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Merciful God?

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Quote to Moses
"I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation."

The above doesn't seem to be the words of a merciful God. Should we disbieve all of the old testament or only the convenient bits?

The "old" testament does not have the same God as the NT, as Judaism and Christianity are different religions. The issue comes because, unlike many religions, Christianity didn't even bother trying to pretend like they didn't blatantly steal and pervert another religion's beliefs.
 

Harrytic

Member
God IS a meanie. I don’t see any point in denying that as it’s quite clearly so when you read the bible. I don’t think it does Christianity any good to deny the nature of God. Putting on rose-coloured glasses is pointless and only makes unbelievers scoff and rightfully so.

God’s are Gods. They are angry, wrathful beings who expect things to be done their way. If not, then they will unleash that wrath without hesitation. They will also make the innocent suffer for the acts of the sinful, as we see all the time in the bible.

The God of the bible CAN be merciful. He shows that on many occasions too, but in the long run it’s up to God. Sometimes he might demand repentance… other times he might demand a sacrifice… other times he might just unleash his wrath no matter how much we might beg him not to. He’s God. He can choose whether to be merciful or not and we just have to accept it.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I don't get why non-Jews even get worked up over the old testament. I know there's a number of things that don't agree with our modern understanding of justice but it's dated literature in my opinion.
 

Harrytic

Member
The Old Testament is a huge portion of the bible. It shows us a lot about the character of God and what he expects of mankind. I believe a true Christian would be horrified that any fellow Christian would just want to flag it away. Even if it embarasses them, it doesn't matter, it's still God's word whether they like it or not. If we're gonna cast aside the Old Testament, then the same should be done to the New Testament, after all, the majority of the New Testament is the teachings of a very fallible Paul.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The Old Testament is a huge portion of the bible. It shows us a lot about the character of God and what he expects of mankind.

No. It shows what pious men 2,000-3,000 years ago thought the character of God was like and what they thought God expected of mankind. It's not God's fault if well-meaning people put words in God's mouth and attributed behaviors to Him that people 3,000 years later would think odd.


I believe a true Christian would be horrified that any fellow Christian would just want to flag it away. Even if it embarasses them, it doesn't matter, it's still God's word whether they like it or not.

Only conservative Christians hold that kind of thinking. More progressive thinking Christians think more along the lines of my comment above.

If we're gonna cast aside the Old Testament, then the same should be done to the New Testament, after all, the majority of the New Testament is the teachings of a very fallible Paul.

Again, more progressive thinkers use their intelligence in considering both testaments.
 
Quote to Moses
"I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation."

The above doesn't seem to be the words of a merciful God. Should we disbieve all of the old testament or only the convenient bits?

Are you sure it is GOD (Elohim, The Mind) talking or is it Lord (YHVH, the procreative cycle, the lower entity)?
4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD (YHVH) thy God (Elohim, Mind, Reason) am a jealous God (El Kanna-Hebrew, jealous El, Lord, El is the father of Baal, Lord, Ba-Al= The spirit of El), visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

Are you sure this passage is talking to you, or is it saying this to a specific group of people?
Misdeeds, iniquities, do run in the family, passed on from parents to children, up to us to break the cycle but it is not the intention here.
"visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; "
We love YHVH, it's the most precious, but as men, we just don't wish to under stand the lower chakra, unless...!
YHVH made Isarel (The House of Jacob actually) an offer, Ex19 6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation.
 
The "old" testament does not have the same God as the NT, as Judaism and Christianity are different religions. The issue comes because, unlike many religions, Christianity didn't even bother trying to pretend like they didn't blatantly steal and pervert another religion's beliefs.
Two sides to the Coin.
The OT and the NT.
None of them is a 'Testament' unless we 'believe' something from the outside, an all powerful entity has dictated these rules and stories to certain people (as in 'Last will and tesatment'), who then wrote these books word for word which in the long run goes contrary to the teachings of not consulting or listening to spirits etc.
A paradox...
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I don't get why non-Jews even get worked up over the old testament. I know there's a number of things that don't agree with our modern understanding of justice but it's dated literature in my opinion.

Many Jews agree with you.
 

orcel

Amature Theologian
Quote to Moses
"I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation."

The above doesn't seem to be the words of a merciful God. Should we disbieve all of the old testament or only the convenient bits?

