Meat Eaters = Selfish (Steve & Bill)

[Trey of Diamonds]

Meh, same old same old from the militant fundamentalist vegitarian sect. Gives true vegitarians a bad name and creates stereotypes. Besides, the problem will fix itself within a few decades. Sooner or later we will be able to clone meat without having to clone the entire animal. So we'll be eating steaks that have never moo'ed or walked the earth.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We have evolved to be omnivorous, just like our close primate cousins. Our very dental structure is proof of this. And while I myself do not condone many of the very cruel and barbaric practices of large slaughterhouses, there are still many small farms that allow their animals to roam in a suitable area, feed off the grass that grows in their area, and are sold to local butchers and slaughterhouses for local sale.
There is also the issue of hunting, and how it helps to keep many populations like deer and rabbit in check, and the taxes from hunting licenses and permits are used to help further wild-life interests. And I know many people that hunt to help sustain there family.

Deer eat almost anything, I doubt they will run out any time soon.

They can flourish, here at least, very easily during the summer and early fall. But during the winter times, when there is significant snow coverage, deer must dig and forage for food. If we did not hunt them, many of them would end up starving to death. The same goes for rabbits, whose population can explode in just a few years. In which a large rabbit population makes it much more difficult for other herbivores to find food, especially when it is scarce. It can also lead to a higher coyote population, and the problems that can entail when populations get out of balance.

While meat is not a focus of my diet, I still eat it and without guilt. We are animals, we have evolved in a way for our bodies to need meat, meat is likely why our brains evolved they way they did, and there are plenty of lean alternatives to the grain-fed, drug injected, and cramped animals that are turned into high-fatty meats. Deer for example is a pretty good substitute for beef.

 

[Me Myself]

We are animals, we have evolved in a way for our bodies to need meat

We don´t.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

We don´t.

Agreed. We have evolved to have certain nutritional requirements. However, meat will supply those requirements just fine. It boils down to choice.

 

[fallingblood]

The fact is that we don´t require meat to survive or be healthy. My blood results show that.

And my son's last blood results showed that he needs more nutrients, which are readily available in meat. So there are alternatives; however, eating non-meat items is not a must either. If you really wanted to get down to it, one could survive off an IV. You choose to get certain nutrients from various living organisms, and I choose to get them from other living organisms.

So what? Our bodies are built to be ommnivores because evolution takes time and now we don´t need it for survival it will still look like it for a couple of millenia.

About it being "Natural" let me tell you something: We are the only specie that can change it´s nature so quick and so effectively. We are a specie that can naturaly choose to be vegetarian. You will not see a lion reason it´s way to vegetarianism.

So as "natural" as it is for us to eat meat, it is also natural for us to choose to not to. Killing people because we feel treathened by them is incredibly natural in any species (including humans). We choose the other natural choice that is to preserve community and to build compassion (that is more natural to us than to any other animal in the living kingdom)

There is more than one natural choice: One comes from what we´ve been doing for millenia, the other one comes from how compassionate and moral we can become.

So both being a vegetarian and not being a vebgetarian are natural choices for humans.

Are you sure you are not eating just for the taste?

So me eating meat is natural. It provides nutrients that I need to survive. I choose the meat that I eat based on a variety of circumstances. I buy a lot of it from a local meat market, that slaughters the animals humanely. I know this because I have spent the time to learn about it.

You being a vegetarian, and trying to tell me that it is more compassionate or moral simply is egotistical. It is you saying you're better than other simply because you think you're better. There is no evidence that people who eat meat are not compassionate or moral, or that they are less so.

And why do I eat meat? Because it is the easiest way (cash wise, location wise, and supply wise) to get the nutrients that I need, and that my family needs.

You know that a huge part of the Green House effect comes from cows farting?

I am not even joking (though it is funny ) . If you are going to tell me that then we should eat this cows I´ll tell you that´s exactly the problem: All this extra cows only exist to be our meat, they are owned by meat industries and if we didn´t ate so many cows, they wouldn´t breed so many cows.

So if you want to think collective good, let me tell you, stay eating deer, but stay off the McDonalds.

You are being very misleading. Cow farts (and burps actually) do not compromise a large part of the Green House effect. It actually compromises about 2%, which is the same as the amount produced from trash decomposing in landfills. Not really much at all. And really, the research shows that even if people stopped eating beef (say 50%), it would only drop the percent by maybe 1%. Really not significant.

So collective good, at least in this instance, doesn't support vegetarianism. Really, you're just promoting propaganda.

 

[fallingblood]

We have evolved to be omnivorous, just like our close primate cousins. Our very dental structure is proof of this. And while I myself do not condone many of the very cruel and barbaric practices of large slaughterhouses, there are still many small farms that allow their animals to roam in a suitable area, feed off the grass that grows in their area, and are sold to local butchers and slaughterhouses for local sale.
There is also the issue of hunting, and how it helps to keep many populations like deer and rabbit in check, and the taxes from hunting licenses and permits are used to help further wild-life interests. And I know many people that hunt to help sustain there family.


