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Members leaving -- and religious debate.

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I've been thinking about the announcements of a couple of members (one a staff member) leaving Religious Forums, usually because of dissatisfaction with how religious debate typically goes. And I think nobody would deny that such debates can become contentious, difficult, and possibly hurtful to those whose beliefs are deeply held and important in their lives.

As an atheist, I can tell you that the same is true in reverse -- every atheist on the Forum can tell you about the threats of eternal punishment that frequently put an end to discussion.

But it seems to me, that engaging in religious debate puts you in the position of having to defend your beliefs -- and this is just as true for atheists: we have to defend how our morals and ethics are guided without divine command, and without promises of reward or threat of punishment. If this is not something that you can comfortably do, I think that engaging in the first place may well be wrong for you.

Religious debates are often centered on the truth claims made by different faiths. Whether these claims involve the nature of divinity, moral laws, or the afterlife, they are usually fundamental to a believer’s worldview. Therefore, when a person chooses to engage in religious debate, they are expected to present and defend the core beliefs of their faith, particularly its claims to truth. Failure to do so diminishes the purpose of the debate, turning it into an exchange of opinions rather than a meaningful exploration of differing worldviews.

To debate religion without addressing its truth claims is akin to debating scientific theories without considering evidence. The objective of religious debate is often to explore which worldview is more coherent, logically sound, or consistent with human experience. If one party refuses to defend their religion’s truth, the debate becomes unbalanced and one-sided. One person may present logical or empirical challenges, but without a defense from the other side, these challenges go unanswered. This not only weakens the debate but can lead to an erosion of credibility for the individual’s religious stance.

Moreover, if a person’s beliefs are deeply personal, they may be reluctant to expose them to scrutiny, viewing their faith as beyond rational inquiry or criticism. While this is understandable, it is a position incompatible with public debate. When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique. A refusal to defend their faith’s truth claims signals that they are unwilling to engage in the very activity the debate demands.

Religious discussions, by their nature, grapple with existential and universal questions—ones that are crucial to our understanding of human life, ethics, and meaning. If a participant is unwilling to defend the truth claims of their religion, they should refrain from debate altogether. Doing so respects both the integrity of the discussion and the diverse perspectives of others. In contrast, entering a debate with no intention of defending one’s views only hinders genuine dialogue and the pursuit of understanding.
Truth must be tested. If it is truth it can withstand the most severe scrutiny and it should be put under the spotlight. But individuals should act with courtesy, dignity and respect towards one another. I love this place because I learn from others, I learn about myself and improve my understanding of people. I think though there are some who just come to mock and condescend and are not interested in learning anything. They have made up their mind and are just here to mock religionists or atheists not explore and learn. They are the ones who never contribute meaningfully but just make fun of others views for some warped form of fun.

Im a religionist but a human being and I have the deepest respect for atheists and I share many of their views as I believe religion has gone astray. Many atheists are humanists too and that makes them quality people with high ideals and they ask good questions not mocking condescending stuff which I feel very happy to converse with them and I learn a lot from people who are not into religion as it has largely failed us so far in this age but it may still eventually have something constructive to offer.

i love coming here and sharing. As for the mocking, condescending and belittling I just leave those people to themselves and avoid them as it’s all a sport to them to ridicule and condemn others. I’m not into that. I come to learn and share and respect all others as equals.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
At the end of the day, the fact remains that several groups that purport to be religious in nature have increasingly engaged in political matters with no regard for the consequences and promoting ever more jaundiced, deformed notions - to the point of endangering both the political systems and the general communities.

That is not something that can be honorably glossed over.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Personally I'm not attracted to debates about one's beliefs because the core is belief or lack thereof and that's not subject to a debate.

@JustGeorge 's interviews are interesting because people can discuss what they believe and why and I learn something from them. And there are threads that focus on exegesis which can be interesting and even debated. And I've found most of the people here to be better than the average and some much better than the average denizen of the internet.