The problem of the above quote is the application of human emotion and characteristis to God. God is bigger and greater then humanity in every way. Using human terms to describe God will always fail. So we ought not apply our understanding of jelousy and assume that was everything God was describing here. Rather I suggest we look closer at the point God was making.

I suggest God was not talking about wilful punishment of people for the actions or sins of another, but rather is describing in human terms the fact that we humans live in a interconnected world. and because of that interconnection our actions have consiqueinces that extend beyound the individual. Our actions effect others.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
God IS a meanie. I don’t see any point in denying that as it’s quite clearly so when you read the bible.

I always have found this story amusing:

"In the hope of keeping him quiet," he wrote to Nancy Mitford, "Freddie and I bet him £20 that he cannot read the whole Bible in a fortnight. Unhappily it has not had the result we hoped. He has never read any of it before and is hideously excited; keeps reading quotations aloud... or merely slapping his side & chortling 'God, isn't God a ****!'.
About Randolph Churchill, the son of Winston Churchill, discovering the Bible. from HERE

It makes you wonder how you would view the Bible and its stories if you first encountered it as an adult, rather than being immersed and immuned to it from childhood.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
It makes you wonder how you would view the Bible and its stories if you first encountered it as an adult, rather than being immersed and immuned to it from childhood.
I was raised as an irreligious kid and didn't learn of any Biblical stories or anything, and my parents would turn over anything like Songs of Praise, The Nativity, or any Biblical epics. I'd never read anything from the Bible nor did I own one until much later on in life, so I suppose this could be me to some extent?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I was raised as an irreligious kid and didn't learn of any Biblical stories or anything, and my parents would turn over anything like Songs of Praise, The Nativity, or any Biblical epics. I'd never read anything from the Bible nor did I own one until much later on in life, so I suppose this could be me to some extent?

Have you read/heard them now? What did you think?

I would think that any religion you aren't raised in is likely to strike people as more mythological; in other words, I think it's more likely that we'd view it as fiction, when we haven't been taught that it is reality. Of course, this doesn't always hold true.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Have you read/heard them now? What did you think?
I've read them, amongst many other religious scriptures. I like them. There is an amazing lot of beauty in the Bible, and a lot of insight to the mind and lives of people since past.

I would think that any religion you aren't raised in is likely to strike people as more mythological; in other words, I think it's more likely that we'd view it as fiction, when we haven't been taught that it is reality. Of course, this doesn't always hold true.
Probably because a lot of people who grow up with it as a child aren't really taught the existence -- or value -- of myth. The text is true and accurate as a child, and as you get older and question it, and it's shown not to have actually happened, drop everything!!! :p
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Are you sure it is GOD (Elohim, The Mind) talking or is it Lord (YHVH, the procreative cycle, the lower entity)?
4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD (YHVH) thy God (Elohim, Mind, Reason) am a jealous God (El Kanna-Hebrew, jealous El, Lord, El is the father of Baal, Lord, Ba-Al= The spirit of El), visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

Are you sure this passage is talking to you, or is it saying this to a specific group of people?
Misdeeds, iniquities, do run in the family, passed on from parents to children, up to us to break the cycle but it is not the intention here.
"visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; "
We love YHVH, it's the most precious, but as men, we just don't wish to under stand the lower chakra, unless...!
YHVH made Isarel (The House of Jacob actually) an offer, Ex19 6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation.

Can you kindly explain it a bit more?
 

davfra

New Member
I find it interesting that so many of you refer to God in the plural. If you're jealous, surely you can only be jealous of another? Is there more than one God?
 
Can you kindly explain it a bit more?
"That which is not uttered by speech, that by which the word is expressed, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this which is being worshipped."

Explain: Ok, I'll try, can't promise to give you what you seek.
I copied your moto, thought it is interesting, what is the motto referring to?
The books, as far as I'm concerned, were written, directed, for a specific group of people.
The Old books are not for the ones who are called Jews, they are just being fooled.

