Matthew 11:12

[e.r.m.]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
No apology necessary. The Scriptures just explain and validate each other.

I have never thought so.

Comparison studies of one gospel to another and the reports vary.

Many people drop the wisdom portion assuming the disparity negates the grace.

I have never thought scripture to be the Source.

Grace is not a matter of scripture.
The devil knows the scripture.
Old testament, new testament , Koran, Talmud, works of Shakespeare, Einstein, Hubble, Kant......whatever.....

But for all that he might know.....he doesn't walk among the angelic of heaven.

But Scripture is not of the devil, it's of God. We know of God's grace through scripture.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
No apology necessary. The Scriptures just explain and validate each other.

I have never thought so.

Comparison studies of one gospel to another and the reports vary.

Many people drop the wisdom portion assuming the disparity negates the grace.

I have never thought scripture to be the Source.

Grace is not a matter of scripture.
The devil knows the scripture.
Old testament, new testament , Koran, Talmud, works of Shakespeare, Einstein, Hubble, Kant......whatever.....

But for all that he might know.....he doesn't walk among the angelic of heaven.

Thief, Paul wrote (1Cor.10:6, 11), that the Scriptures were written for "our admonition" and as "examples". In that understanding, the scriptures are the method by which we get the instructions and correct principles which came from the TRUE SOURCE---GOD.

Right! The "devil" was fully instructed in the ways of GOD---and then he rebelled. He could have known the Grace of GOD, but continued in believing the rebellious ways of his imagined iniquity.(the iniquity was real, but it started in his imagination)

However, since we have no other means of being informed of GOD'S Grace or our own guilty condition than by the Scriptures, GOD Inspired those chosen Believing Men, Prophets, to give HIS Messages to speak and leave a written record for all to hear(read) and do.

 

[John Martin]

Sorry I've been away for a while. I wanted to present this question here because of the great analytical and exegetical skill the members here possess.

I'm told that Matthew 11:12 can be translated either way.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing and forceful men lay ahold of it.

What are your thoughts?

Thank you.

I feel that this text is somewhat edited. From the days of John the Baptist until now--it is not a very long time. John the Baptist was preaching and after Jesus' baptism, he also started his ministry.
The original statement might have been: from the olden days( from the days of Moses) until the days of John the Baptist,the kingdom of God has been subjected to violence and people tried to get it by force'.

From the days of Moses the spiritual life has been the life of following external Law. It is the way of becoming. It needs effort and inner struggle.It belongs to the fallen state of human beings where human beings has to live by the sweat of their brow, even then thorns and thistles will grow, good and evil will be there. Human beings want to reach perfection by effort, struggle and inner violence. This is the way of living according to the first covenant given by God to Moses. But this was not very successful. So God promised the New Covenant in which he will write the Law in the heart of the people so that there is no necessity for one person to tell others to know God. In the first covenant people will say 'the Law is the way,the truth and the life'. In the New Covenant ' a person will say, I am the way,the truth and the life'.
John the Baptist announced the end of the First Covenant and the arrival of the New Covenant. In this way he announced to the end of the way of violence and the arrival of non-violence.
Jesus Christ inaugurated the New Covenant. The life in the New Covenant is like the life in the Garden of Eden before the fall. It is freedom from effort,struggle, good and evil and becoming. It is to walk with God in the cool of the evening. It is the way of unfolding. It takes away all the spiritual burdens that people carry and gives them rest and peace-non-violence.
Jesus said,'come to me all you labour and burdened of heart I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am meek and humble of heart and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light'. Complete rest is possible at two places: at the beginning of the journey and at the end of the journey. In the New Covenant, the beginning is the end. There is no time. When Jesus began his ministry, the first statement(in Mark) he made was:the time has come to an end, the kingdom of God is here and now.

From the days of Moses until the days of John the Baptist the way to arrive at perfection, the kingdom of God, is through violence, effort, struggle and carrying burdens. It is the way of becoming, the way of psychological time, the way of the ego,the way of the fallen state.
John the Baptist announces its end and the arrival of the kingdom of God, the New Covenant, the way of nonviolence, the way of our original state.
Jesus Christ inaugurated kingdom of God, the New Covenant, the way of living from our image and likeness of God. It is the way of inner rest and peace. It is the way of unfolding. It is the way of manifesting eternity in time. The kingdom of God is here and now. It is to live in the present moment. The present is not a vehicle for the past to go the future but the present is free from the past and free from the future and becomes a vehicle of eternity. This is the way of non-voilence.

 

[sincerly]

I feel that this text is somewhat edited....

The kingdom of God is here and now. It is to live in the present moment. The present is not a vehicle for the past to go the future but the present is free from the past and free from the future and becomes a vehicle of eternity. This is the way of non-voilence.

Hi John, Consider: Jesus was just in the stages of HIS early ministry. HE had seen that the harvest(at that time of the people of Judea) was ripe.

John the Baptist had come teaching/preaching that the "Kingdom of Heaven was at hand". "Behold, the Lamb of GOD that taketh away the sins of the world."

It that connection/context what was the message Jesus had expressed and Matthew had penned.
The translation from the Greek to the English(our understanding of words can be misleading.)

The "suffer violence"---seen in Matthew" and the "press" seen in Luke are both the Greek--"biazo"
The "by force" is the Greek--"harpazo"--meaning "suffer violence; press" as is seen in the only two places the "biazo" is found in the KJV.