I know some want things to be better but I'm too old to expect miracles and if there's nothing of interest in religious threads I'm happy to hang out in joke threads for which I'm really grateful.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In a discussion forum people should have to defend and beliefs against questioning and polite challenges. They shouldn't have to defend them against insults.
Agreed, but we do.

Did you notice who brought personal insults to the discussion?

A poster declared that she was unhappy hearing other views that she called woke and having her stated beliefs challenged, and that she was leaving RF because of that. I told her that she was probably correct in leaving if that's how she felt, and she ended up insulting me personally twice, first telling me that she wouldn't miss me and then calling me psychopathic.

The rules in her mind are different for "thee and me." I supported her decision to leave if these discussions were unhealthy for her in her mind, and I had to hear about how little she thinks of me. I didn't demean her person nor ask her for her (derogatory) opinion of me, but I got it anyway. This is where the discussion went south.

This is one reason I disapprove of Abrahamic theism. Who else behaves that way defending their religious beliefs? Who else sees themselves as good, right, and holy, and implies that those with whom they disagree are immoral? I blame their religions for making them that way, and as I implied in my posting, now that skeptics have a voice and a platform to dissent, these people who are not used to being disagreed with about their cherished religious beliefs become emotional and make it personal.

So should we protect their feelings and remain silent like our forebears were forced to do or just let them react however they will and let them deal with their reactions themselves? I'm not going to soften such arguments because some RF posters can't read them without an emotional and personal reaction.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I've been thinking about the announcements of a couple of members (one a staff member) leaving Religious Forums, usually because of dissatisfaction with how religious debate typically goes. And I think nobody would deny that such debates can become contentious, difficult, and possibly hurtful to those whose beliefs are deeply held and important in their lives.

As an atheist, I can tell you that the same is true in reverse -- every atheist on the Forum can tell you about the threats of eternal punishment that frequently put an end to discussion.

But it seems to me, that engaging in religious debate puts you in the position of having to defend your beliefs -- and this is just as true for atheists: we have to defend how our morals and ethics are guided without divine command, and without promises of reward or threat of punishment. If this is not something that you can comfortably do, I think that engaging in the first place may well be wrong for you.

Religious debates are often centered on the truth claims made by different faiths. Whether these claims involve the nature of divinity, moral laws, or the afterlife, they are usually fundamental to a believer’s worldview. Therefore, when a person chooses to engage in religious debate, they are expected to present and defend the core beliefs of their faith, particularly its claims to truth. Failure to do so diminishes the purpose of the debate, turning it into an exchange of opinions rather than a meaningful exploration of differing worldviews.

To debate religion without addressing its truth claims is akin to debating scientific theories without considering evidence. The objective of religious debate is often to explore which worldview is more coherent, logically sound, or consistent with human experience. If one party refuses to defend their religion’s truth, the debate becomes unbalanced and one-sided. One person may present logical or empirical challenges, but without a defense from the other side, these challenges go unanswered. This not only weakens the debate but can lead to an erosion of credibility for the individual’s religious stance.

Moreover, if a person’s beliefs are deeply personal, they may be reluctant to expose them to scrutiny, viewing their faith as beyond rational inquiry or criticism. While this is understandable, it is a position incompatible with public debate. When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique. A refusal to defend their faith’s truth claims signals that they are unwilling to engage in the very activity the debate demands.

Religious discussions, by their nature, grapple with existential and universal questions—ones that are crucial to our understanding of human life, ethics, and meaning. If a participant is unwilling to defend the truth claims of their religion, they should refrain from debate altogether. Doing so respects both the integrity of the discussion and the diverse perspectives of others. In contrast, entering a debate with no intention of defending one’s views only hinders genuine dialogue and the pursuit of understanding.
You reminded me of a wonderful Jewish tale:
Why did God create atheists?
A Rabbi is teaching his student the Talmud, and explains that God created everything in this world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.​
The clever student asks "What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?"​
The Rabbi responds "God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all -- the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone who is in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. and look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right."​
"This means" the Rabbi continued "that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say 'I pray that God will help you.' instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.'"​
 
This is one reason I disapprove of Abrahamic theism. Who else behaves that way defending their religious beliefs? Who else sees themselves as good, right, and holy, and implies that those with whom they disagree are immoral?

