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Meat-Eating vs. Bestiality

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In contrast, grass fed cows, raised on farms in areas of natural grasslands, using modern rotational grazing techniques on farms, are fine for the environment.
Provide the evidence that raising grass-fed cows is better for the environment, for the cows and for the climate than raising plants for human consumption.

I've read researchers claiming that grass-fed cows are more harmful to the environment (in large part because it requires a great deal more land, and the pasture requires maintenance and fertilizer) than grain-fed cows. And they all still emit methane, require great amounts of water, and other resources in their slaughter, packaging, refrigeration, etc.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
So you're claiming now that you didn't make a claim about humans having "omnivore" teeth? It's one of your claims that you obviously can't substantiate. That your Young-Earth-Creationist gibberish.

What was your reason for asserting the falsehood about humans having "omnivore" teeth?


I don't even know if this is comprehensible...

Try, again with an actual response.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am a vegetarian, but I also think I rather nibble on a leg of a cow than humping it.
I'm also a veggie, but I'd sooner hump a cow than eat it (not that either option interests me in the least, mind you).
Given the choice, I think the cow would prefer a brief, painless -- albeit possibly annoying -- rear end advance, than being slaughtered and butchered.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I haven't seen any evidence that raising and using animals for human consumption under any conditions is better for the environment, or the animals, or the climate than raising plants for human consumption. Present that evidence.
Well, I think you still need to work on one issue at a time. We can get to that later, if we can ever resolve this simple biological discussion wherein you insist upon the idea that humans are not omnivores- as far as the term is applicable.

I will gladly discuss, sustainable farming, humane slaughter, or any of the like once you accept the biological fact that meat eating played vital role in the development and evolution of Homo-sapiens-sapiens, we as humans have evolved in such a way that we can extract nutrients from meat, and require, for healthy development, nutrients that are found more easily and more abundantly in meat.

Cheers,

Have a nice day.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Again, I think it is the way you approach the subject, that evokes the responses that you are getting.

For instance, you just switched a meta-conversation about your approach to saying the meat eaters you discuss this with are illogical, cows are loveable, and humans don't need cow milk.

While I understand that you have undoubtedly given this lots of thought, I would think that organizing those thoughts into a presentable, respectful way might go a long way to ameliorating some of these conversations which you have.
I'm sure you're right... and it feels a lot like what I probably feel like when in a "debate" over my (lack of) beliefs, etc. However my main sticking point - and the reason I get into the state of mind I do and "go after" people is because we're not dealing with "faith" or "belief" on this issue - we're dealing with cold, hard facts. Humans don't need cow's milk. Period. Cows suffer for the procurement of it. Period. It's like ignoring concentration camps and all the horrors that the beings/people face therein because you get good quality clothing made by those trapped there.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I haven't seen any evidence that raising and using animals for human consumption under any conditions is better for the environment, or the animals, or the climate than raising plants for human consumption. Present that evidence.
Well, I think you still need to work on one issue at a time. We can get to that later, if we can ever resolve this simple biological discussion wherein you insist upon the idea that humans are not omnivores- as far as the term is applicable.
What, is it too embarrassing for you to acknowledge you have been unable to specify any biological adaptations that characterize humans as omnivores?

I take it you also won't be able to present any evidence by which to conclude that raising and using animals for human consumption is ever better for the environment, better for the animals, or better for the climate than raising plants for human consumption.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
What, is it too embarrassing for you to acknowledge you have been unable to specify any biological adaptations that characterize humans as omnivores?

I take it you also won't be able to present any evidence by which to conclude that raising and using animals for human consumption is ever better for the environment, better for the animals, or better for the climate than raising plants for human consumption.

No, I have looked through many, journals now and find your argument more and more akin to denial of evolution. We are omnivores- if the word is to be used at all. Your denial of this simple scientifically accepted fact is humorous. But there is no reason to continue into any kind of ethical argument if you cannot accept the generally accepted understanding that we are omnivores, meat has played a role in our evolutionary history, and animal products are rich in necessary nutrients that are not commonly found in plants.

I am willing to accept that it is not necessary to eat meat, that these nutrients can be found from other sources, and that being an omnivore does not change the ethical question, for many modern humans, of whether we ought to eat animal products.

