Merciful God?? I think not.

[Linda777]

=Paroxys;1343614]How can the Bible be true if it contradicts itself?

Because you say so? It doesn't, but the rumor started by pagans and atheists and so called scholars say it does and this now why you believe it. Any sincere seeker will not find one contradiction because it isn't there. The Bible tells one story, the story of Jesus Christ. Have you heard of him or did you get lost in the shuffle when the atheists and pagans were spreading their false rumors about God's book?

And what do you say to those who've tried to seek but have found nothing? What if we'ver asked, and heard nothing but silence? Are you going to claim we didn't seek hard enough, or weren't seeking the proper way? Kind of a contradiction of your purported "if we seek he will come" framework.

I can see by your attitude why God would resist you. Your arrogant "if we seek he will come" mockery of God's holiness is proof.

...Are you kidding me. Christianity is the over-arching broad religion and Catholicism is a branch, just because it's not the branch you particularly endorse doesn't mean you can exclude from common definition. Oh, and if you really want to be Biblical about it, Christianity back in biblical days wasn't Christianity, it was Judaism.

You are way off. Now I can see how you think. Christianity was never Judaism. Your above statement is indicative of your completed ignorance of the Bible and history and Judaism. Saying Christianity was Judaism is ignorance what else can I call it without being insulting? I don't mean to insult anyone, but that is quite a booo boo on your part. I can see into your thinking with that statement. I can prove it also if I have to.
The teachings of the Bible and the teachings of the RCC are as different as night and day. Peter was not a pope. Mary didn't ascend to heaven. The priesthood is no longer needed since Jesus our high priest who came from Judah's tribe and not Levi's tells it all. Read Romans and Hebrews. Youa re way off.

So being a follower of Christ is mutually exclusive of being a killer? Is this the argument you're trying to make? In which case the access to what you profess is not universal, violating the precious words of what your savior purports (and what you to).
Assume someone is a follower of Christ, he/she is a soldier and is sent off to war and he fires upon some terrorists and kills them. Is he not both a Follower of Christ and a killer then?

America is not Israe! America is not the church of Jesus Christ! Why is it hard for you to see that? Jesus told his followers to love their enemies. Repeat America is not Israel and America is not the church of Jesus Christ. America is in fact the revived Roman Empire. The United States is in every way the ancient Roman Imperial system under a new name. The deadly wound of the beast was healed in 1776. Study some history and the Bible.

Or if your argument is, since "good is greater than evil" if someone is a killer and a follower of Christ, the follower of Christ supersedes the killer part, and thus he is absolved of all sin. This brings up a paradox, since they can not follow the words of Christ (by being a killer or thief or etc) yet still be a follower of Christ. Also this has some rather grim implications suggesting that a mass murderer could indeed be a "follower of Christ."

If you sin you die. It is that simple. Sin is separation from God and has really nothing to do with legalities or the USA.
No Christian kills but America does and calls it good.
Christians do not kill. Period. America does. America is not a follower of Jesus and is not Israel and is not the church. I never said it was.
Obviously you do not know what a follower of Christ is. You think it is Americans killing and maiming and God is in it. No he is not in it. He died for ALL people everywhere in every land.
Don't confuse Christianity with wicked America the revived Roman Empire.

No. This statement's logic is so twisted up... I don't even have a proper analogy for it.

1st off, why is good greater than evil. I'm expecting some sort of Descartian nonsense like God is good, and therefore good is greater than evil and also since good is greater than evil, God must be good, however, THAT DOESN'T WORK. IT'S CIRCULAR. IT'S NOT LOGIC, IT'S SOPHISTRY.

I ask a simple question. What dominates in the world? Good or evil? There is more grace than evil. It is obvious good is greater. Look around you. Look in yourself and tell which is greater the good in you or the evil. If one is a mass murderer, do we not go looking for him? He hides because he knows that good is greater than evil.
Listen if you think evil is greater, give your reasons and illustrations, proof and so on. You won't do it.
Circular;the old atheist stale argument which still doesn't work.

2nd off, even under your twisted "logic", you seem to suggest that God has both good and evil in him, and since good>evil, God overall is good. This does explain why there are evil things in the world, however, it violates the definition of God, that he is WHOLLY GOOD, that is ABSOLUTELY GOOD, that is NO EVIL WHATSOEVER, which begs the question, why would a wholly good God create evil if he were truly wholly Good? Answer: He isn't actually wholly good. Also apply your "one sin is enough" to God, if he created evil, despite being good, that would be his one sin, and it would be enough.

I said the Bible says God creates evil.

