Meditation v. Magick

[Adramelek]

Another interesting point about the practice of Magic and Magical Intitiation, from a Setian Hermeticist point of view, is that it recapitulates the Rite of Opening the Mouth. The Magician begins as Osiris, a being tied to the cycles of nature. When the magician casts forth his first effective magics, the manifestations of these workings "kill" him to the natural order. He now Knows that he is capable of actions that transcend the realm of the three dimensions and five physical senses, thus he then becomes as Set, a being distinct and seperate, not bound by natural law. He becomes the god of the extension of his own existence.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Adramelek]

We listen, We contemplate, We formulate, We respond, We interact, We speak, We form, We create, and We listen once again.

It is a cyclical process.
We breathe in... We listen.
We breathe out... We Speak.

This is an excellent definition of the cycle of continuous Magical self-transformation and is one of the ways I symbolically view the Holy Pentagram. It begins at one point and eventually returns back to that point of origin, hence beginning the cycle again - ad infinitum. For once the self begins to experience its own becoming, it wants to experience it more and more. As I see it, time, space, Initiation, Xeper, are all cyclical in nature through the continual act of existencial remanifestation. Thanks for re-minding me UV!

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Octavia156]

I feel like magick is just a western version of meditation. Ever notice the similarities between paths like Thelema and Taoism? The LHP groups seem to be tapping into more ancient things before the Abrahamic nonsense.

:yes:

 

[Me Myself]

Dratz! I apologize, I just NOW see this is a DIR.


Good thing my answers were agreed upon or invited though, but I probably should cease any other elaboration now o.o.

Sorry for the inconviniences :cover:

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Dratz! I apologize, I just NOW see this is a DIR.


Good thing my answers were agreed upon or invited though, but I probably should cease any other elaboration now o.o.

Sorry for the inconviniences :cover:

You outed yourself! You could have blended in like a ninja...but now you must die. :yes:

 

[1137]

Dratz! I apologize, I just NOW see this is a DIR.


Good thing my answers were agreed upon or invited though, but I probably should cease any other elaboration now o.o.

Sorry for the inconviniences :cover:

Wow... I didn't even suspect you were in the wrong place haha. Even your religion, "All I Am" is easily perceived as LHP.

 

[Me Myself]

Well, I haven´t looked in further enough LHP to know if it is "right" or "wrong" pace for me xD.

Maybe it is on of the many both "right" and "Wrong" at the same time places like a lot of others xD.

I mostly think I don´t "practice" LHP things so I should leave it at that, but yeah I think my opinions of a lot of things could be similar and when it comes to esoteric approaches and stuff I do believe LHP works if done succesfully (for what I´ve heard at least) but I also think I´ve heard that a lot of LHP practitioners see magic as only a subconscious placebo effect for the magician? I am sure it has some of that but also sure it can affect reality if you choose to let it.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Another interesting point about the practice of Magic and Magical Intitiation, from a Setian Hermeticist point of view, is that it recapitulates the Rite of Opening the Mouth. The Magician begins as Osiris, a being tied to the cycles of nature. When the magician casts forth his first effective magics, the manifestations of these workings "kill" him to the natural order. He now Knows that he is capable of actions that transcend the realm of the three dimensions and five physical senses, thus he then becomes as Set, a being distinct and seperate, not bound by natural law. He becomes the god of the extension of his own existence.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

Then he becomes like the God of the Old Testament, who was not bound by the universal principles that applied to deities at the center of Indo-European religions, as well as those of most other human societies around the world. Interesting tie in with Satan as a functionary of the OT God.

 

[aa_nerut]

Kori,
This is off topic, but what might be worth a read is so of the work by G. A. Wainwright.He has shown some very interesting ideas about the "Storm God" concept, which is not always about water rain, but can be about rain in the form of Meteorites. Set, Min (and following Min came Amun), YHVH, Allah, Zeus, each one of these have a very interesting tie that binds them together as Storm Gods, or Gods of the Meteorite, an event thought of as something outside of nature by many ancient cultures. Each one of these is in some respect an Architect of the Universe, either in the typical Creator God idea, or in the "Magic is changing the self, which changes the universe around the self" idea.