Therefore, the gaining of the Kingdom of Heaven is only by the most ardent struggle with self and oppositional human forces. It is the choice/claim one eagerly "presses" to obtain. Or that One "suffers violence" mentally to free itself from "worldly attachments".

 

[Brickjectivity]

In practice, I see it as His word spoken and the angelic obey.
If He forbids that you follow, the angels will draw line in the dust.
You will go no further.

(my sense of meaning)

Grokking and over thinking your lingo...you are talking about martyrdom? Very cryptic!

 

[John Martin]

Hi John, Consider: Jesus was just in the stages of HIS early ministry. HE had seen that the harvest(at that time of the people of Judea) was ripe.

John the Baptist had come teaching/preaching that the "Kingdom of Heaven was at hand". "Behold, the Lamb of GOD that taketh away the sins of the world."

It that connection/context what was the message Jesus had expressed and Matthew had penned.
The translation from the Greek to the English(our understanding of words can be misleading.)

The "suffer violence"---seen in Matthew" and the "press" seen in Luke are both the Greek--"biazo"
The "by force" is the Greek--"harpazo"--meaning "suffer violence; press" as is seen in the only two places the "biazo" is found in the KJV.

Therefore, the gaining of the Kingdom of Heaven is only by the most ardent struggle with self and oppositional human forces. It is the choice/claim one eagerly "presses" to obtain. Or that One "suffers violence" mentally to free itself from "worldly attachments".

the Kingdom of cannot be gained by the struggle,by pressing and by violence. It can only be discovered by surrendering one's ego which is really the filed of effort, struggle and violence. Where there is no ego there is no struggle.
But I have to say that first we need to make efforts in order to gain the kingdom until we discover that we cannot gain it by our effort then the surrender happens naturally and spontaneously. St.Paul said, the good which I want to do I am not able to do,the evil that I do not want to do I am forced to do. Who will help me from this situation?
When St.Paul realized that he cannot become perfect by his own effort he made a profound surrender to Christ or God. In this surrender he discovered that his salvation was the free gift from God. Salvation means discovering our image and likeness of God where God is already present. Effort, struggle, good and evil, violence belong to the level of our ego, which is our fallen state, or a state of ignorance and sin. The kingdom of God is like the Garden of Eden where one walks with God in the cool of the evening. One is naked(egoless) and not ashamed, no guilt, no good and evil. That is our original state.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Hi John, Consider: Jesus was just in the stages of HIS early ministry. HE had seen that the harvest(at that time of the people of Judea) was ripe.

John the Baptist had come teaching/preaching that the "Kingdom of Heaven was at hand". "Behold, the Lamb of GOD that taketh away the sins of the world."

In that connection/context, what was the message Jesus had expressed and Matthew had penned?
The translation from the Greek to the English(our understanding of words can be misleading.)

The "suffer violence"---seen in Matthew" and the "press" seen in Luke are both the Greek--"biazo"
The "by force" is the Greek--"harpazo"--meaning "suffer violence; press" as is seen in the only two places the "biazo" is found in the KJV.

Therefore, the gaining of the Kingdom of Heaven is only by the most ardent struggle with self (and oppositional human forces). It is the choice/claim that one eagerly "presses" to obtain. Or that One "suffers violence" mentally to free itself from "worldly attachments".

the Kingdom of cannot be gained by the struggle,by pressing and by violence. It can only be discovered by surrendering one's ego which is really the filed of effort, struggle and violence. Where there is no ego there is no struggle.

Hi john, I amended/ edited my above slightly(not the meaning). You didn't say anything that was different in principle from the above.

"Ego" is the "I", "me", "self", devoted to one's own interest.

But I have to say that first we need to make efforts in order to gain the kingdom until we discover that we cannot gain it by our effort then the surrender happens naturally and spontaneously.

Paul who you exampled is a witness that

the surrender happens naturally and spontaneously.

isn't so.
He was struck blind and dependent before he "saw the light". Most(surrendered) are told or read and "Believe". But most of those on the broad way follow "what seemeth right".(Prov.14:12)

Calamities, to others and to self, do help in the process of surrendering or hardening the "ego".

St.Paul said, the good which I want to do I am not able to do,the evil that I do not want to do I am forced to do. Who will help me from this situation?
When St.Paul realized that he cannot become perfect by his own effort he made a profound surrender to Christ or God. In this surrender he discovered that his salvation was the free gift from God. Salvation means discovering our image and likeness of God where God is already present. Effort, struggle, good and evil, violence belong to the level of our ego, which is our fallen state, or a state of ignorance and sin.

Romans 7:15(KJV), reads, "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

I don't find any translation which renders it as you have expressed. "not able to do" or "I am forced to do".
It is that "ego" which Paul is battling with---that keeps him from doing the right principles of the Decalogue which he has determined is the reason for SIN and the Death Penalty he has not found the solution for in his struggles.

Then Paul exclaims that the answer is in Jesus Christ as is seen in Rom.8:1+

The kingdom of God is like the Garden of Eden where one walks with God in the cool of the evening. One is naked(egoless) and not ashamed, no guilt, no good and evil. That is our original state.

O.K., Yes, all in that Kingdom of GOD, will be stripped of all sin/unrighteousness. However, they will all be clothed with the "Robe of Jesus Christ's Righteousness."
They will all have the "goodness" of GOD as HE has bestowed upon them.---Just as in the Edenic state of Creation.