• (Isaiah 45:7 KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."​
• (Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
  ​

so what do you want me to do? Drink pink lemonade, dismiss those passages and say God is a soft fluffy smiling guy somewhere whose universe was invaded by evil and he didn't know and couldn't do a thing about it? I see the Bible for what it is; God's word and I also understand it.
Why don't you ask Him? He creates evil whether we understand it or not. Why are you screaming at me? I didn't write the Bible. I didn't say it. He did!
EVIL is here with us and he said he creates it. I am merely repeating what he said. Stop attacking me!
It would be sad if he didn't create it, then it would mean it is acting on its own volition.
But we have the Bible which tells us how Jesus came to rid the world of evil. This is the good news of the gospel that Christ came and became sin for us so we can made the righteousness of God in Christ.
“He who knew no sin became sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21).”
He Jesus became that sin that evil on the cross so we can become God's righteousness in Christ.

And can you honestly say, that you've followed the word of the Bible to the very truest sense 100%? The answer is No. I may not know you, but I am certain the answer is a no because you said it yourself "God made many evil things including us." Hence implying that humans are incapable of not sinning, and thus, under your logic, no one is saved.

Yes I have. I have never once stopped believing its contents are from God. I have never even once stopped loving him and trusting him no matter what. We all sin but that doesn't mean we cannot find forgiveness from God. I sin but ask forgiveness everyday. That is why Christ came.
You are looking for a pink fairy in the sky who waves a magic wand and grants wishes.
God is more than that. He is good and he is love but he also is judgment.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I find it interesting how God is said to have created evil and then went back later and tried to destroy it. That to me says that either God made a mistake and tried to correct it, or the Bible is not entirely accurate. Obviously when God created the Great Flood to cleanse the evil from the earth, he did not do a good enough job "scrubbing the corners". The way I look at things, if you are going to clean something, do it right and do it thorough or don't do it at all.

If the human race now is derived from Noah and his offspring and they were supposedly pure of heart, then we should all be theoretically the same. Was that not the whole point of it? So God destroyed all life on the face of the earth other than what was on one big boat and for what? What was gained from this? There is still evil and sin on the earth in rather large quantity. Apparently we are all sinners. If we are naturally born sinners, but when we are just "babes" we don't even understand what it means to be or do good, how could we be more good than evil? Sin is evil is it not? According to this we must be born of evil more surely than we are born of good. Even at birth, evil has apparently already defeated us which is why we must all die. Therefore we are creations of evil? Even though the good in us they say is supposedly greater than the evil, we still get punished by God? Even if all our lives we go about trying to do the right things and do good, it is still not good enough and we must be punished? WHY? The evil STILL defeats us with death. How long is God going to punish us for? I was not the one who stole that apple from the tree. It would not have been my first choice to do so. God does not realize that? God did not even give me personally a chance to prove my good nature. God automatically thinks that I am a sinner because of what someone else did? Don't blame me for another person's mistake. What happened to freedom of choice? I'm sure if God would have made 100 people in the Garden of Eden, he would have realized that not all of them were sinners. Not all of them would have stolen from the tree. Some of them would have had what is called a conscience. Maybe Adam and Eve were just really stupid. Animals don't sin, nor do trees, but they also die and animals get sick and feel pain. Why? I thought that was God's curse upon humans only? These things all seem to contradict. Where is the truth?

What happens if your brother steals something and you know it is wrong, does that make you a thief too? If my ancestor was Adolf Hitler, would that make me an evil person too? Should I be sentenced to death? Sounds like a load of crap to me. Get out of the Dark Ages already. The Crusades and Witch Trials are over. Why do Christians continue to follow a faith and scripture that seems to want to still accuse and persecute innocent people for things they never did wrong? It is immoral. It is an old faith strewn with a barbaric past. The ancient Egyptians, Mayans, and Norse peoples and many other cultures that worshiped heathen gods seemed more civilized. Those cultures just wanted to live in peace with their own gods and their own ways, but there came along the Christians and their concepts of global domination. "Our God is the only true God." Rubbish!! Perhaps the Christians today are more considerate of other ways, but they'd still have to prove it to me. I know for a fact there are more than a few truly good Christians out there. I am good friends with a few. They respect my beliefs, so I respect theirs. However, there are still many christian barbarians out there that would like to think that anyone else who doesn't wish to follow their faith deserves to go to Hell. I despise them thoroughly. I still call upon the Norse god Odin quite frequently. Odin is the ALL in ALL. Others call Odin the ALL-Father. I still cast my runes and consult with spirits. I worship and revere nature and the ways and beliefs of my earliest ancestors who were animists and shamans. My more recent ancestors were most likely Christians, but I can't do anything about that. I am a heathen and an energy worshiper and proudly so. I will always remain that way too.