Who else indeed?

You’d never see a Progressive Secular Humanist adopting a supercilious, holier than thou attitude :D

The complete absence of self-awareness is hilarious.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Those of us who've been on the forum for a long time have seen rashes of people leaving for various reasons. It's always sad to see folks leave, especially when they've developed relationships with other members.

But humans are always in flux and sometimes they come back and sometimes they don't. I've had to take breaks myself at time.

I suspect the RF staff use subliminal messaging to keep us coming back. Those that never come back must use some sort of de-programming to stay away.

Sometimes RF is super contentious, and sometimes it isn't. Some people realize this isn't the place for them.

There's truth to the idiom of avoiding politics and religion (and the Great Pumpkin). It's gets personal and has real impact on people (especially politics). I have found myself getting emotionally heated discussing these things. Breaks help with that, but I think it's unavoidable with these topics.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique.
I would recommend that you check that assumption at the door. There are different forms of questioning and critique ranging from asking questions simply to understand and to learn versus asking questions to belittle and diminish others. The second of these is why members leave, and it happens more often than it should. There is no invisible, inherent agreement here.

In contrast, entering a debate with no intention of defending one’s views only hinders genuine dialogue and the pursuit of understanding.
Except it doesn't.

The pursuit of understanding doesn't require attackers and defenders. If anything, I would contend that making these topics into some sort of war is the problem, not the people who really, really don't like being attacked and feel like they are expected to defend the very essence of who and what they are. This silly warfare mindset is a major reason I do not bother with so-called debates. It hinders dialogue and the pursuit of understanding. If someone feels attacked and dogpiled, why on earth would they want to engage?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
A religious forum is a forum for various faiths. Many atheists don't even like the idea of "faith" and claim that their beliefs are really "lack of beliefs" and that there is no faith involved in their worldview. This seems to be a lack of insight on the part of the atheist.
It's not a lack of insight on the atheists' part. The theists who claim that atheism is a religion or a belief system, and requires faith itself, tend to switch the definition of the word faith. This error is revealed in discourse. Yet theists, like yourself, repeat the same false clims, and atheists have to correct you again. It's clear that the search for truth tends to be what atheists seek, and theists seek ways to reinforce beliefs that they have adopted from their social exprience.
So an atheist is arguing in the realm of science and empiricism and consensus views of science and scholarship, as if this is the be all and end all of the matter.
Seeking truth is consistent with acknowledging facts, and dismissing false ideas, expecially those that are inconsistent with facts and knowledge. Theists often object to their religious ideas not being considered true by those who aim to have valid knowledge. The Abrahamic religions evolved to have a framework that is that as factually true. In hindsight a better approach would be more symbolic as Hinduism tends to be. It's an accident that the age of reason and science has revealed, and only caused stress of the faith systems. As we see Jews and Catholics have adjusted to science and knowledge better than other religious frameworks.
I suppose it makes for an unsatisfying discussion or debate when the whole discussion comes from such opposing pov.
Why would discourse that distills truth from falsehoods be unsatisfying?
I find myself leaving discussions because I have to repeat myself to an ever increasing number of atheists who are attacking the same things in what I am saying.
You get trapped into dilemmas of your own making.
This of course may lead those atheists to think that means that I cannot answer their comments, and so they have won the debate. I cannot really help this outcome.
Anyone can resvond to a question, but did they answer, and with a truthful statement? This is the dilemma for many with strong religious views, they just don't correspond to what we observe as true and real. That is the theist's lesson.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I would recommend that you check that assumption at the door. There are different forms of questioning and critique ranging from asking questions simply to understand and to learn versus asking questions to belittle and diminish others. The second of these is why members leave, and it happens more often than it should. There is no invisible, inherent agreement here.


