Meditation v. Magick

[Student of X]

Thats not true. im a magician but i almost exclusively use magic for others. Though to be honest i prefer the title chaos shaman

Well, "coolness" factors and fashionable titles aside, I stand by my assertion that magic takes and mysticism gives.

 

[1137]

Well, "coolness" factors and fashionable titles aside, I stand by my assertion that magic takes and mysticism gives.

The reason magick does not give is it is personal and internal. Magick can only work on your own mind or those who accept it.

 

[Iti oj]

Well, "coolness" factors and fashionable titles aside, I stand by my assertion that magic takes and mysticism gives.

Ohh you like my title? Awesomeness, thank you dfor the compliment.

Now…
the worlds not always so black and white …may I asl where would you place me, mystic or, magcian?

 

[doppelganger]

Magic, to me, is simply the various methods by which the products of thought manifest in ordered reality.

A man owns a factory on a small island. He gets tired of paying to have his goods carried across a river by boats. He imagines one day, a bridge connecting his island to the mainland. Architects and engineers use symbols and information to design the bridge and contractors and materialmen erect it. A spell has been cast. What started out as thought and desire became manifest in reality.

Superstitious wishful thinking (petitioning prayer, for example) is the least effective form of magical practice, but also demands the least amount of skill and training to practice.

 

[Student of X]

Ohh you like my title? Awesomeness, thank you dfor the compliment.

Actually yeah I do like it.

Now…
the worlds not always so black and white …may I asl where would you place me, mystic or, magcian?

I feel that I don't have enough information to place you.

 

[Iti oj]

Actually yeah I do like it.



I feel that I don't have enough information to place you.

Well then I suggest q and a time. … soo what ya wana know

 

[Student of X]

Magic, to me, is simply the various methods by which the products of thought manifest in ordered reality.

I would say that both magic and mysticism have various methods by which synchronicity manifests. The difference is where a synchronicity is aimed. At profit? Power? Or individuation?

Superstitious wishful thinking (petitioning prayer, for example) is the least effective form of magical practice, but also demands the least amount of skill and training to practice.

That's because it's all about a burning heart, devotion, and surrender. Pearl divers don't necessarily need to know how to swim. Pearls can be brought up to them, if their heart burns hot enough.

Moses and the Shepherd (Rumi)


Moses heard a shepherd on the road praying,
“God,
where are you? I want to help You, to fix Your shoes
and comb your hair. I want to wash Your clothes
and pick the lice off. I want to bring You milk,
to kiss Your little hands and feet when it’s time
for You to go to bed. I want to sweep Your room
and keep it neat. God, my sheep and my goats
are Yours. All I can say, remembering You,
is ayyyyyyy and ahhhhhhhh.”

Moses could stand it no longer.
“Who are you talking to?”

“The one who made us,
and made the earth and made the sky.”

“Don’t talk about shoes and socks with God!
And what’s this with Your little hands and feet?
Such blasphemous familiarity sounds like
you’re chatting with your uncles.
Only something that grows needs milk.
Only someone with feet needs shoes. Not God!
Even if you meant God’s human representatives,
as when God said, ‘I was sick, and you did not visit me,’
even then this tone would be foolish and irreverent.

Use appropriate terms. Fatima is a fine name
for a woman, but if you call a man Fatima,
it’s an insult. Body-and-birth language
are right for us on this side of the river,
but not for addressing the Origin,
not for Allah.”

The shepherd repented and tore his clothes and sighed
and wandered out into the desert.

A sudden revelation
came then to Moses. God’s voice:
You have separated Me
from one of my own. Did you come as a prophet to unite,
or to sever?
I have given each being a separate and unique way
of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.
What seems wrong to you is right for him.
What is poison to one is honey to someone else.

Purity and impurity, sloth and diligence in worship,
these mean nothing to Me.
I am apart from all that.
Ways of worshipping are not to be ranked as better
or worse than one another.
Hindus do Hindu things.
The Dravidian Muslims in India do what they do.
It’s all praise, and it’s all right.

It’s not Me that’s glorified in acts of worship.
It’s the worshippers! I don’t hear the words
They say. I look inside at the humility.
That broken-open lowliness is the Reality,
not the language! Forget phraseology.
I want burning, burning.
Be friends
with your burning. Burn up your thinking
and your forms of expression!
Moses,
those who pay attention to ways of behaving
and speaking are one sort.
Lovers who burn are another.”

Don’t impose a property tax
on a burned out village. Don’t scold the Lover.
The “wrong” way he talks is better than a hundred
“right” ways of others.
Inside the Kaaba
it doesn’t matter which direction you point
your prayer rug!
The ocean diver doesn’t need snowshoes!
The Love-Religion has no code or doctrine.
Only God.
So the ruby has nothing engraved on it!
It doesn’t need markings.
God began speaking
deeper mysteries to Moses. Vision and words,
which cannot be recorded here, poured into
and through him. He left himself and came back.
He went to eternity and came back here.
Many times this happened.
It’s foolish of me
to try and say this. If I did say it,
it would uproot our human intelligences.
It would shatter all writing pens.

Moses ran after the shepherd.
He followed the bewildered footprints,
in one place moving straight like a castle
across a chessboard. In another, sideways,
like a bishop.
Now surging like a wave cresting,
now sliding down like a fish,
with always his feet
making geomancy symbols in the sand,
recording his wandering state.

Moses finally caught up with him.
“I was wrong. God has revealed to me
that there are no rules for worship.
Say whatever
and however your loving tells you to. Your sweet blasphemy
is the truest devotion.
Through you a whole world is freed.
Loosen your tongue and don’t worry what comes out.
It’s all the light of the Spirit.”

The shepherd replied,
“Moses, Moses,
I’ve gone beyond even that.
You applied the whip and my horse shied and jumped
out of itself. The Divine Nature and my human nature
came together.
Bless your scolding hand and your arm.
I can’t say what has happened.
What I’m saying now
is not my real condition. It can’t be said.”

The shepherd grew quiet.

When you look in a mirror,
you see yourself, not the state of the mirror.
The fluteplayer puts breath into a flute,
and who makes the music? Not the flute.
The Fluteplayer!

Whenever you speak praise
or thanksgiving to God, it’s always like this
dear shepherd’s simplicity.
When you eventually see
through the veils to how things really are,
you will keep saying again
and again,
“This is certainly not like
we thought it was!”

 

[Student of X]

Well then I suggest q and a time. … soo what ya wana know

hmm well ok, tell me about any paranormal experiences you may have had and about your religious background.

 

[Octavia156]

So I see a lot of posts in the DIR about magick, doing rituals or ceremonies to cause change in your life. Some people seem to think of it in a supernatural way, which I am not really into. I recognize that the use of ritual and symbolism is extremely powerful psychologically, but what is that really accomplishing? Magick is a more complicated way of positive thinking, praying, wishing, hoping, etc it seems. I have also seen "rituals" where you simply light a candle in the dark and feel the powers of darkness, whatever that means to people.

So what is magick really? Is it simply a placebo effect of the mind? Personally, if nothing is actually happening I see no point in practicing it. Or, is it more like mysticism and meditation, tapping into something deeper than ourselves? If this is the case, where is a line drawn between magick and meditation? The way I hear magick talked about is very mystical, which is why meditation is almost always involved. So are we changing things on a higher spiritual level, because from what I know many LHP followers are not really spiritual in any way.

Ah, ranting and no idea what I am trying to say.

TDoP

For me, there are two over arching schools of Mysticism - Yoga (from the east) and Magick (from the west). The Eastern yogic schools focusing Union through Negation, and the western schools, Union through connection. Two sides of the same coin if you will.

Therefore I see that, Meditation is to Yoga as Ritual is to Magick. Both cogs in a complex system of mystic practises and processes.

To answer some of your questions; the purpose practising of ceremonial ritual is to bombard all senses, the complexity of the forumlas involved often hold beautiful symbolic meaning that provide platforms for thoughtful meditation on the nature of reality.
And just like Meditation, they require an immense amount of self discipline and will power to properly perfect.What does it accomplish? A more disciplined, more connected, and more grounded individual.

What is magick? I'm of the school that every act of Will is a magickal act. Magick is the art and science of chausing change according to one's Will.
I believe practising magick changes you alone, but you alone are the universe. by changing yourself, you change IT.

Is it a trick of the mind? Absolutely. A very clever one

 

[Me Myself]

Well, "coolness" factors and fashionable titles aside, I stand by my assertion that magic takes and mysticism gives.

Sounds like breathing

We all do magic all the time because all the time our supernatural energies (chakras, aura, etc) are affecting other supernatural energies arond us and creating effects as well as being affected.

When we CONSCIOUSLY do magic it can be more powerful naturaly.

About your other comment of magic being power one must not succumb to I disagree completely.

I belileve that "power corrupts" is a very inferior thought to have when you are truly wise. Power enhance, it doesn´t further corrupt in itself, it giv es you the posibility of further purity and purifying (like purifying others) and of further corruption and corrupting.

Ulimately, absolute power without wisdom means to control everything except oneself.

Absolute wisdom means to control everything from within.

this doesn´t in ANY WAY exclude magical aid to the better good.

 

[Student of X]

About your other comment of magic being power one must not succumb to I disagree completely.

OK, but I didn't actually use the word must. Sometimes it turns out that where you stumble and fall is where you find the gold. So go ahead, use your mana for mundane power if that's what you want.

I belileve that "power corrupts" is a very inferior thought to have when you are truly wise. Power enhance, it doesn´t further corrupt in itself, it giv es you the posibility of further purity and purifying (like purifying others) and of further corruption and corrupting.

OK, but I think we're talking about different sorts of power. A psychic who uses his gift to get money and chicks and fast cars and a mansion isn't exactly purifying himself or others. And yet, I wouldn't judge such a person, the world needs both magicians and mystics, and whose to say what lessons he needs to learn?

 

[Me Myself]

OK, but I didn't actually use the word must. Sometimes it turns out that where you stumble and fall is where you find the gold.

OK, but I think we're talking about different sorts of power. A psychic who uses his gift to get chicks and fast cars and a mansion isn't exactly purifying himself or others. And yet, I wouldn't judge such a person, the world needs both magicians and mystics.

I see it this way:

Magic is just a way tog et things. They could be spiritual things, they could be material things. Magic is merely a tool.

I do would prefer everyone being wiser than everyone being adept to magic, and wisdom comes from mysticism. But I think you can own a ferrari and be a good man that is helpful to the all.

 

[1137]

I feel like magick is just a western version of meditation. Ever notice the similarities between paths like Thelema and Taoism? The LHP groups seem to be tapping into more ancient things before the Abrahamic nonsense.

 

[1137]

Magick, perhaps, is the way of getting out all your emotions so your mind can be silenced. Then, after getting out all the pity, compassion, lust, anger, symbolic delusions, etc you can meditate better. Magick and meditation have a yin yang type thing going on.

 

[1137]

Or magick is weaker meditation, much as prayer is weaker magick??? Who knows

 

[Me Myself]

Meditation is listening, magic/prayer(the same thing) is speaking.

That´s the way I see it.

(it IS a general brush though)

 

[blackout]

Meditation is listening, magic/prayer(the same thing) is speaking.

That´s the way I see it.

(it IS a general brush though)

I agree with that.

For a time I was a See'r exclusively.

I LIVED in a meditative state,
as my surroundings spoke to me continually
in the most amazing and symbolic ways.
My eyes were opened to the beauty
of seeing and reading 'Life Signs'.

After many months of this though,
this observational Wonderland,
it became clear that something important was missing.
It was not enough to hear the UniVerse 'speak'.
It is our 'birthright' also, to speak the UniVerse into Being.

And so I also then became SourceHeiress.
or, Heiress of Source. Source'er'er.
One who reaches deep into Source and Shapes the world around him/herSelf,
as creator of Word, World and Form.

It has to do with our relationship
with our surroundings.
We breathe in....
We breathe out...
and again...
and again....

We listen, We contemplate, We formulate, We respond, We interact, We speak, We form, We create, and We listen once again.

It is a cyclical process.
We breathe in... We listen.
We breathe out... We Speak.

Sometimes we lead,
Sometimes we follow,
Sometimes we build,
Sometimes we ride.
Sometimes we listen.
Sometimes we speak.
Sometimes we read.
Sometimes we write.

This is the art... the way.... of musical improvisation.
It is Our dance with the Cosmos.
The stories we write.
The Life we Live.


It is the give and take of Self and Surroundings.

There is a time to be still,
and a time to take action.

 

[1137]

Ok it makes sense that magick is speaking back to the Universe, while meditation is listening. But what does magick accomplish in 'reality' then, because this explanation doesn't seem to view magick as purely psychological.

I think magick is a way to help "come into being" as the Setians will say. You reach out, then the Universe reaches back. Once you reach that point though, magick doesn't seem needed.

 

[blackout]

The UniVerse Becomes around us as We OurSelves Become.

When one uses symbolism, symbolic action, visualization, 'ritual'...
When one spells... and casts ... an idea to reality
with the aid of substitutionary methods...
when one brings a thing into being
through psychological 'means'...


The altar, is the magical place where we alter--
our thinking, our notions of what is and what isn't ('so'/possible).
It is the place where we mentally Set out... to initiate change.
First within,
until the grail of the Self
fills to overflowing,
and the World itself changes around us.

 

[Student of X]

Ok it makes sense that magick is speaking back to the Universe, while meditation is listening. But what does magick accomplish in 'reality' then, because this explanation doesn't seem to view magick as purely psychological.

I think magick is a way to help "come into being" as the Setians will say. You reach out, then the Universe reaches back. Once you reach that point though, magick doesn't seem needed.

Have you read many parapsychology journals or books?