I think we are all born pure without sin like the animals, but the human mind as it grows learns the capability of evil. That is why "God" apparently reveals his word to "babes", because they are pure innocence like the animals, good but not knowing evil. I don't believe we are born of sin. We become "sinners". We are left with our own choice as to what we do with it. As humans, we are still animals, we only "think" too much. Humans were never meant to eat from the "Tree of Knowledge". That knowledge of good and evil was never meant for us, yet that is exactly what we teach our children. We keep force feeding them those very same "apples". We are no better than Satan ourselves. We teach them of that knowledge they were never meant to know to begin with. We teach them what it means to be evil or how to become evil. Perhaps if I never was introduced to the bible, I would have just kept living my normal life as a generally good person. It in my own nature to be good. It was the bible that introduced me to what evil was. Before there was only good and bad, not evil.

I earnestly seek God from the heart, not from books or scripture, or degrees. What is the difference between being a highly educated Christian and a highly educated philosopher? As long as I seek with my heart, I should be able to find God. Even if I was illiterate, I should still be able to know and understand God. Even if I knew how to read and was capable of understanding the bible, but chose not to accept it because I wanted to seek God from my own heart and not some book, I should be able to do this. It should not matter what I read or what I believe, if I honestly wish to know God (if there even is a God), then God WILL find me. In all truth, I know nothing, only that I wish to seek the truth from my own heart. I trust my own heart more than I trust the teachings of the bible. I think I have a good heart, maybe God will notice. I am not going to try to put a face or name to God, for if I did that, I may be wrong. Then when I do SEE God for real, I may not realize it because of my preconceived notions of what I thought God should be. As for right now, from what I SEE of God, God is ALL things that exist. That is how I view God. Until God presents Himself to me in person as a man or being, then I will always view God as nothing less than the ALL in ALL. The term God to me is just an expression. I would rather not even use the term God. It is just easier than constantly saying the ALL in ALL. For that is what I am really referring to. Using the name Odin is about the same as using the term God. It is just an expression of something greater. Therefore, I worship Odin, the ALL in ALL, the ALL-Father. It's not the name that is important, it is the meaning behind the name which is what really matters.

 

[Paroxys]

Because you say so? It doesn't, but the rumor started by pagans and atheists and so called scholars say it does and this now why you believe it. Any sincere seeker will not find one contradiction because it isn't there. The Bible tells one story, the story of Jesus Christ. Have you heard of him or did you get lost in the shuffle when the atheists and pagans were spreading their false rumors about God's book?

Actually, the New Testament tells stories of Jesus Christ, PLURAL, each gospel is its each individual story and each account differs ever so slightly. With these differences are inconsistencies. So if you posit: the Bible is absolute truth, if the Bible has varying accounts of a particular matter, which account is "true?"

I can see by your attitude why God would resist you. Your arrogant "if we seek he will come" mockery of God's holiness is proof.

Ummm... this doesn't answer what I bring up at all, in fact you only fall precisely into what I discuss. You're the one being pretentious and arrogant here, not me. What gives you the right to judge my attempts at seeking?

You're only picking on my word choice here, so let me rephrase and use your words. If we seek Him, and yet do not find Him, what then?

Are you going to claim that those who seeked and could not find as not worthy? Or not seeking in the proper manner? Or some other arbitrary distinction that you have no right to impose on another person?

You are way off. Now I can see how you think. Christianity was never Judaism. Your above statement is indicative of your completed ignorance of the Bible and history and Judaism. Saying Christianity was Judaism is ignorance what else can I call it without being insulting? I don't mean to insult anyone, but that is quite a booo boo on your part. I can see into your thinking with that statement. I can prove it also if I have to.
The teachings of the Bible and the teachings of the RCC are as different as night and day. Peter was not a pope. Mary didn't ascend to heaven. The priesthood is no longer needed since Jesus our high priest who came from Judah's tribe and not Levi's tells it all. Read Romans and Hebrews. Youa re way off.

Perhaps I may have misinterpreted your definition of Christianity, but that's really just semantics. Your implied definition of Christianity is "followers of Christ." And the Followers of Christ way back when, let me say this slowly, WERE JEWS. Christianity, in the modern sense of the term, didn't exist back when Jesus was still alive, at that time it was, for all intents and purposes, a sect of Judaism (at least according hundreds and hundreds of both historical and religious scholars).

America is not Israe! America is not the church of Jesus Christ! Why is it hard for you to see that? Jesus told his followers to love their enemies. Repeat America is not Israel and America is not the church of Jesus Christ. America is in fact the revived Roman Empire. The United States is in every way the ancient Roman Imperial system under a new name. The deadly wound of the beast was healed in 1776. Study some history and the Bible.

I'm talking about America or Israel, I'm talking about a single person. Your response is completely nonresponsive to my question. You seem to be claiming that if a Christian soldier shoots and kills a terrorist, the "soldier" isn't killing anyone, "the country the soldier is fighting for" is. If that's what you're trying to say, what about just a normal "Christian" who kills someone say in self-defense or on accident or even willingly, are they not a Christian then?

To boil down to a single question, are sinners and Christians mutually exclusive?