Religions don't start at grass root level, religions come from the Emperor, they are the ones who issue religion, It's an Order and in the Order you do as you told, Obey.
The 'New' books are directed for those who believe they follow Jesus' teachings but are fooled as well.
Rather, the books are two sides to the coin, the Old and the New.
There is a certain group called ISRAEL, again not the Jews. In the Old books we are called 'the children of Israel'.
ISRAEL is JACOB, Jacob is James-English. The 'House of Jacob' are the ones who made a pact with the concept of YHVH, Lord. YHVH offered them the priesthood in exchange for worship, Ex19.3-6.5 the second half of the verse is there to throw us off. The language used is confusing; 'These are the words
which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'
If we begin from a view point that the books are not written for our benfit as a guide book, then who were they written for?
I'm working on getting people to see that.
Too many people 'believe' the books were written for them, most people don't see the 'play' in the script, they read the stories believing them to be real history or allegory but they don't really know what is going on.
Psychology and body.
How do you capture ones attention especially one who's meditating? Going to the mountain of Elohim-God-Mind-reason-Logos-word.
You'd use sound and light show, aka the angel of the Lord (YHVH) in the burning bush.
Once you turned from the path, you are captured by YHVH, that's what happened to Moses Ex.3.
There are 4 majour players, at first I saw only two, then noticed that the two become 4. Used differently in the books, each one means something different.
The books were not written as an afterthought, they were/are premeditated.
1. God-Elohim
2. Lord-YHVH-Yahweh-Adonai
3.Lord God-YHVH Elohim- Lord God-Adonai Elohim
4. My Lord Yahweh-Adonai YHVH
The system we live in is based on the concepts and rules written in the Bible according to the 'play'.
It's a 'play' to be played and acted by us on a daily basis and a 'play' to be acted by those certain people who then perform it on the world's stage.
'The world's a stage' Shakespeare, read that and you'll see the 7 days of creation.
We perceive the world, so it is about our 'perception'.
it's all about 'Entertainment, depends what we 'Entertain' ourselves with.
Either doing/touching or watching or listening, smelling, tasting, entertainment.
5 senses=5 fingers, each one represents a sense.
Many things don't make sense because they are concepts, we imagine them, each one of us uses our capabilities and mental image pictures that stem from our resevoir of pictures at the time of learning the concept.
Most are stuck in the childhood concepts, what they heard when children'.
Problem is, the concepts can be misleading if we don't know the meaning of the words used and for what purpose they are used.
Plenty of resistance within us causes us to dismiss off hand any different way of looking at the script, we don't wish to have the rug pulled from under us, we may fall without stopping, fear, we are only going to fall on our bums, get hurt a little, then get up, but fear causes us to imagine that it wil be the never ending fall, that we'll lose our minds etc. The defence mechanism kicks into over drive.
We don't ask questions.
We end up fighting or willing to die for the cause, we can't change our views, not allowed. Whereas those who the books were written for as a guide book can change their religion and outward beliefs at a moment notice, they can be a part of any of the religions around, makes no difference to them, it's all part of the con for the masses.
I can see the play, not all of it, that will probably require one of them to teach me but I doubt anyone will. I'd have to be part of the 'Family', 'the House of Jacob', or a 'Levite', Levi BTW was endowed with '24 priestly gifts' when born (wikipedia).
When you read Jerusalem, think; new Jerusalem, London, the temple is just outside the City.
Books are not that ancient, most of the ancient records are hidden or burnt, history was changed, religions and beliefs changed altered, new versioned etc from the time the printing press came into effect.
Simple folks didn't live long, were starved many times over, killed and re-educated.
The killing of the aristocracy also happened through wars, a lot of what we think we know is simply not is/was.
Throughout time We were not trained to see, we were traind to believe/imagine the stories/narrative and react/obey/under stand.
Now we get confused on who is who.
How can God be this way and then change? we ask.
There is more than one entity in the play, we confuse them by thinking/believing there can be only one within the concepts, it is drummed into us everyday.
 
Quote to Moses
"I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation."

The above doesn't seem to be the words of a merciful God. Should we disbieve all of the old testament or only the convenient bits?

The Text in English does not give you the correct words.
Ex.20,4Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God(Should read 'Jealous EL'), visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
In this chapter the script refers to a specific group of people who are YHVH worshipers, and YHVH becomes the Mind of that group, or rather, the concept that represent YHVH takes over and dictates, a Lord.
EL is not ELOHIM (GOD), it is a shorter word, it sounds different, it is different, therefore it is not God but something else.
In the Torah, every letter and word has a meaning and once the word has changed it has changed the meaning.
 
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allright

Active Member
The verse simply means that if they continue in the fathers sin they will receive Gods judgement.
Ezekiel 18:14-24 If a son sees all his fathers sins and does not do likewise he shall not die for his fathers sin, he shall surley live
 
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