But humans are omnivores. Spreading falsehoods isn't a way to enter into an intellectually honest discussion. Either you are aware of the common acceptance that humans are omnivores and are going to cherry pick from vegetarian sources with a political agenda, or you haven't researched this at all. If it is the latter, I will be happy to cite more sources. If it is the former, we are going to get nowhere.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Why is a barnyard animal not sapient?
Why is there nothing comparable between humans and livestock?

When has a chicken created a work of art, formed a language, or built a civilization? When has a cow displayed the ability to reason or understand abstract thoughts? Do they have hopes and dreams?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Of course. A simple google search got me here https://www.aspca.org/animal-cruelty/factory-farms- check the top right corner. I have to check the official USDA statistics for further proof, so take this with a grain of salt for now.

I checked the USDA and couldn't find any such proof. Admittedly, it's loaded with information, so I'm not discounting the possibility that I may have missed something.

So if I talk about the health and environmental impacts of your diet, would you consider that emotional? As far as ethical arguments are concerned, you do realize that morality flows from rational thought right?

Okay, I see. I appreciate your intentions. Where do you buy your meat, and have you actually visited the farm your meat comes from?

From a moral standpoint, I've explained what I do and do not consider acceptable. Though, I do not consider it immoral to consume animals (but do consider it immoral to fornicate with animals), I do not consider it immoral to inhumanely treat livestock.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I'm obviously not going to take the time to post the reams and reams of evidence, witness accounts and medical information that I have seen and gone through myself. I wouldn't even know where to begin honestly. Here's a list of good documentaries you should watch, if you actually care to be informed on the topic:

Food, Inc.
Earthlings
Cowspiracy
Forks Over Knives

Here's a link to a CDC website explaining the facts of the risks and detriments of using antibiotics in live-stock: http://www.cdc.gov/narms/animals.html

Here's a link to a full report on CAFO's (Confined Animal Feeding Operations) by the group "Union of Concerned Scientists": http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default...ents/food_and_agriculture/cafos-uncovered.pdf

Also all fact-based. An excerpt: "CAFOs are characterized by large numbers of animals crowded into a confined space—an unnatural and unhealthy condition that concentrates too much manure in too small an area. Many of the costly problems caused by CAFOs can be attributed to the storage and disposal of this manure and the overuse of antibiotics in livestock to stave off disease."

Here's a link to a site hosting footage of undercover investigations done by the organization "Mercy for Animals": http://www.mercyforanimals.org/investigations

And I think, by now, we should have all heard about this: http://www.cancer.org/cancer/news/news/world-health-organization-says-processed-meat-causes-cancer
The World Health Organization's report on the topic of processed meat as a causes for cancer.

Google anything you've ever heard of as a detriment to meat-production if actually want to learn anything. Though I am guessing by your demeanor that you are one of those types who put their hands over their ears and yell "LA! LA! LA! LA! LA!" at the top of your lungs when anyone challenges your precious meat-eating habits.

I wouldn't pretentiously assume me to be ill informed or indifferent to the plight of abused animals.

From a moral standpoint, I've explained several times now, that I don't condone such treatment of animals. Like bestiality, I consider such treatment to be morally unacceptable.

Admittedly, I'm not able to translate this compassion into action as would be ideal. My supermarket offers limited selection of meats and I have not had time to entertain the notion of researching farms to ensure that the meat that I'm purchasing is from an acceptable source.

I'm well aware that we're putting a lot of crap into our bodies that we don't need and do lean towards labels that are free range and anti-biotic free. Unfortunately, such eggs, dairy, beef and poultry choices aren't readily available to us, unless we're able to go to a specialty store or drive considerable distance to a farm.

I think of those who are living at or below the poverty level. Placing morality into action as it relates to meat consumption may not be a feasible option for some.

No one should be guilted into not eating meat. Perhaps more readily available education and choice as it relates to moral consumerism would be helpful.

I have need at this juncture to purchase from what's readily available and affordable and will hold myself accountable to any negate consequences that result.
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
A "sapient"?

Didn't you use the term "humane" upstream to describe the abuse and slaughtering of livestock animals? But now you claim it isn't "humane" to do the same things to humans? What does "humane" mean in your world?

Clearly what's humane in one situation might not be in another. Human children aren't prey animals and are a higher form of life, so the situation and standards are completely different.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Clearly what's humane in one situation might not be in another. Human children aren't prey animals and are a higher form of life, so the situation and standards are completely different.
What, really? Have we just encountered different types of children?
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Provide the evidence that raising grass-fed cows is better for the environment, for the cows and for the climate than raising plants for human consumption.