And America is not the revived Holy Roman Empire, America is repeat it slowly, AMERICA. Of course there are similarities, but if you really wanna talk about it, what about Britain in the 1700's? They were more like the Roman Empire than we are today.

I ask a simple question. What dominates in the world? Good or evil? There is more grace than evil. It is obvious good is greater. Look around you. Look in yourself and tell which is greater the good in you or the evil. If one is a mass murderer, do we not go looking for him? He hides because he knows that good is greater than evil.
Listen if you think evil is greater, give your reasons and illustrations, proof and so on. You won't do it.
Circular;the old atheist stale argument which still doesn't work.

Umm... Sorry my logic isn't circular, and my argument is not the stale atheist one (the stale atheist one is, God doesn't exist look at science, or God doesn't exist, why would there be X, Y, Z bad things). Really qualify to me an ontological or deductive reason why good is greater than evil, not some this inductive mumbo jumbo because if you really want to go down that path, then explain, the current hardship undergone by the result of the financial crisis, widespread global poverty and hunger, the rampant out break of AIDS in Africa, natural disasters, Hurricane Katrina, cancer and disease, nuclear weapons, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, (and possibly for you) Gay peole/marriage, and the list goes on and on and on. Opening up any major newspaper, and they provide strong inductive evidence that evil is more widespread than good.

My contention is this, beyond the inductive tomfoolery: If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and wholly good, why would he create evil?
Deductively, it just doesn't work, either you need to concede:
A - God is not wholly good or
B - God in not omnipotent

Justify to me or prove to me how a wholly good, omnipotent, omniscient God can exist in a world where evil exists.

I said the Bible says God creates evil.

• (Isaiah 45:7 KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
• (Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

so what do you want me to do? Drink pink lemonade, dismiss those passages and say God is a soft fluffy smiling guy somewhere whose universe was invaded by evil and he didn't know and couldn't do a thing about it? I see the Bible for what it is; God's word and I also understand it.
Why don't you ask Him? He creates evil whether we understand it or not. Why are you screaming at me? I didn't write the Bible. I didn't say it. He did!
EVIL is here with us and he said he creates it. I am merely repeating what he said. Stop attacking me!
It would be sad if he didn't create it, then it would mean it is acting on its own volition.
But we have the Bible which tells us how Jesus came to rid the world of evil. This is the good news of the gospel that Christ came and became sin for us so we can made the righteousness of God in Christ.
“He who knew no sin became sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21).”
He Jesus became that sin that evil on the cross so we can become God's righteousness in Christ.

This is precisely the problem of the Bible, it gives varying interpretations of God. It is impossible to accept the entirety of the Bible at face value, because of these varying differences. Which interpretation of God is actually the "true" one? They can't all be, since each view of God is slightly (and occasionally more) different. Also, this begs the question, which version of the Bible, because there are hundreds of different versions, which "Bible" version is the true version? They can't all be, because again, they are all slightly different. Differences in translation, differences in passages included, and many others. Or what about the Gospels not included in the rendering of the Bible, the Coptic Scrolls and the Dead Sea Scrolls, what about them?

Yes I have. I have never once stopped believing its contents are from God. I have never even once stopped loving him and trusting him no matter what. We all sin but that doesn't mean we cannot find forgiveness from God. I sin but ask forgiveness everyday. That is why Christ came.
You are looking for a pink fairy in the sky who waves a magic wand and grants wishes.
God is more than that. He is good and he is love but he also is judgment.

Why would God forgive sin?
Because he is wholly good?
If he were wholly good why would he create sin in the first place?

I'm not looking for a pink fairy, I'm looking for truth, for answers, for logic and rationality, actual response backed up with logic, not just the stale theist answer. Everytime I have this discussion, it always ends the same way, either "Jesus died for your sins," or "because the Bible said so." Such blind devotion is precisely the ignorance you claim to deride, yet you yourself are full of it.

Give me actual responses, not just the rehashed nonsense that I've heard hundreds of times. Give me logic and thought, not just blind piety. Each time I hear this same old story, I get more and more skeptical. John Milton did an amazing job with Paradise Lost, I don't see why you can't either.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Paroxys is right, I too would like some logical answers. Well? I've already stated in many ways in several of my posts how I can make at least some logic out of some of the things the Bible says. I am having a hard time with the rest though. I think the Bible was more meant just as a metaphorical guide, not to be taken literally. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Luminous]

I can prove the Bible is true. But not in a few posts on a message board. It is a little more involved than that. But I can most certainly prove beyond any shadow of a doubt the Bible is the written word of God.
It involves the entire Bible from Genesis one to the Revelation of Jesus Christ 22. I can prove the Bible and secular history agree.
I don't believe a fairy tale and I don't look for someone to pull a rabbit out of a hat.
I searched and studied myself and God is faithful that WHOEVER seeks him will find him. You can't blame us for your failure to seek. He answers if we ask.