Except it doesn't.

The pursuit of understanding doesn't require attackers and defenders.
But isn't this response an attack on what @Evangelicalhumanist wrote? If it's not an attack then what defines an attack from a disagreement?

If anything, I would contend that making these topics into some sort of war is the problem, not the people who really, really don't like being attacked and feel like they are expected to defend the very essence of who and what they are.
I don't get the sense that most topics are a war. I see occassional topics that assert strong religious views that claim a trusth it can't demonstrate. Those folks are posting on an open and diverse forum for a reason, and they invite criticism as a default. They may get in over their heads if they have never really experienced well informed critical thinkers, but that is the lesson they have opted to have plopped in their lap.

Back in the old Beleifnet days the community was very tight, much like this one. There were the atheists and the variety of theists. For years the adversaarial nature was theist versus atheist. As time went on there were more evangelicals, and they attacked (I use your word here because they were quite mean and certain in their views) everyone. There were Wiccans (like Carla), witches, a Satanist (Nick from England who was a fantastic guy), and some Eastern religious folks. Oddly the forum evolved into an alliance between the atheists and liberal/moderate Christians, Jews, Wiccans, and others against the evangelicals. One of them was an actual Nazi, and had no shame in expressing her views. I'm forgetting her name, but she wanted to be one of the "cool kids" who were part of the alliance, but she didn't understand that her views were offensive. This taught us how to accept the views of others as long as they accepted us in a mutual respect. This is all basic social contract theory.

I can draw a parallel to what in happening in US politics with all the diverse Harris supporters in contrast to the Trump supporters and their often offensive and untrue rhetoric.
This silly warfare mindset is a major reason I do not bother with so-called debates.
What distinguishes a "so-called debate" from a real debate?
It hinders dialogue and the pursuit of understanding. If someone feels attacked and dogpiled, why on earth would they want to engage?
If truth is the aim of debate then wouldn't an attack be against truth? I say to mean actual truth, that which conforms to what is true and factual. I don't consider personal meaning via some ideological framework as truth or objectively true. I think the way some believers use an ideological framework as a learned dilemma, as they treat this framework as automatically true but have never really subjected it to critical thought. I don't mind people having a framework, as long as they understand it is what it is. Krishnamurti talked about how humans do not have freedom if they are absorbed in a dogma that they can't understand as a construct of their minds. Freedom comes from being able to understand the illusions are subject to judgment, and can be abandoned. The freedom isn't being free of the dogma, but of having the discipline of mind to understand what the dogma is, and that it's a choice.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would recommend that you check that assumption at the door. There are different forms of questioning and critique ranging from asking questions simply to understand and to learn versus asking questions to belittle and diminish others. The second of these is why members leave, and it happens more often than it should. There is no invisible, inherent agreement here.
That was a response to, "When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique."

He specified debate, which is dialectic, or the method of resolving differences of opinion about what is true. Scientific peer review, formal debate, and courtroom trials all utilize this method of argument followed by a counterargument meant to falsify the argument. Debate ends with the last plausible, unrebutted claim

Let's illustrate with the courtroom model. A couple of attorneys attempt to falsify one another's argument with counterarguments. In a court of law, that begins with an opening statement by the prosecution and a theory of a crime. If this argument is convincing to a jury and not successfully rebutted, it's time for a verdict: guilty. But perhaps the defense can poke a hole in that theory, maybe by offering an alibi for the defendant. Perhaps there is cell tower ping data suggesting that the defendant wasn't present at the scene of the crime.