We should raise plants for human consumption anyway. Nobody is advocating a nearly all-meat diet like the Inuits have. It's about having a diverse food system with various croplands and permacultures tuned to the local environment. Livestock are ideal for the drier areas of the world where while crops are ideal for the wetter areas of the world. There's no reason for them to compete for space.

Here's Allan Savory, an environmentalist whose career is based on reversing desertification, speaking at a TED talk about how he has advocated the use of cattle to reverse desertification:


Here are some of the benefits of grass-fed cows and other ruminants:

-Much of the land in the world consists of natural grasslands, shrublands, savannahs, and similar landscapes. These are moderately drier areas of the world, and are less ideal for growing crops. But grass thrives on those levels of rainfall and humidity. In a purely wild state, which in most areas no longer exists, millions of ruminants wandered over the land, forming a mutually beneficial relationship with the grass. This can be mimicked with Allan Savory style holistic management.

-Grasslands are diverse environments, with dozens of types of grasses, weeds, and wild plants mixed together. They don't need weed control or pesticides because the cows eat weeds along with the rest of what's there and bugs are beneficial rather than destructive to the grass and soil. In contrast, large croplands are artificial; they don't exist in nature. Bugs and weeds tend to destroy them, and so a variety of herbicides and pesticides (organic or chemical) are usually needed to keep them away, to maintain this fragile, artificial system from the fundamental diversifying forces of nature.

-Croplands are harvested and replanted year after year, which on a large scale often means mechanical harvesting with petroleum-based vehicles. This typically depletes the soil, reduces water retention of the soil, contributes to flooding, and contributes to harmful fertilizer run-off. In contrast, grasslands are permacultures; permanent landscapes that don't have to be torn up and recreated on an annual basis. Holistically managed livestock grasslands can create soil rather than deplete it.

-Dense grasslands have extensive root systems and grow quickly, allowing them to retain more rainwater and nutrients and sequester more atmospheric carbon than many types of annual planting crops, especially the dwarf versions of crops that have been designed for easy mechanical harvesting on a large scale. Cows and other ruminants play a critical role in pruning the grass, fertilizing the grass, and stomping plant mass down into the soil, and are a necessary part of how the grasslands came to exist and how they are maintained without turning to desert.

-Several environmentalists use holistic livestock management to reverse areas of desertification, which further sequesters carbon from the air and buries it into the newly created soil meters deep. Soybeans or wheat or corn or avocados or most other crops aren't suitable for this purpose; they're artificial systems that don't flourish as well in the drier areas.

-In this post, which none of the anti-livestock debaters in this thread have even tried to respond to yet including yourself, I gave an example of a permaculture orchard that uses cows and sheep for mowing the grass in their orchards, using goats to clear away the weeds and vines around the trees, and chickens to peck away at bugs around the trunks of the trees. All of those animals fertilize the orchard also, sharply reducing their need to fertilize. This farm reduced their fuel consumption by 85% by using these animals to mimic nature's method pest control, weed control, fertilization, and mowing, and saved a lot of money by not having to buy much fertilizer.

I've read researchers claiming that grass-fed cows are more harmful to the environment (in large part because it requires a great deal more land, and the pasture requires maintenance and fertilizer) than grain-fed cows.
Historically, most cows are ranched improperly, in ways that are damaging to the grass and environment because they don't mimic nature. Specifically, they don't mimic the herding patterns, the cycle of how ruminants accelerate grass growth. Holistic livestock management does.

Did you watch the farmer talk about his farm in the youtube video I included in my post that you quoted? He uses the holistic management techniques from Allan Savory, that guy in the TED talk video earlier in this post, and he hasn't used a single bag of chemical fertilizer in the 50+ years that his farm has existed. Here's another video where he specifically talks about his grass management:


He's a well-known farmer among permaculturalists and holistic cattle ranchers in the United States because he's a leader in showing how to do it well, how to get far more productivity from the land by mimicking nature.

Grain fed cows start their lives on grasslands, and spend most of their time on them. Then they get taken from grasslands and moved to a disgusting feedlot. On that feedlot, they are fattened up on varieties of grains and other things that have to be grown elsewhere, which is a horrible use of calories and land, especially since the cows start to get obese and sick on the grains and often require antibiotics. All of that grain (whether humans or cows eat it) requires water, fertilizer, herbicides, pesticides, etc.