No you can't because the Bible is but man's words and not the WORD of God. Besides, WHAt BiBle are you talking about? there are sooooo many.

I can prove the Bilbe is not true. But not in a few posts on a message board. It is a little more involved than that. But I can most certainly prove beyond any shadow of a doubt the Bible is not the written word of God. It involves the entire Bible from Genesis one to the Revelation of Jesus Christ 22. I can prove the Bible and secular history don't agree.
I don't believe a fairy tale and I don't look for someone to pull a rabbit out of a hat.
I searched and studied myself and God is faithful that WHOEVER seeks IT will find IT. You can't blame me for your failure to seek. IT answers, if you ask.
BUT NOT IF YOU DONT ASK, what do you do if you think you already know?

When you 'found God' did you know what you were looking for. if you did, then you found what you wanted to find. if you didn't, then how do you know now?

Here have a taste of this:

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's butt with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His butt?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's butt, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His butt."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the butt?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's butt with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's butt often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the snot out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's butt, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's butt for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's butt He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His butt?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His butt. Other times we kiss Karl's butt, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's butt. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His butt, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
From the Desk of Karl

1. Kiss Hank's butt and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the snot out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't use alcohol.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's butt or He'll kick the snot out of you.

Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

 

[Luminous]

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's butt with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His butt?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's butt, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His butt."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the butt?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's butt with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's butt often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the snot out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's butt, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's butt for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's butt He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His butt?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His butt. Other times we kiss Karl's butt, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's butt. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His butt, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

From the Desk of Karl

1. Kiss Hank's butt and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the snot out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't use alcohol.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's butt or He'll kick the snot out of you.

Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

 

[Luminous]

Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

What do I need to read the whole bible for? This is way more interesting and basically says it all. Besides, I prefer short stories. Thanks!

 

[Paroxys]

Divine Spear. Thank you. You considerably brightened my day.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The mind is the key to the "Tree of Knowledge", the heart is the key to the "Tree of Life". As humans we have both keys, but we tend to use mainly our minds. Therein lies our evil. Animals lack the key to the mind, so they use only the heart. Perhaps if humans could just set aside the key of the mind, we too would know the "Tree of Life".

That is just a metaphorical way of perceiving things.

 

[Luminous]

If you really like what i posted in 165 & (166 &167) then kiss my butt.--kidding!---
But please, fullfil my desire and give me some frubals! FYI: click on the scale in the upper right corner of my post.

 

[Runewolf1973]

If you really like what i posted in 165 & (166 &167) then kiss my butt.--kidding!---
But please, fullfil my desire and give me some frubals! FYI: click on the scale in the upper right corner of my post.

You already got some frubals from me for those posts. But I'm not going to kiss anyone's butt.

 

[Linda777]

Paroxys;1344228]Actually, the New Testament tells stories of Jesus Christ, PLURAL, each gospel is its each individual story and each account differs ever so slightly. With these differences are inconsistencies. So if you posit: the Bible is absolute truth, if the Bible has varying accounts of a particular matter, which account is "true?"

The Bible from beginning to end tells ONE story, the story of Jesus Christ. The prophecies concerning him begin with Genesis 3:15. His genealogy goes perfectly through the Bible starting with the patriarch Abraham, then to Abraham's son Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Judah then to Perez, and it keeps going through the prophets and kings. A total of 64 sons are born in a straight unbroken line from Abraham to Jesus Christ.
There are no varying accounts in the Bible. One story. One genealogy. One family. One nation. One universe. One devil. One Savior. We are all sinners. Jesus died for all.
Everything in the Bible is there as it relates to Israel. IE: Cyrus king of Persia is in there because he is the king that allowed the Jews to return to their homeland. Nebuchadnezzar is there because he is the one who had the dream Daniel the prophets interpreted when Daniel was a captive there around 600 BC.
The Roman emperors are there because Jesus was born during that time.
God calls Abram out of Babylonia. God begins a family line and a nation, which is Israel in which a bloodline ( a Jewish family) will produce Jesus Christ.

Ummm... this doesn't answer what I bring up at all, in fact you only fall precisely into what I discuss. You're the one being pretentious and arrogant here, not me. What gives you the right to judge my attempts at seeking?

If I sound arrogant or pretentious I'm sorry I don't mean to be. The Bible tells the story of Jesus Christ. How he came into the world and why and how and when and where. It tells who he is. And what he did. It answers every question about HIM. The Bible is about Jesus Christ, that's it, no one else.
What has happened is many have confused themselves when really the Bible tells one story.

You're only picking on my word choice here, so let me rephrase and use your words. If we seek Him, and yet do not find Him, what then?

Read the promise from God to you I have posted. He doesn't respond to pride ( I don't imply you are filled with pride)

Are you going to claim that those who seeked and could not find as not worthy? Or not seeking in the proper manner? Or some other arbitrary distinction that you have no right to impose on another person?