The only real difference in these Things, these Gods if you will, is not in what they are, it is rather in how people experience them. The core essence of these Things, interestingly enough, seems to paint the same picture, it is only after seeing It, that things get a little screwy. It is in the devotee of the God in question, the person who "believes" they understand what this Thing really is, and what It wants, i.e. Its goals and ambitions for anything other than Itself, that becomes the problem of religious bigotry, hatred and acts of violence rather than the potential for the "Enlightening of the Meteorites impact", the knowledge gained from the Thing Outside of Nature that "should" be the goal. (I put should in quotation marks to emphasis my own interpretation of experiencing that Thing Outside of Nature and the goal that I personally think should be aimed at after witnessing It. I am of course completely open to the idea that this is my own flavor of how things "should" unfold.)

As far as the idea of Magic vs Meditation, I think an interesting idea to follow is Flow state and a beautiful discussion call "A Naturalistic Account of Qi" by John Vervaeke, ([youtube]vcp6J1T60qc[/youtube]
John Vervaeke - Chi Explained Without Magic - YouTube) might just be a worth while watch for a better explanation than a "trance state", as I think we should really be getting more precise with our definitions of these things. It also is rather telling of how in the Flow state gesturing becomes very much a part of the experience, which explains why dance is not just a meditative activity but can also just as well be a platform for Magic, which really should be better said any movement base activity such as dance, qigong, taiji, martial arts, running etc. It might well be that Meditation and Magic might not be that far removed from each other, as they both can produce the same "Change the Self, Which Changes the Universe Around Me", idea.

 

[Orias]

So I see a lot of posts in the DIR about magick, doing rituals or ceremonies to cause change in your life. Some people seem to think of it in a supernatural way, which I am not really into. I recognize that the use of ritual and symbolism is extremely powerful psychologically, but what is that really accomplishing? Magick is a more complicated way of positive thinking, praying, wishing, hoping, etc it seems. I have also seen "rituals" where you simply light a candle in the dark and feel the powers of darkness, whatever that means to people.

Well the main point is the psychodramatic effect.

Its whatever draws you to life, and attempts to define the end.

Magic in a way, is only revealing to those who actually find it and don't just read about it.

Anyone can say this is how someone does this or how someone does that, but I think the more important thing is how you emphasize your existence.

So any form of "ritualization" is indeed a sort of meditation, but really what defines magic is the user. I'm sure a priest is less likely to admit to the use of magic simply because of "what it is".

So what is magick really? Is it simply a placebo effect of the mind?

That depends on if you can taste sugar.

Personally, if nothing is actually happening I see no point in practicing it.

Nothing is pretty circular, so whether you see no point in practicing or not you really are, in all "moments".

Thats how I see it anyways, I always question nothingness and what nothing is, but I see label and then I see outside of me.

It gets me everytime, though I know how to use it "realistically".

Or, is it more like mysticism and meditation, tapping into something deeper than ourselves?

Me-be

If this is the case, where is a line drawn between magick and meditation?

Even if you draw a line, what is stopping me from stepping over it?

I do indeed draw many lines that many people step over. Most of the time its because they don't see them, or they chose not to.

The way I hear magick talked about is very mystical, which is why meditation is almost always involved.

I'm one to believe that meditation is hardly a static thing.

So are we changing things on a higher spiritual level, because from what I know many LHP followers are not really spiritual in any way.

Where did you observe this?

Ah, ranting and no idea what I am trying to say.