If this isn't rebutted, it becomes the last plausible unrebutted argument, and the jury is ready to vote for acquittal. But then, the prosecution produces photos of the suspect near the scene of the crime around the time it was committed, resuscitating the original theory of guilt. And once again, if this cannot be successfully rebutted - if it cannot be shown that the prosecution cannot be right - the debate is over and the jury able to convict. This is dialectic. Any other form of discussion is useless in deciding matters. And if an attorney doesn't even try to rebut his counterpart, his client loses the case

These are academic traditions, and those familiar with them generally learned dialectic, critical analysis, and the academic even and unemotional demeanor following years of higher education. The problem arises when those unfamiliar with these methods and habits of comportment are exposed to it and experience it as an affront, become offended and emotional, and either retreat or attack - both inappropriate in the academic settings I described, where all that is done is to agree or disagree and present a counterargument.
The pursuit of understanding doesn't require attackers and defenders. If anything, I would contend that making these topics into some sort of war is the problem, not the people who really, really don't like being attacked and feel like they are expected to defend the very essence of who and what they are. This silly warfare mindset is a major reason I do not bother with so-called debates. It hinders dialogue and the pursuit of understanding. If someone feels attacked and dogpiled, why on earth would they want to engage?
You just described the perception of attack and war I described. I don't experience debate as war, but I'm a product of that academic culture, where I learned that none of this is personal and learned to not feel personally attacked by dialectic or to react emotionally.

So what's one to do given this situation? I addressed this earlier when I wore, "So should we protect their feelings and remain silent like our forebears were forced to do or just let them react however they will and let them deal with their reactions themselves?"

I choose the latter. If debate triggers one, that's his or responsibility to deal with, not the debater's. Either learn to not have emotional reactions like the academic has, or have them but learn to conceal them, or avoid debate whether than means simply not engaging in it here on RF or going off to find a more familiar culture where debate doesn't occur, or just being offended.

Yes, we could coddle them and protect them from ideas that offend them, which is something I might do if eating out with such a person, but this forum exists for both discussion and debate, and when in a debate forum, expect dialectic. Expect your claims to be falsified if they seem wrong to somebody with a sound counterargument, and if that triggers you, then you need to decide what to do about that. Like I said, that's a them problem to deal with as they see fit.

And people like you can learn to understand all of this and stop blaming the debater for the emotional reactions that arise or the perception of war these people have rather than trying to reform the debater with comments like, "I would recommend that you check that assumption at the door." He was correct when he wrote, "When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique." You might stop calling it war and attack and explain that it is not that nor intended to be that.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I am indifferent if people want to debate each other's religions/non religions.

I am disappointed when it comes to insults and swipes at each other.

Even if it can be worded to avoid breaking the rules, I see enough attacks on here that lead me to avoid the debates 90% of the time.

Actually, it hasn't been terrible. Even folks I strongly disagree with, many regular posters, haven't gone personal and usually stick to the issues. I think it has gotten better than from past years.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Actually, it hasn't been terrible. Even folks I strongly disagree with, many regular posters, haven't gone personal and usually stick to the issues. I think it has gotten better than from past years.
I agree.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I would recommend that you check that assumption at the door. There are different forms of questioning and critique ranging from asking questions simply to understand and to learn versus asking questions to belittle and diminish others. The second of these is why members leave, and it happens more often than it should. There is no invisible, inherent agreement here.
Well, obviously I don't think so. To begin with, I am talking about debate, not questioning. This is usually defined as a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward. Surely we don't put those opposing arguments forward in that sense to belittle others, nor do we (or should we) expect not to have them questioned. That rather defeats the whole purpose of debate, does it not?
In contrast, entering a debate with no intention of defending one’s views only hinders genuine dialogue and the pursuit of understanding.

Except it doesn't.

The pursuit of understanding doesn't require attackers and defenders. If anything, I would contend that making these topics into some sort of war is the problem, not the people who really, really don't like being attacked and feel like they are expected to defend the very essence of who and what they are. This silly warfare mindset is a major reason I do not bother with so-called debates. It hinders dialogue and the pursuit of understanding. If someone feels attacked and dogpiled, why on earth would they want to engage?
The pursuit of understanding takes many forms, and debate is among the least of these. We don't debate mathematical theorems, we prove them, and if we can't we call them conjectures. Debating whether humans have a common ancestor with chimpanzees is not likely to provide nearly as much understanding of the truth of that assumption as the continued search for fossils, both in the earth and in DNA.

It's an interesting question, when you think about, that there has been a movement towards Christian ecumenism since 1920, when the Ecumenical Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church, Germanus V of Constantinople, wrote a letter "addressed 'To all the Churches of Christ, wherever they may be', urging closer co-operation among separated Christians, and suggesting a 'League of Churches', parallel to the newly founded League of Nations," and this was realized in 1937 in the World Council of Churches. And yet, all those churches who are participating (the Roman Catholic Church only as an observer) remain separate to this day. And this is just discussion among Christians. How, one must wonder, could that ever move beyond and become the search for a "World Council of Religions" of all sorts?

Yes, except through debate, how can all religions ever hope to conform with one another, since modes of inquiry aimed at finding verifiable truth are not available?

Why does Religious Forums have a rule against proselytizing, when the goal of missionaries throughout history has been exactly that -- converting others away from their own faith and towards the faith of the missionary? Sadly, that was accomplished too often with the use of various kinds of pressure, such as superior weapons & technology.

Even now, there are questions that are being answered by religious people about non-religious subjects in a political way: the most obvious being whether LGBTQ+ people should have the same rights as everyone else. Science knows that sexual orientation and sexual identity are natural, and therefore not a religious question at all, like, for example, albinism. There are few albino people in the world, and yet their existence is perfectly natural, just uncommon. Nobody would think to disallow albinos to marry, each other, or non-albinos for that matter. In the same way, gay people (and animals), are completely natural, just uncommon. But many religions, relying on their scriptural writings, make strong and repeated efforts to enact laws against them. Doesn't this bring up the question, "which is likely to be more correct about sexual orientation among humans, scripture from 2 milennia in the past, or recent science?" And therefore which should inform law-making? Isn't debate the only way to search for some form of agreement (if not actual "understanding")?
 
Surely we don't put those opposing arguments forward in that sense to belittle others, nor do we (or should we) expect not to have them questioned. That rather defeats the whole purpose of debate, does it not?

I’d say that there might often be a difference in perception regarding these things.

From my observations, folk who take positions away from the secular, progressive orthodoxy will often be accused of having certain agendas, or being stupid or intellectually deficient in some way, or being suckered by “right wing media”, or being a bigot or having some kind of moral failing, etc.

No doubt the people doing this think they are simply “debating the facts” or offering rational insights, but that’s what everyone thinks. Few people are deliberately trying to engage in unwarranted personal attacks, they simply think they are attacking the thinking not the person.

As people tend to assume beliefs “cluster”, they often also assume arguing X also means you think Y.

So while individuals may think their responses Are perfectly reasonable and evidence based, the person presenting the minority position is often getting multiple replies that misrepresent their views and the reasons they hold them while being attacked for being mentally or morally deficient.

Think if you posted on a forum where 80% of people were MAGA how often your motives and arguments would be misrepresented and twisted in a big pile on.

Can you imagine that kind of thing might get annoying for some folk, and that this wouldn’t simply be them being unable to have their ideas held up to rational debate?
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Those of us who've been on the forum for a long time have seen rashes of people leaving for various reasons. It's always sad to see folks leave, especially when they've developed relationships with other members.

But humans are always in flux and sometimes they come back and sometimes they don't. I've had to take breaks myself at time.

I suspect the RF staff use subliminal messaging to keep us coming back. Those that never come back must use some sort of de-programming to stay away.

Sometimes RF is super contentious, and sometimes it isn't. Some people realize this isn't the place for them.

There's truth to the idiom of avoiding politics and religion (and the Great Pumpkin). It's gets personal and has real impact on people (especially politics). I have found myself getting emotionally heated discussing these things. Breaks help with that, but I think it's unavoidable with these topics.
But it's excellent practice in dealing with the real world if you stay aware. If you can maintain civility in a heated political discourse, you're better prepared to properly deal with that aggressive driver or rude clerk.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
That was a response to, "When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique."

He specified debate, which is dialectic, or the method of resolving differences of opinion about what is true. Scientific peer review, formal debate, and courtroom trials all utilize this method of argument followed by a counterargument meant to falsify the argument. Debate ends with the last plausible, unrebutted claim

Let's illustrate with the courtroom model. A couple of attorneys attempt to falsify one another's argument with counterarguments. In a court of law, that begins with an opening statement by the prosecution and a theory of a crime. If this argument is convincing to a jury and not successfully rebutted, it's time for a verdict: guilty. But perhaps the defense can poke a hole in that theory, maybe by offering an alibi for the defendant. Perhaps there is cell tower ping data suggesting that the defendant wasn't present at the scene of the crime.

If this isn't rebutted, it becomes the last plausible unrebutted argument, and the jury is ready to vote for acquittal. But then, the prosecution produces photos of the suspect near the scene of the crime around the time it was committed, resuscitating the original theory of guilt. And once again, if this cannot be successfully rebutted - if it cannot be shown that the prosecution cannot be right - the debate is over and the jury able to convict. This is dialectic. Any other form of discussion is useless in deciding matters. And if an attorney doesn't even try to rebut his counterpart, his client loses the case

These are academic traditions, and those familiar with them generally learned dialectic, critical analysis, and the academic even and unemotional demeanor following years of higher education. The problem arises when those unfamiliar with these methods and habits of comportment are exposed to it and experience it as an affront, become offended and emotional, and either retreat or attack - both inappropriate in the academic settings I described, where all that is done is to agree or disagree and present a counterargument.

You just described the perception of attack and war I described. I don't experience debate as war, but I'm a product of that academic culture, where I learned that none of this is personal and learned to not feel personally attacked by dialectic or to react emotionally.

So what's one to do given this situation? I addressed this earlier when I wore, "So should we protect their feelings and remain silent like our forebears were forced to do or just let them react however they will and let them deal with their reactions themselves?"

I choose the latter. If debate triggers one, that's his or responsibility to deal with, not the debater's. Either learn to not have emotional reactions like the academic has, or have them but learn to conceal them, or avoid debate whether than means simply not engaging in it here on RF or going off to find a more familiar culture where debate doesn't occur, or just being offended.

Yes, we could coddle them and protect them from ideas that offend them, which is something I might do if eating out with such a person, but this forum exists for both discussion and debate, and when in a debate forum, expect dialectic. Expect your claims to be falsified if they seem wrong to somebody with a sound counterargument, and if that triggers you, then you need to decide what to do about that. Like I said, that's a them problem to deal with as they see fit.

And people like you can learn to understand all of this and stop blaming the debater for the emotional reactions that arise or the perception of war these people have rather than trying to reform the debater with comments like, "I would recommend that you check that assumption at the door." He was correct when he wrote, "When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique." You might stop calling it war and attack and explain that it is not that nor intended to be that.
I find it pretty easy to recognize those who have never experienced true debate protocol. It turns into argument which easily slides into personal slander. Modern day political "debates" certainly do not help.

I do not have a higher education, but I did learn debate procedures and experienced the process in high school. I think the most valuable aspect was being assigned the position that you did not agree with. It's much like the defense councils position when they're pretty sure their client is guilty. You do the research and head into presentation armed with fact that will support your position and try to sway the matter away from other truths. Using this tactic does indeed cause tempers to flare here at RF. But it can be such a learning experience if kept on target.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Yup, that's us from the old Bnet days. And Rider is here too. That's four of us. Little by little we will take over this forum. There's a Facebook page for the old gang from Beliefnet.
So your goal is to take over this forum?
Why would non-religious people want to take over a religious forum where people discuss their faith/belief?

Is life that boring for you?
What drives you to try to accomplish the take over?
 
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