HE said to you and anyone;

AND YE SHALL SEE ME
AND YE SHALL FIND ME
WHEN YE SHALL SEARCH FOR ME
WITH ALL YOUR HEART
AND I WILL BE FOUND OF YOU
AND I WILL BE FOUND OF YOU
WHEN YE SHALL SEEK FOR ME
WITH ALL YOUR HEART.
JEREMIAH 29: 13,14

Perhaps I may have misinterpreted your definition of Christianity, but that's really just semantics. Your implied definition of Christianity is "followers of Christ." And the Followers of Christ way back when, let me say this slowly, WERE JEWS. Christianity, in the modern sense of the term, didn't exist back when Jesus was still alive, at that time it was, for all intents and purposes, a sect of Judaism (at least according hundreds and hundreds of both historical and religious scholars).

God raised up Paul and revealed to him exactly what happened concerning Christ. It is all there in his letters to the churches. Also interesting is; Notice in Revelation of Jesus Christ, Jesus doesn't even mention Rome when he sends letters to the seven churches.

Many think the Bible is a confusing jargon of many stories. But it is really one story if one reads through it, he will find ONE genealogy of Jesus Christ beginning with Adam to Seth and to Abraham and down to Mary and Joseph. When I first realized what the Bible story was, I was so happy to find the solution to our problem of evil.

I'm talking about America or Israel, I'm talking about a single person. Your response is completely nonresponsive to my question. You seem to be claiming that if a Christian soldier shoots and kills a terrorist, the "soldier" isn't killing anyone, "the country the soldier is fighting for" is. If that's what you're trying to say, what about just a normal "Christian" who kills someone say in self-defense or on accident or even willingly, are they not a Christian then?

. Now if an intruder entered your home would you be able to shoot him if your life was at at stake?

To boil down to a single question, are sinners and Christians mutually exclusive?

Sinners need to be saved from the wrath to come. Christians will escape it.

And America is not the revived Holy Roman Empire, America is repeat it slowly, AMERICA. Of course there are similarities, but if you really wanna talk about it, what about Britain in the 1700's? They were more like the Roman Empire than we are today.

Rome is the first beast who was wounded with a deadly wound in 476 AD. Its deadly wound was healed in 1776 AD. No other place could be the revived Roman empire Daniel the prophet spoke of but America.

Umm... Sorry my logic isn't circular, and my argument is not the stale atheist one (the stale atheist one is, God doesn't exist look at science, or God doesn't exist, why would there be X, Y, Z bad things). Really qualify to me an ontological or deductive reason why good is greater than evil, not some this inductive mumbo jumbo because if you really want to go down that path, then explain, the current hardship undergone by the result of the financial crisis, widespread global poverty and hunger, the rampant out break of AIDS in Africa, natural disasters, Hurricane Katrina, cancer and disease, nuclear weapons, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, (and possibly for you) Gay peole/marriage, and the list goes on and on and on. Opening up any major newspaper, and they provide strong inductive evidence that evil is more widespread than good.

The signs of the times. All these things must happen before the return of Christ. The world is going to get so bad, only the return of Christ can fix it. It is getting now that they want to chip us with the verichip.
If evil was more widespread we would have no love anywhere. Love is still greater. His grace is still with us.

My contention is this, beyond the inductive tomfoolery: If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and wholly good, why would he create evil?
Deductively, it just doesn't work, either you need to concede:
A - God is not wholly good or
B - God in not omnipotent

Justify to me or prove to me how a wholly good, omnipotent, omniscient God can exist in a world where evil exists.

Your A and B is a not proof of a non- omnipotent God. Is it alright with you that God knows something you don't know. Can you count every drop of water in the ocean? No you can't but he can.
No one can understand fully the mind of God and to think he can is nonsense. But he does give us the whole story of the Savior of us all.

This is precisely the problem of the Bible, it gives varying interpretations of God. It is impossible to accept the entirety of the Bible at face value, because of these varying differences. Which interpretation of God is actually the "true" one? They can't all be, since each view of God is slightly (and occasionally more) different. Also, this begs the question, which version of the Bible, because there are hundreds of different versions, which "Bible" version is the true version? They can't all be, because again, they are all slightly different. Differences in translation, differences in passages included, and many others. Or what about the Gospels not included in the rendering of the Bible, the Coptic Scrolls and the Dead Sea Scrolls, what about them?

I repeat, the Bible tells one story the story of Jesus Christ beginning in Genesis.
All confusion concerning it doesn't nullify its simple and orderly story of Jesus Christ.
Many have "translated" the Bible or "interpreted it and I think all because of pride in themselves.

Why would God forgive sin?
Because he is wholly good?
If he were wholly good why would he create sin in the first place?

Correction. Man sinned against God. Not the other way around.