Welcome aboard

 

[Adramelek]

Ok, lets get real here. All human beings utilize magic in their lives. What is magic? All Magic begins as a thought or an idea in the mind, or a desire, a want, a need in the Heart that is actualized in the real world through the deliberate exercise of the will. Most of the time we begin working towards these manifestations of will without ritual invocation and trappings. Magical ritual is a tool and some of us utilize it to magnify our focus of will to inflame our ambition with a greater sense of purpose that is just as real and just as true as any truth. This is where the objective and subjective universes become infused as a part of our own self-created reality, also known as the Magical Link.​

Sometimes we utilize ritual, sometimes not, it all depends on how strong we feel towards the manifestation of our ambitions and desires in life, how strong we may think their manifestation will exalt and empower us in our life's quest for continued self-becoming. There is a difference between the magical and the mundane realm. The magician is not confined to dogmatic, short sited views of the world around him - by virtue of his very "nature" he has become a being distinct and seperate, a being who strives to become liberated from the mass herd mentality mind-control perpetrated upon mankind for thousands of years of christian moral dictates devised by the christian fathers. Whose own GBM goal was/is to gain totalitarian rule over the minds and thoughts of the masses.​

Furthermore, what better champion, or role model for the freedom of mind and will, liberty of being, for the walker of the Left-Hand Path than the most ancient god-form of all rebels against Cosmic injustice - Set, or Satan, the Prince of Darkness, etc. and so forth? For some He/It is just a symbol or a metaphor, for others He/It has become very real - the most ancient of travelers on the Path of Darkness. Also, who are we to argue against the individualist idealists that help to define our way in a world of moral purists who seek to control the mind, body, and soul of the masses even still today?! The Idea of Individualism should be our war cry - Know the Magical Power of an Idea! :bat:​

Xeper.
/Adramelek\​

 

[Orias]

Spot on.

As an idea, it is a realization, allowing the potential for it to progress and manifest itself in ways that simply fold others minds in half.

Those who do not realize or close their minds to such things are only using their own self confined and self proposing utilization of magic. But that may not be what they call it, making the path and our war cries hard to hear and see.

Heh, this made me think of an episode of Full Metal Alchemist I watched a few nights ago.

One of the main characters (Al) describes pulling himself out of a body. Its very complicated as the story is pretty well developed. Though I guess you would have to be able to tolerate anime, assuming anyone can relate to what I am pushing forth.

But then again, relating doesn't really make individuals does it?

 

[Iti oj]

hmm well ok, tell me about any paranormal experiences you may have had and about your religious background.

Sorry it took me so long to reply.

can you define what you mean by paranormal experiences?

I was baptized raised and confirmed catholic. I use to be very active in the church, i was even preparing to become a priest. Then one mass, while i was alter serving, father gave his sermon on Mathews 6, everything changed. (to many commas) First i lost my faith in organized churches and began to study. , but quickly i found myself take to drudaic and shamanistic paths. it was to late the seeker was born. So i studied magic and estoritic knowledge deeper and deeper. i paracticed magic while holding animistic and pantheistic ideas. I briefly worshiped inanan. But tis wasnt me. so i came back to an impersonal nature. science particular evolution and quantum physics took the spotlight. This made me realize i was an atheist and the next chapter began. something drove me to forums......something personal made me more interested in islam. an atheist forum i was home at had a thread up about an Islamic forum and a post about their "sexist rules" So we planned a troll attack. Once we the attack began i realized our initial intel was false on all practical levels, and more importantly, these were good nice people who were just happy to have non Muslims to talk to. better yet i liked them. though i did not start the invasion i called it to a stop on my home forum and made a public apology on the Islamic forum and declared my intent to stay as a positive member and invited my fellows to join me. most apologized a few stayed(over 2 years). Our presence cause both more Muslims and non Muslims to join. The staff was overwhelmed and ut notice that they were accepting apps for a new mod. i applied and wrote a 3 pages essay. they accepting me, i was now the defender and promoter of all other faiths and non faiths....they even changed their religion fill into world view....around the same time i helped resurrected, repopulate and run an atheist/humanism forum. but i was getting bored and missed magic so i joined a pagan/wiccian/magic forum. the admin was a ***** but the members were amazing. I accidentally usurped the admins powers and sway and a war was waged, so i lead the exidous to a new home and the declared me the god iti oj. since i was an atheist they found this ironic,but my godhood was about overcoming these contradictions and holding other beliefs . Of course i found ways to try and practice all religions in real life i used what i learned discussed and debated online as a way to walk as many faiths and ideas as possible.

What do i actually believe? im an atheist emperisist with a bit of hype on the subjective experience and the power of our senses. i practice magic and animism. ...
i cast and write spells mostly for others, simply because they ask em to and find my spells super effective, damn you psychology of human relations and communications.
these barely even scratches the surface. .... nor does it cover any of my adventures at music festivals i frequent and work

 

[Mindmaster]

The measure of hypnosis, neuro-linguistic programming (really, just a self-hypnotic method), magick, and meditation is achievement of a trance and desired results. They are all the same thing, but most of these names were invented to sell books. Caveat Emptor!

Fear of course is always the best obstacle to any spiritual practice, and depending upon your psychological makeup some or all of these may not be accessible to you... It really doesn't matter which does work for you they all work _the same way_ when done properly... I find shamanistic methods rather silly considering my upbringing, but if they work for you they will do so in the way that a more internal process will. Obviously, this would go without saying but it doesn't matter how you get there. It's such a simple process, but learning to control it is the pain of the situation. Many find ritual processes the same, and go and do NLP or whatever.

These altered consciousness states are reachable by at least twenty or thirty different methods I know. The mechanics of the situation form rules but the aesthetics are up you, and so long as you know that you will do well. =) I will disagree with the idea that magic is everything though -- without the requisite trance you are merely walking around doing mundane things. In the state that I achieve personally I would find it nearly impossible to buy groceries or speak with someone in most cases being far too deeply removed from my own rational consciousness to interact in a normal way. The rational mind is good at handling it's chores -- but the subconscious/collective mind works better for other things. Despite all the hoodoo nearly everyone has been in that state at least once in their life.. generally if you have trouble sleeping for example.. but don't really wake up... You've also been there if you drank so much you've blotted out your memory and continued to remain conscious -- the recall in chemical methods is very bad though. it's a healthy normal place and not nearly as special as it seems... but once you gain conscious control of it your world will change forever.

-Mind

 

[Octavia156]

Ok, lets get real here. All human beings utilize magic in their lives. What is magic? All Magic begins as a thought or an idea in the mind, or a desire, a want, a need in the Heart that is actualized in the real world through the deliberate exercise of the will. Most of the time we begin working towards these manifestations of will without ritual invocation and trappings. Magical ritual is a tool and some of us utilize it to magnify our focus of will to inflame our ambition with a greater sense of purpose that is just as real and just as true as any truth. This is where the objective and subjective universes become infused as a part of our own self-created reality, also known as the Magical Link.​

Sometimes we utilize ritual, sometimes not, it all depends on how strong we feel towards the manifestation of our ambitions and desires in life, how strong we may think their manifestation will exalt and empower us in our life's quest for continued self-becoming. There is a difference between the magical and the mundane realm. The magician is not confined to dogmatic, short sited views of the world around him - by virtue of his very "nature" he has become a being distinct and seperate, a being who strives to become liberated from the mass herd mentality mind-control perpetrated upon mankind for thousands of years of christian moral dictates devised by the christian fathers. Whose own GBM goal was/is to gain totalitarian rule over the minds and thoughts of the masses.​

Furthermore, what better champion, or role model for the freedom of mind and will, liberty of being, for the walker of the Left-Hand Path than the most ancient god-form of all rebels against Cosmic injustice - Set, or Satan, the Prince of Darkness, etc. and so forth? For some He/It is just a symbol or a metaphor, for others He/It has become very real - the most ancient of travelers on the Path of Darkness. Also, who are we to argue against the individualist idealists that help to define our way in a world of moral purists who seek to control the mind, body, and soul of the masses even still today?! The Idea of Individualism should be our war cry - Know the Magical Power of an Idea! :bat:​

Xeper.
/Adramelek\​

"Do what thou wilt shall be the the whole of the Law, Brother Adramelek... that is The War-Cry! The Idea of Individualism, that Knows the Magickal Power of Will

93,93/93

 

[Adramelek]

"Do what thou wilt shall be the the whole of the Law, Brother Adramelek... that is The War-Cry! The Idea of Individualism, that Knows the Magickal Power of Will

93,93/93

Ave, Sister Octavia, good to hear from you again. I do understand your point and it is valid. Frubals coming your way.

Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\