May I Ask, What Religion Are You?

[Walter and Debbie]

I'm Jewish. My synagogue is Conservative, and so is my level of observance, but my theology is pretty liberal. My wish for the world is ethical monotheism -- there is one God, and he cares very much how we treat each other.

May I ask a question? when you say that Christians try to keep the Lord's commandments, which ones are you trying to keep? Jesus kept the 613 commandments of the Torah as understood by Oral Torah. But most Christians understand that non-Jews are not required to keep all those commandments, like you are not required to keep the sabbath like we are, and it's fine.

Good Morning, Good question, thank you.

Exodus 20

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

22 And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Mark 12:28-34

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Love, Walter

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Good Morning, Good question, thank you.

Exodus 20

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

22 And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Mark 12:28-34

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Love, Walter

Thank you for your answer.

You quoted the 10 commandments. May I ask if you keep a seventh day sabbath?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@IndigoChild5559 -

When you say “Jesus kept the 613 commandments…” you meant exactly what by the word “kept”?

Same thing it means when you say any Jew aspires to keep the commandments.

I realize it's next to impossible to know what Jesus actually did and said, as the gospel accounts mix so much legend in with history, and these non-Jewish authors had an interest in making him seem more in line with their movement. But I have been heavily influenced by Rabbi Harvey Falk's "Jesus, the Pharisee" to conclude that Jesus was most likely a typically observant Jew of his day, but more in tune with bet Hillel than bet Shammai.

 

[Walter and Debbie]

Thank you for your answer.

You quoted the 10 commandments. May I ask if you keep a seventh day sabbath?

Yes, thank you

Love, Walter

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, thank you

Love, Walter

Interesting. How do you define work? Do you refrain from cleaning your home, working in your yard, cooking? What? Just curious.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm Jewish. My synagogue is Conservative, and so is my level of observance, but my theology is pretty liberal. My wish for the world is ethical monotheism -- there is one God, and he cares very much how we treat each other.

May I ask a question? when you say that Christians try to keep the Lord's commandments, which ones are you trying to keep? Jesus kept the 613 commandments of the Torah as understood by Oral Torah. But most Christians understand that non-Jews are not required to keep all those commandments, like you are not required to keep the sabbath like we are, and it's fine.

I was just reading this post. You say that Jesus kept all 613 commandments as understood in the Oral Law? Please explain more about this. I never heard this.

 

[YoursTrue]

@IndigoChild5559 -

When you say “Jesus kept the 613 commandments…” you meant exactly what by the word “kept”?

Same question. Almost, I think.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I was just reading this post. You say that Jesus kept all 613 commandments as understood in the Oral Law? Please explain more about this. I never heard this.

Okay, thank you for your honest question.

It is the traditional understanding that the Torah (the first five books of the Bible, also known as the Books of Law) contain 613 commandments given to Israel. "And the LORD said to Moses, Speak to the children of Israel, saying..." You can learn about them by reading the Torah of course, but you can also find published lists that group the commandments into categories, such as https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments-Mitzvot.htm

Ten of these commandments were written in stone by God himself. They are known as the ten words, or ten statements. Most people know them as the ten commandments. The rest of the 613 are written in pen by Moses.

An observant Jew is someone who aspires to keep these 613 commandments, or at least those which apply to them. Some commandments are only for women. Some commandments are only for priests. You get the idea. Furthermore, you are only obliged to keep those commandments which are POSSIBLE to keep. For example, there are many commandments surrounding the various sacrifices in the temple. But right now there is no temple, and it is unlawful for a Jew to offer sacrifice anyplace else. Hosea tells us "The words of our lips (prayers) shall be as bullocks (sacrifices)." Jew today therefore say prayers in lieu of sacrifice. When the temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will resume.

Jesus was an observant Jew: he taught that "not even a brush stroke will pass away from the law until heaven and earth have passed away." When the rich man asked how to obtain eternal life, Jesus referred him to the commandments.

I'm not saying that Jesus was sinless or perfect. I'm simply saying that he aspired to obey; when he slipped up, he would have repented and returned to God's ways. The Bible says the difference between the righteous and the unrighteous is their willingness to repent:
Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again, But the wicked stumble under adversity.

In the gospels, you hear many arguments Jesus had with the Pharisees of the school of Shammai on exactly how to keep the commandments best. These sort of arguments are very much a part of Jewish tradition -- the Talmud records many of them. One should not conclude that Jesus was not behind the commandments simply because he argued over whether it is lawful to heal via prayer on the Shabbat, etc.

In addition to being behind the written Torah, Jesus was also behind Oral Torah -- the accumulated interpretations of Jewish law determined by the elders/judges/pharisees/rabbis according to Deuteronomy 17:8-13. In Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus tells his followers to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach -- that would include Oral Torah. In Matthew 23:23 Jesus instructs the Pharisees to obey the basics of Torah AS WELL AS the Oral Torah (using the Oral Torah teaching of the spice tax as an example). We also see examples of Jesus himself following oral Torah. For example, the oral law about the washing of hands was not yet settled; some Jews washed their hands before meals and others did not. Jesus chose to wash his hands before eating.

 

[Jainarayan]

I am Vaishnava Hindu. Vaishnava meaning a follower of Vishnu whom I see as God. I was Roman Catholic from birth but abandoned Christianity for Hinduism.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay, thank you for your honest question.

It is the traditional understanding that the Torah (the first five books of the Bible, also known as the Books of Law) contain 613 commandments given to Israel. "And the LORD said to Moses, Speak to the children of Israel, saying..." You can learn about them by reading the Torah of course, but you can also find published lists that group the commandments into categories, such as https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments-Mitzvot.htm

Ten of these commandments were written in stone by God himself. They are known as the ten words, or ten statements. Most people know them as the ten commandments. The rest of the 613 are written in pen by Moses.

An observant Jew is someone who aspires to keep these 613 commandments, or at least those which apply to them. Some commandments are only for women. Some commandments are only for priests. You get the idea. Furthermore, you are only obliged to keep those commandments which are POSSIBLE to keep. For example, there are many commandments surrounding the various sacrifices in the temple. But right now there is no temple, and it is unlawful for a Jew to offer sacrifice anyplace else. Hosea tells us "The words of our lips (prayers) shall be as bullocks (sacrifices)." Jew today therefore say prayers in lieu of sacrifice. When the temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will resume.

Jesus was an observant Jew: he taught that "not even a brush stroke will pass away from the law until heaven and earth have passed away." When the rich man asked how to obtain eternal life, Jesus referred him to the commandments.

I'm not saying that Jesus was sinless or perfect. I'm simply saying that he aspired to obey; when he slipped up, he would have repented and returned to God's ways. The Bible says the difference between the righteous and the unrighteous is their willingness to repent:
Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again, But the wicked stumble under adversity.

In the gospels, you hear many arguments Jesus had with the Pharisees of the school of Shammai on exactly how to keep the commandments best. These sort of arguments are very much a part of Jewish tradition -- the Talmud records many of them. One should not conclude that Jesus was not behind the commandments simply because he argued over whether it is lawful to heal via prayer on the Shabbat, etc.

In addition to being behind the written Torah, Jesus was also behind Oral Torah -- the accumulated interpretations of Jewish law determined by the elders/judges/pharisees/rabbis according to Deuteronomy 17:8-13. In Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus tells his followers to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach -- that would include Oral Torah. In Matthew 23:23 Jesus instructs the Pharisees to obey the basics of Torah AS WELL AS the Oral Torah (using the Oral Torah teaching of the spice tax as an example). We also see examples of Jesus himself following oral Torah. For example, the oral law about the washing of hands was not yet settled; some Jews washed their hands before meals and others did not. Jesus chose to wash his hands before eating.

I never heard that the Oral Law spoke that Jesus observed all the 613 commandments. The point you bring up is interesting though and I hope I can go into this more later because right now I am not able to, I'm not home. But this begs the question perhaps not related, do you think Jesus existed as written? Many do not. I believe he did exist and was killed. But I'd like to go more into that 613 laws. Thanks for answering.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay, thank you for your honest question.

It is the traditional understanding that the Torah (the first five books of the Bible, also known as the Books of Law) contain 613 commandments given to Israel. "And the LORD said to Moses, Speak to the children of Israel, saying..." You can learn about them by reading the Torah of course, but you can also find published lists that group the commandments into categories, such as https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Commandments-Mitzvot.htm

Ten of these commandments were written in stone by God himself. They are known as the ten words, or ten statements. Most people know them as the ten commandments. The rest of the 613 are written in pen by Moses.

An observant Jew is someone who aspires to keep these 613 commandments, or at least those which apply to them. Some commandments are only for women. Some commandments are only for priests. You get the idea. Furthermore, you are only obliged to keep those commandments which are POSSIBLE to keep. For example, there are many commandments surrounding the various sacrifices in the temple. But right now there is no temple, and it is unlawful for a Jew to offer sacrifice anyplace else. Hosea tells us "The words of our lips (prayers) shall be as bullocks (sacrifices)." Jew today therefore say prayers in lieu of sacrifice. When the temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will resume.

Jesus was an observant Jew: he taught that "not even a brush stroke will pass away from the law until heaven and earth have passed away." When the rich man asked how to obtain eternal life, Jesus referred him to the commandments.

