violence.

The Scriptural way to enter into GOD'S Kingdom is by way of Acknowledging one's disobedience---repenting/and refraining of all disobedience, acknowledging Jesus Christ's death as your payment for the sin debt, submitting to the Father's WILL and then accepting the GRACE the Father bestows.

I have never thought scripture to be the Source.

Grace is not a matter of scripture.
The devil knows the scripture.
Old testament, new testament , Koran, Talmud, works of Shakespeare, Einstein, Hubble, Kant......whatever.....

But for all that he might know.....he doesn't walk among the angelic of heaven.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It could also be a reference to spiritual violence, or what the world would consider a peaceful advance. The verses in question appear to allude to words in Exodus 19 : 6 . "...then you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation..." So possibly Jesus is saying that Exodus 19 : 6 is in the process of happening in that moment of time. Perhaps he means they are at that time becoming a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Also, with respect to his use of 'Violence', Jesus and NT writers sometimes consider peaceful methods to be a higher form of violence and its only acceptable form. For example: a martyr can win by dying, but a martyr cannot win by killing. His/her being killed is a violence against evil. The words in Jesus mouth are a sword, and the 'Weapons of our warfare are not carnal' etc.

 

[Thief]

It could also be a reference to spiritual violence, or what the world would consider a peaceful advance. The verses in question appear to allude to words in Exodus 19 : 6 . "...then you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation..." So possibly Jesus is saying that Exodus 19 : 6 is in the process of happening in that moment of time. Perhaps he means they are at that time becoming a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Also, with respect to his use of 'Violence', Jesus and NT writers sometimes consider peaceful methods to be a higher form of violence and its only acceptable form. For example: a martyr can win by dying, but a martyr cannot win by killing. His/her being killed is a violence against evil. The words in Jesus mouth are a sword, and the 'Weapons of our warfare are not carnal' etc.

Point taken....'from His mouth a double edged sword'.....so I've read.

In metaphor and then to terms....
A doubled edged sword cuts to the left and to the right.
If you stand in opposition...you will be cut.

In practice, I see it as His word spoken and the angelic obey.
If He forbids that you follow, the angels will draw line in the dust.
You will go no further.

(my sense of meaning)