They can flourish, here at least, very easily during the summer and early fall. But during the winter times, when there is significant snow coverage, deer must dig and forage for food. If we did not hunt them, many of them would end up starving to death. The same goes for rabbits, whose population can explode in just a few years. In which a large rabbit population makes it much more difficult for other herbivores to find food, especially when it is scarce. It can also lead to a higher coyote population, and the problems that can entail when populations get out of balance.

While meat is not a focus of my diet, I still eat it and without guilt. We are animals, we have evolved in a way for our bodies to need meat, meat is likely why our brains evolved they way they did, and there are plenty of lean alternatives to the grain-fed, drug injected, and cramped animals that are turned into high-fatty meats. Deer for example is a pretty good substitute for beef.

Agreed. Just a couple of years ago, my state saw a massive amount of deer starvation during the winter because the winter was quite long. That in turn brought up the activity of coyotes in the area, that then threatened people's pets, and their livestock.

One extra thing about hunting is that it does and can stop the spread of disease. That is one thing that is beginning to be more supported in my state because of our neighboring state having seen an increase of diseased deer.

 

[Iti oj]

Not really, we're omnivores. That's exactly why I'm against meat now, because we take it more than we should.

doesnt mean you should cut meat out entirely. Find a happy balance...one low on meat. Find better raised meat if you want.

 

[Me Myself]

doesnt mean you should cut meat out entirely. Find a happy balance...one low on meat. Find better raised meat if you want.

But absence of meat is a perfectly happy balance. I can tell you there is nothing drastic in the body when it comes to stop eating meat.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

But absence of meat is a perfectly happy balance. I can tell you there is nothing drastic in the body when it comes to stop eating meat.

No, but a meat eater may not be able to just quit. It's better to phase it out rather than attempt going cold turkey.

 

[Me Myself]

No, but a meat eater may not be able to just quit. It's better to phase it out rather than attempt going cold turkey.

I am not talking about the process in which you get on so to get to the balance.

Our way of walking has enough balance in it for it to work, it doesn´t mean we could walk this way straigth second we tried (when we were babies).

I am just saying that "balance" doesn´t need to include any meat. If yu whish to include it it would most likely be because you like the taste of it more than anything else.

Other reasons may happen but the actual reason for the majority does tend to be liking the taste and nothing more.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I am not talking about the process in which you get on so to get to the balance.

Our way of walking has enough balance in it for it to work, it doesn´t mean we could walk this way straigth second we tried (when we were babies).

I am just saying that "balance" doesn´t need to include any meat. If yu whish to include it it would most likely be because you like the taste of it more than anything else.

Other reasons may happen but the actual reason for the majority does tend to be liking the taste and nothing more.

Ah, totally agree.:yes:

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Eating meat is natural for humans. Our bodies are built to eat meat (as well as plants). We may not slaughter animals in a more productive way, but that is because there are many more people now.

Not to mention, if we stop actually being participants in the food chain (as we are that), various populations of animals would become dangerous to us, or themselves. For instance, if people stopped hunting deer in my state, the population would soon climb to a level that simply could not be supported by the environment. Thus, the deer would starve to death as there simply would not be more food. More so, they would be ruining the lively hood of many individuals, for who the deer are already a nuisance.

There is nothing wrong with eating meat. It is not selfish, and one shouldn't be ashamed to eat meat. Demonizing meat eating simply is a low blow, and only a way in which one tries to force their idea onto others by saying it is the only way. And really, it comes off as very egotistical and self-righteous.

Also, I'd like to say, why don't we kill humans and make food or coats out of them? We're having a population crisis too, we have limited food problems. Should we kill humans? In your logic I don't see why not.

 

[Drolefille]

Also, I'd like to say, why don't we kill humans and make food or coats out of them? We're having a population crisis too, we have limited food problems. Should we kill humans? In your logic I don't see why not.

Because we consider people as different than animals. And people fight back or cry or look like our family members. Because we're emotionally attached to humans, except if we're sociopaths. Because raising a human to the age of sufficient meat production is expensive, our growth rate is so slow. Someone made such a modest proposal once and it was turned down. Also generally cannibalism is a bad idea for a species. It's so much easier to get infected by organisms already adapted to living in humans.

There are a lot of reasons, some more serious than others.

 

[Levite]

The OPs point rests very heavily on a total moral equivalence between humans and animals. But not everyone believes so, nor do I believe they need to believe so. Humans are humans. Animals are not. We're all living creatures, sure, and we all ultimately come from the same source. But that doesn't mean we're the same. Humans aren't plants, either. Humans are creatures that are evolved to be omnivorous. If someone wants to make the choice to eat only plant matter, fine: it's a free country, if you don't want to eat meat, no one should force you to. But we are what we are. Eating meat is natural. And while I don't know about aliens, I can certainly say that when I hear of people getting eaten by large animals, I may think it's a tragic shame, but I don't think the animal was immoral for eating a person. That's the way they are, too.

Any time you eat something, you killed an organism to do it, unless you spend all your time carefully gathering nuts and fruits, and don't question too much where your other nutritional supplements come from. Plants or animals makes no difference, morally, as far as I am concerned.

I do believe in some fundamental decency to other creatures, though, so in addition to keeping kosher, I try to only eat organic, free-range/pastured meat, and even such factory farmed meat that manages to somehow be called kosher, I do not eat. That, to me, is more than enough moral duty.

I eat meat because in reasonable amounts it is nutritious, and I enjoy the taste of meat more than I do most plant matter. I see nothing wrong with that. And I can't say much for fundamentalist vegetarian or vegan proselytizing, either: if there is anything less apt to make me eat less meat than having someone shout in my face about how morally corrupt I am for eating meat, I can't think of it. It really makes me want to have a burger, is what it does.

 

[Averroes]

I didn't realize when my brain decides to eat animal flesh, I am supposed to feel guilty about it. I mean if the shoe was on the other foot a predator would eat me with no remorse. Oh wait....here comes the "higher sense of morality" argument. I mean for god's sake, if plants are alive and a deer comes along chomping on the plant do we mourn the plant that now becomes extinct?

.

 

[Averroes]

Because we consider people as different than animals. And people fight back or cry or look like our family members. Because we're emotionally attached to humans, except if we're sociopaths. Because raising a human to the age of sufficient meat production is expensive, our growth rate is so slow. Someone made such a modest proposal once and it was turned down. Also generally cannibalism is a bad idea for a species. It's so much easier to get infected by organisms already adapted to living in humans.

There are a lot of reasons, some more serious than others.

Somewhat correct.

I believe we don't eat other humans because we have been socialized psychologically that eating the flesh of another human is barbaric and uncivilized.

 

[Drolefille]

Somewhat correct.

I believe we don't eat other humans because we have been socialized psychologically that eating the flesh of another human is barbaric and uncivilized.

The whooshing sound over your head was the joke.

 

[Me Myself]

I eat meat because in reasonable amounts it is nutritious, and I enjoy the taste of meat more than I do most plant matter. I see nothing wrong with that. And I can't say much for fundamentalist vegetarian or vegan proselytizing, either: if there is anything less apt to make me eat less meat than having someone shout in my face about how morally corrupt I am for eating meat, I can't think of it. It really makes me want to have a burger, is what it does.

While I wouldn´t use the words "morally corrupt" nor would a I thik you are a "bad person" for eating meat, I do could tell you that you could eat in a way that doesn´t involve other sentient living beings suffering.

Or to the least, you could eat less of the things that need to cause suffering to sentient beings to get.

I wouldn´t say killing animals is moraly equal to human animals(because we are animals), but I do would say it is still unnecesary suffering to other living beings.

If you don´t care, there is little I can tell you about it. I was that way for 20 years more or less, at least I knew I did it only for the taste, and that vegtarianism is indeed a more compasive way of looking at it.

I mean if the shoe was on the other foot a predator would eat me with no remorse.

The other day a Cow ate my cousin. It was horrible. I still wake up puking from all the nightmares that caused me.

Oh wait....here comes the "higher sense of morality" argument. I mean for god's sake, if plants are alive and a deer comes along chomping on the plant do we mourn the plant that now becomes extinct?.

A plant doesn´t feel pain. Animals do.

Like my cousin... that friggin cow! :cover:

 

[Averroes]

The whooshing sound over your head was the joke.

You made both of my girlfriends cry

 

[Averroes]

While I wouldn´t use the words "morally corrupt" nor would a I thik you are a "bad person" for eating meat, I do could tell you that you could eat in a way that doesn´t involve other sentient living beings suffering.

Or to the least, you could eat less of the things that need to cause suffering to sentient beings to get.

I wouldn´t say killing animals is moraly equal to human animals(because we are animals), but I do would say it is still unnecesary suffering to other living beings.

If you don´t care, there is little I can tell you about it. I was that way for 20 years more or less, at least I knew I did it only for the taste, and that vegtarianism is indeed a more compasive way of looking at it.



The other day a Cow ate my cousin. It was horrible. I still wake up puking from all the nightmares that caused me.




A plant doesn´t feel pain. Animals do.

Like my cousin... that friggin cow! :cover:

So wait the lack of pain reception means that the level of morality when it comes to eating plants is lower? Besides how do we know what plants feel or don't feel?