I'm not looking for a pink fairy, I'm looking for truth, for answers, for logic and rationality, actual response backed up with logic, not just the stale theist answer. Everytime I have this discussion, it always ends the same way, either "Jesus died for your sins," or "because the Bible said so." Such blind devotion is precisely the ignorance you claim to deride, yet you yourself are full of it.

Again only Jesus is the subject of the Bible. I tell you the truth.

Give me actual responses, not just the rehashed nonsense that I've heard hundreds of times. Give me logic and thought, not just blind piety. Each time I hear this same old story, I get more and more skeptical. John Milton did an amazing job with Paradise Lost, I don't see why you can't either.

God didn't make it complicated. We did.
I will not tell you anything except what I said that the Bible is only about Jesus Christ and no one else. Anything else there in the Bible is there as it relates to Jesus Christ.

 

[Linda777]

I find it interesting how God is said to have created evil and then went back later and tried to destroy it. That to me says that either God made a mistake and tried to correct it, or the Bible is not entirely accurate. Obviously when God created the Great Flood to cleanse the evil from the earth, he did not do a good enough job "scrubbing the corners". The way I look at things, if you are going to clean something, do it right and do it thorough or don't do it at all.

If the human race now is derived from Noah and his offspring and they were supposedly pure of heart, then we should all be theoretically the same. Was that not the whole point of it? So God destroyed all life on the face of the earth other than what was on one big boat and for what? What was gained from this? There is still evil and sin on the earth in rather large quantity. Apparently we are all sinners. If we are naturally born sinners, but when we are just "babes" we don't even understand what it means to be or do good, how could we be more good than evil? Sin is evil is it not? According to this we must be born of evil more surely than we are born of good. Even at birth, evil has apparently already defeated us which is why we must all die. Therefore we are creations of evil? Even though the good in us they say is supposedly greater than the evil, we still get punished by God? Even if all our lives we go about trying to do the right things and do good, it is still not good enough and we must be punished? WHY? The evil STILL defeats us with death. How long is God going to punish us for? I was not the one who stole that apple from the tree. It would not have been my first choice to do so. God does not realize that? God did not even give me personally a chance to prove my good nature. God automatically thinks that I am a sinner because of what someone else did? Don't blame me for another person's mistake. What happened to freedom of choice? I'm sure if God would have made 100 people in the Garden of Eden, he would have realized that not all of them were sinners. Not all of them would have stolen from the tree. Some of them would have had what is called a conscience. Maybe Adam and Eve were just really stupid. Animals don't sin, nor do trees, but they also die and animals get sick and feel pain. Why? I thought that was God's curse upon humans only? These things all seem to contradict. Where is the truth?

What happens if your brother steals something and you know it is wrong, does that make you a thief too? If my ancestor was Adolf Hitler, would that make me an evil person too? Should I be sentenced to death? Sounds like a load of crap to me. Get out of the Dark Ages already. The Crusades and Witch Trials are over. Why do Christians continue to follow a faith and scripture that seems to want to still accuse and persecute innocent people for things they never did wrong? It is immoral. It is an old faith strewn with a barbaric past. The ancient Egyptians, Mayans, and Norse peoples and many other cultures that worshiped heathen gods seemed more civilized. Those cultures just wanted to live in peace with their own gods and their own ways, but there came along the Christians and their concepts of global domination. "Our God is the only true God." Rubbish!! Perhaps the Christians today are more considerate of other ways, but they'd still have to prove it to me. I know for a fact there are more than a few truly good Christians out there. I am good friends with a few. They respect my beliefs, so I respect theirs. However, there are still many christian barbarians out there that would like to think that anyone else who doesn't wish to follow their faith deserves to go to Hell. I despise them thoroughly. I still call upon the Norse god Odin quite frequently. Odin is the ALL in ALL. Others call Odin the ALL-Father. I still cast my runes and consult with spirits. I worship and revere nature and the ways and beliefs of my earliest ancestors who were animists and shamans. My more recent ancestors were most likely Christians, but I can't do anything about that. I am a heathen and an energy worshiper and proudly so. I will always remain that way too.

I think we are all born pure without sin like the animals, but the human mind as it grows learns the capability of evil. That is why "God" apparently reveals his word to "babes", because they are pure innocence like the animals, good but not knowing evil. I don't believe we are born of sin. We become "sinners". We are left with our own choice as to what we do with it. As humans, we are still animals, we only "think" too much. Humans were never meant to eat from the "Tree of Knowledge". That knowledge of good and evil was never meant for us, yet that is exactly what we teach our children. We keep force feeding them those very same "apples". We are no better than Satan ourselves. We teach them of that knowledge they were never meant to know to begin with. We teach them what it means to be evil or how to become evil. Perhaps if I never was introduced to the bible, I would have just kept living my normal life as a generally good person. It in my own nature to be good. It was the bible that introduced me to what evil was. Before there was only good and bad, not evil.