Grassfed cows with holistic management techniques on areas of natural grasslands require daily movement of the cows to mimic how they move in nature, but other than that, the grass mostly manages itself with the levels of rainfall typical in those moderately dry areas, and with massive output of vegetation growth and carbon-sequestering soil production. Farmers like him can also collect their own rainfall in retention ponds for use in other areas or for drier months, which he does.

Natural diverse grasslands are optimized for the areas they exist in. They don't need pesticides, don't need herbicides, don't need much water apart from rainfall, and the animals provide the fertilization. In contrast, croplands are artificial, and generally require additional amounts of water, fertilizer, pesticides, and herbicides to maintain their artificial existence, especially in any drier area. But since we still want and need vegetables, we need croplands in the wetter areas of the world as well.

And they all still emit methane
Methane is a more potent earth-warmer than carbon dioxide but stays in the air for only about a decade, about a tenth of the time that carbon stays in the air. Natural chemical processes in nature quickly remove it.

North America alone had tens of millions of methane-emitting bison and other ruminants prior to European colonization of the continent. Methane-emitting ruminants are a key part in the creation and maintenance of grasslands all over the world, and the grasslands remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and store it in roots and soil.

Consider the input/output relationship of a holistically managed cattle ranch.

The bulk inputs are hydrogen and oxygen from rainfall, carbon dioxide from the air, and energy from the sun. These inputs grow the grass, and the growth is accelerated by livestock when managed in a way that mimics nature, because the grass is kept almost continuously in its fast-growth phase of life.

The bulk outputs are carbon-rich soil, and beef that consists mainly of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Small amounts of methane are emitted, and then eventually removed by natural processes in nature.

So, when done well, carbon is sequestered from the atmosphere into soil in large amounts, which is where it's supposed to be. Holistic livestock management optimizes the productivity of this process, maximizing the amount of carbon that can be sequestered per acre. Joe Salatin, for example, uses holistic livestock management to grow four times as much grass per acre as farms in his region, and all of that translates to about four times as much carbon sequestration and soil creation, which also supports a lot of cows for food for people. Grasslands, due to how dense and quickly they grow under the right conditions, and how they form a permanent soil-creation relationship with the grazing animals, sequester far more carbon than trees, wheat, corn, soybeans, or vegetables in these drier areas.

So yes, livestock emit methane, which is a natural and short-lived greenhouse gas. In return, they eat and fertilize the grass to optimize the carbon-sequestering process of the grassland, thereby removing long-lived carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. If people would reduce their fossil fuel use, and convert significant portions of the lands currently used for grains to holistically managed grasslands, evidence and examples strongly show that we can reduce atmospheric carbon to pre-industrial levels, while emitting an amount of methane that approximates the amount emitted by wild herds.

require great amounts of water
Untrue, for holistically managed grasslands.

Various types of grasslands, shrub lands, and savannahs are the natural state in the moderately arid places of the world. A bit of water can be used for times of drought, but for the most part, rainfall is sufficient. As shown, many environmentalists specifically use holistic livestock management to reverse desertification and improve the ability of the soil to retain water from rainfall.

Further, many well-designed permacultures include ponds designed to collect rainwater and provide for most or all of the water uses on the farm for their other crops and for drier times of the year. The example I gave earlier of a permaculture orchard does this, and so does Joe Salatin on his farm.

and other resources in their slaughter, packaging, refrigeration, etc.
Vegetables, fruits, and grains all require supply chains and energy as well. Eating locally minimizes the resources needed for this for both plant and animal foods.

Large grainlands and many large vegetable fields use fossil-fueled mechanized seed-planting and crop-harvesting vehicles, usually require a lot of irrigation, usually require pesticides and herbicides, and usually require a lot of fertilizer inputs from trucks and trains.

Grasslands with grazing ruminants are the natural state of affairs, and don't require annual replanting and require little or no water input in the right areas, and don't require pesticides or herbicides or chemical fertilizer. They benefit from plant diversification rather than requiring the use of herbicides for weeds, and benefit from the various bugs that live in the ecosystem. They're mostly self-sustaining when managed well, and trucks come and take the cows for culling, which are then distributed. (In nature, they'd die of old age or be ripped apart by predators). Buying locally reduces overall resources used, and things like refrigeration can be solar powered. Many fruits and vegetables also use refrigeration anyway.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, I have looked through many, journals now and find your argument more and more akin to denial of evolution.
What argument of mine are you referring to? Quote it.

We are omnivores
And I take it that you are still unable to provide any evidence by which to conclude that humans have the biological adaptations that characterize omnivores. Your claim is just an article of faith. Correct?

Spreading falsehoods isn't a way to enter into an intellectually honest discussion.
You haven't shown anything I've said is a falsehood, have you? If you have, please give the post number.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Obviously I don't think humans should be slaughtered for food, humanely or otherwise. Nice 'loaded question' fallacy, though.
So you agree that slaughtering an animal is not treating him/her humanely like you believe humans should be treated.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Here's Allan Savory, an environmentalist whose career is based on reversing desertification, speaking at a TED talk about how he has advocated the use of cattle to reverse desertification:
Bolding is mine:

The most systematic research trial supporting Savory’s claims, the Charter Grazing Trials, was undertaken in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe today) between 1969 and 1975. Given the ecological vagaries of deserts worldwide, one could certainly question whether Savory’s research on a 6,200-acre spot of semiarid African land holds any relevance for the rest of the world’s 12 billion acres of desert. Extrapolation seems even more dubious when you consider that a comprehensive review of Savory’s trial and other similar trials, published in 2002, found that Savory’s signature high-stocking density and rapid-fire rotation plan did not lead to a perfectly choreographed symbiosis between grass and beast.

Instead, there were problems during the Charter Grazing Trials, ones not mentioned in Savory’s dramatic talk. Cattle that grazed according to Savory’s method needed expensive supplemental feed, became stressed and fatigued, and lost enough weight to compromise the profitability of their meat. And even though Savory’s Grazing Trials took place during a period of freakishly high rainfall, with rates exceeding the average by 24 percent overall, the authors contend that Savory’s method “failed to produce the marked improvement in grass cover claimed from its application.” The authors of the overview concluded exactly what mainstream ecologists have been concluding for 40 years: “No grazing system has yet shown the capacity to overcome the long-term effects of overstocking and/or drought on vegetation productivity.”

The extension of Savory’s grazing techniques to other regions of Africa and North America has produced even less encouraging results. Summarizing other African research on holistically managed grazing, the same report that evaluated the Charter Grazing Trials found “no clear cut advantage for any particular form of management,” holistic or otherwise. It noted that “more often than not” intensive systems marked by the constant rotation of densely packed herds of cattle led to a decline in animal productivity while doing nothing to notably improve botanical growth.

A 2000 evaluation of Savory’s methods in North America (mostly on prairie rangelands in Wyoming, Oklahoma, Texas, and New Mexico) contradicted Savory’s conclusions as well. Whereas Savory asserts that the concentrated pounding of cow hooves will increase the soil’s ability to absorb water, North American studies, according to the authors, “have been quite consistent in showing that hoof action from having a large number of animals on a small area for short time periods reduced rather than increased filtration.” Likewise, whereas Savory insists that his methods will revive grasses, “the most complete study in North America” on the impact of holistic management on prairie grass found “a definite decline” of plant growth on mixed prairie and rough fescue areas. It’s no wonder that one ecologist--who was otherwise sympathetic toward Savory--flatly stated after the TED talk, “Savory’s method won’t scale.”

Even if Savory’s plan could scale, foodies would still have to curb their carnivorous cravings. The entire premise of any scheme of rotational grazing, as Savory repeatedly notes, is the careful integration of plants and animals to achieve a “natural” balance. As Dr. Sylvia Fallon of the Natural Resources Defense Council has shown, symbiosis between grazing herds and grasses has historically worked best to sequester carbon when the animals lived the entirety of their lives within the ecosystem, their carcasses rotted and returned their accumulated nutrients into the soil, and human intervention was minimal to none. It is unclear, given that Savory has identified this type of arrangement as his ecological model, how marketing cattle for food would be consistent with these requirements. Cows live up to 20 years of age, but in most grass-fed systems, they are removed when they reach slaughter weight at 15 months. Cheating the nutrient cycle at the heart of land regeneration by removing the manure-makers and grass hedgers when only 10 percent of their ecological “value” has been exploited undermines the entire idea of efficiency that Savory spent his TED talk promoting.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...benefits_of_holistic_grazing_have.single.html

Continue reading. Links to the peer-reviewed studies are in the Slate article.

So you are unable to present any actual evidence showing that raising and using animals for human consumption is ever better for the environment, better for the animals, or better for the climate than raising plant foods for human consumption?
 
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