I'm not saying that Jesus was sinless or perfect. I'm simply saying that he aspired to obey; when he slipped up, he would have repented and returned to God's ways. The Bible says the difference between the righteous and the unrighteous is their willingness to repent:
Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again, But the wicked stumble under adversity.

In the gospels, you hear many arguments Jesus had with the Pharisees of the school of Shammai on exactly how to keep the commandments best. These sort of arguments are very much a part of Jewish tradition -- the Talmud records many of them. One should not conclude that Jesus was not behind the commandments simply because he argued over whether it is lawful to heal via prayer on the Shabbat, etc.

In addition to being behind the written Torah, Jesus was also behind Oral Torah -- the accumulated interpretations of Jewish law determined by the elders/judges/pharisees/rabbis according to Deuteronomy 17:8-13. In Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus tells his followers to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach -- that would include Oral Torah. In Matthew 23:23 Jesus instructs the Pharisees to obey the basics of Torah AS WELL AS the Oral Torah (using the Oral Torah teaching of the spice tax as an example). We also see examples of Jesus himself following oral Torah. For example, the oral law about the washing of hands was not yet settled; some Jews washed their hands before meals and others did not. Jesus chose to wash his hands before eating.

You're right about many things there stemming from the gospel accounts about Jesus and his ways. He was telling the religious leaders in many cases they were not doing right.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I never heard that the Oral Law spoke that Jesus observed all the 613 commandments. The point you bring up is interesting though and I hope I can go into this more later because right now I am not able to, I'm not home. But this begs the question perhaps not related, do you think Jesus existed as written? Many do not. I believe he did exist and was killed. But I'd like to go more into that 613 laws. Thanks for answering.

You are misunderstanding me. The Talmud never mentions Jesus (there are many Yeshuas, but none are the Yeshua that Christians believe in.) What I said was that Jesus follow the Torah as interpreted by Oral Torah.

No, I do not believe the gospels are reliable sources of information about Jesus. They were written decades after Jesus, and essentially try to collect all the stories about him, whether legend, myth, or history. So I believe in a historical Jesus, but not the Jesus of the gospels.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You're right about many things there stemming from the gospel accounts about Jesus and his ways. He was telling the religious leaders in many cases they were not doing right.

Well, he had a nit to pick with those religious leaders who taught the right thing but didn't do it themselves. It is quite normal to expect a higher level of behavior from those who are our moral authorities. Sadly, it is also quite common for people to be disappointed by such moral teachers.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are misunderstanding me. The Talmud never mentions Jesus (there are many Yeshuas, but none are the Yeshua that Christians believe in.) What I said was that Jesus follow the Torah as interpreted by Oral Torah.

No, I do not believe the gospels are reliable sources of information about Jesus. They were written decades after Jesus, and essentially try to collect all the stories about him, whether legend, myth, or history. So I believe in a historical Jesus, but not the Jesus of the gospels.

OK, but you do believe (I think?) that somehow (?) he followed all 613 laws? Forgive me, but I don't understand. So let me reiterate so maybe we'll understand one another. You don't believe the gospel accounts about Jesus. You do believe he argued with the religious leaders. Am I right so far?

 

[YoursTrue]

You are misunderstanding me. The Talmud never mentions Jesus (there are many Yeshuas, but none are the Yeshua that Christians believe in.) What I said was that Jesus follow the Torah as interpreted by Oral Torah.

You know this how?

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, he had a nit to pick with those religious leaders who taught the right thing but didn't do it themselves. It is quite normal to expect a higher level of behavior from those who are our moral authorities. Sadly, it is also quite common for people to be disappointed by such moral teachers.

Yes, certainly it is.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

OK, but you do believe (I think?) that somehow (?) he followed all 613 laws? Forgive me, but I don't understand. So let me reiterate so maybe we'll understand one another. You don't believe the gospel accounts about Jesus. You do believe he argued with the religious leaders. Am I right so far?

I think he aspired to follow all those commandments that applied to him. I don't think that he i.e. tried to obey commandments give only to women or to priests.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You know this how?

I already answered this in a very long post earlier today. I'm not up to spending that much time on a repeat post. It's now 3 am and I'm crashing.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think he aspired to follow all those commandments that applied to him. I don't think that he i.e. tried to obey commandments give only to women or to priests.

I used to think that Jesus was a "nice guy" but eventually I learned more about him, based on my study of the scriptures.

 

[YoursTrue]

I already answered this in a very long post earlier today. I'm not up to spending that much time on a repeat post. It's now 3 am and I'm crashing.

Maybe we can go over this later, because some things I read in your post don't add up. But thanks anyway. Hopefully we can clear them up.