I earnestly seek God from the heart, not from books or scripture, or degrees. What is the difference between being a highly educated Christian and a highly educated philosopher? As long as I seek with my heart, I should be able to find God. Even if I was illiterate, I should still be able to know and understand God. Even if I knew how to read and was capable of understanding the bible, but chose not to accept it because I wanted to seek God from my own heart and not some book, I should be able to do this. It should not matter what I read or what I believe, if I honestly wish to know God (if there even is a God), then God WILL find me. In all truth, I know nothing, only that I wish to seek the truth from my own heart. I trust my own heart more than I trust the teachings of the bible. I think I have a good heart, maybe God will notice. I am not going to try to put a face or name to God, for if I did that, I may be wrong. Then when I do SEE God for real, I may not realize it because of my preconceived notions of what I thought God should be. As for right now, from what I SEE of God, God is ALL things that exist. That is how I view God. Until God presents Himself to me in person as a man or being, then I will always view God as nothing less than the ALL in ALL. The term God to me is just an expression. I would rather not even use the term God. It is just easier than constantly saying the ALL in ALL. For that is what I am really referring to. Using the name Odin is about the same as using the term God. It is just an expression of something greater. Therefore, I worship Odin, the ALL in ALL, the ALL-Father. It's not the name that is important, it is the meaning behind the name which is what really matters.

I think I'll go read what Shamanism is about then I can understand where you're coming from.

 

[challupa]

Linda, do you subscribe to the belief that Jesus was a virgin birth?

 

[Runewolf1973]

I think I'll go read what Shamanism is about then I can understand where you're coming from.

Basically, I seek "God" through the "book" of nature itself. It is the truest interpretation of "God's" plan. Nature itself cannot lie. Even Jesus, from what I've heard is said to have gone into the solitude of nature to pray and be with God. Buddha, Muhammad, or even Odin knew what wisdom there was to be gained from nature and from trees. They all received their "enlightenment" naturally, through "God's" most natural expression. Mankind's earliest ancestors, who were most undoubtedly animists and shamans knew how to communicate with nature. The Native Americans even and many, many cultures around the globe, even before the advent of Christianity understood that nature held the key....Trees speak, and we have much to learn from animals. The animals know the "Tree of Life". They did not learn of it through reading the Bible. The key to the "Tree of Life" is the heart. As humans, we use our minds more than we use our heart. Did Jesus or Buddha, or Muhammad, or even Odin obtain their wisdom through reading books or scriptures? I don't think so. They learned it though opening their hearts widely to the truest expression of what God is....Nature. This is how God is able to reach all people and cultures and creatures around the globe and make that "word" known to both man and beast. At one time, mankind was ONE with "God". As we lost touch with our natural animistic "senses", and learned to use our minds more than our hearts, we lost touch with "God". In a vain attempt at getting back that oneness with "God" which we all once shared, mankind created religion. But that only separated us more. That is just my perception of things. I "see" and communicate with "God" through nature. Did God give Adam and Eve a Bible when they were in the Garden of Eden to read and study? No. All they were given was the "open book" of nature. That was the original plan. No Bibles, no religions, only oneness with God and nature. Adam and Eve should have "listened" to God and what was in their hearts, but instead, were led astray by their "minds". As humans, we all face that same problem. I have my own understanding of much of what the Bible teaches, but I choose not to take it literally. I see it as a metaphorical guide book, not a way of life, and not a history book. I see only nature itself as "God's" true word. Look to the animals. They don't need any material possessions or human "things" to live happily and at one with God. That is how I wish to live. But that is just me. I don't think there really can be any wrong way of seeking God. If you seek, you shall find. But I would not have any predisposed ideas of what God should look like or be like. In doing that we only blind our true vision because we perceive God with our minds, and not the heart.

 

[Falvlun]

The Bible from beginning to end tells ONE story, the story of Jesus Christ. The prophecies concerning him begin with Genesis 3:15. His genealogy goes perfectly through the Bible starting with the patriarch Abraham, then to Abraham's son Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Judah then to Perez, and it keeps going through the prophets and kings. A total of 64 sons are born in a straight unbroken line from Abraham to Jesus Christ.

Oh, I actually just thought about this the other day. The genealogy leads to Joseph. But, Joseph had no part in the making of Jesus. Virgin birth. Just Mary... and God. Or so the story goes. So, even assuming that there was an unbroken line from Abraham to Joseph, the line never makes it to Jesus.

 

[challupa]

That's right, he was not from the line of David because that was Joseph's line. He would have been from the priest line the Levi line which was where Mary came from.

 

[Runewolf1973]

It's like one big genealogical cesspool. Or incest pool? Whatever it is I can't make heads nor tails of it. Need to throw some monkeys in there somewhere.

 

[challupa]

Shhh You're giving monkeys a bad name :run: