merit of religion= God?

[robtex]

Question:

Is the merit of a religion contingent and measured within the validity of the supernatural entity slated to represent it?

What I mean is the merit of the lifestyle that a religion encourages encompassed within the deity of that religion or can the religion stand by itself as a moral/ethical and justified meathod of living independent of the deity subscribed to that belief system.

For instance is the message of Jesus a way to live ones life if there was no Jesus or only because Jesus existed or are the 5 pillars of Islam a nobel goal to pursue even if Allah did not exist?

Or is the entire merit of the belief system contigent upon the existance of deity. If not all of it how much and why?

 

[Katzpur]

Question:

Is the merit of a religion contingent and measured within the validity of the supernatural entity slated to represent it?

What I mean is the merit of the lifestyle that a religion encourages encompassed within the deity of that religion or can the religion stand by itself as a moral/ethical and justified meathod of living independent of the deity subscribed to that belief system.

For instance is the message of Jesus a way to live ones life if there was no Jesus or only because Jesus existed or are the 5 pillars of Islam a nobel goal to pursue even if Allah did not exist?

Or is the entire merit of the belief system contigent upon the existance of deity. If not all of it how much and why?

I believe that the merit of any religion is contingent upon the fruits it produces. I cannot imagine the ideals espoused by Jesus Christ being able to exist independently of Him, but given the fact that I do believe He existed and was who He claimed to be, I see the light which He brought into the world as being replicated daily by those who genuinely attempt to emulate Him. Their lives are what outsiders will inevitably judge Christianity by.

 

[sparc872]

I believe that truths and meaning can be found in anything. If I understand what you are asking correctly, of course there is merit in religion without God. The philosophies in religion from Christianity to Buddhism can be applied to anyones life, whether they believe in that certain system or not. The words of the Bible apply to me in very meaningful ways. I don't believe in God, so obviously the book loses some on that point, but the theme in the New Testament of loving your neighbor and being humble etc can and should be applied to everyone.

 

[robtex]

I believe that the merit of any religion is contingent upon the fruits it produces.

I cannot imagine the ideals espoused by Jesus Christ being able to exist independently of Him,

Do you realize those two ideas are mutually exclusive in proposition if Jesus did not exist? What you are saying in number one is the product of that religion---which I am assuming is a loving just and postitive society has its own merit

yet

In number two you are saying the sum of the values of JC are not independant of Jesus. If no value of a religion exists outside of the deity of that religion than it would not be able to produce any "fruits" if that deity did not exist.

To put the question more simply if there was no Jesus (just a hypothical) would the tenets of your religion have any value or utility to you at all? Or is the entire worth of your religion measured only the the knowledge of the existance of Jesus.

For example, if you believe in the Christian notion of "turn the other cheeck". Do you believe in it because morally it makes sense or only because Jesus practiced it according to your faith?

Or in reverse:

If Jesus did not practice "turn the other cheek" would it be worthless to you. Or if Jesus was deemed at some point not to exist would "turn the other cheek" become meaningless to you?

 

[Comet]

Is the merit of a religion contingent and measured within the validity of the supernatural entity slated to represent it?

Absolutely not!!! I can't believe an Atheist would state such a question! To state that no supernatural entity exists is to measure that religion upon nothing to represent it! Atheism is a religion in my view, and it doesn't depend on a supernatural entity; nor does Pantheism or a number of others.

What I mean is the merit of the lifestyle that a religion encourages encompassed within the deity of that religion or can the religion stand by itself as a moral/ethical and justified meathod of living independent of the deity subscribed to that belief system.

Many religion base themselves upon the belief in a deity.... the religion fails at the proof that said deity is non-existent. Yet, the morals and lifestyle still will hold true to many people. Either due to morality or ethics.........

For instance is the message of Jesus a way to live ones life if there was no Jesus or only because Jesus existed or are the 5 pillars of Islam a nobel goal to pursue even if Allah did not exist?

Pointless. The teachings of both were taught long before either man came along. Thus, it is independent of the "religion" they founded.

Or is the entire merit of the belief system contigent upon the existance of deity. If not all of it how much and why?

It only depends on the person. Some need to believe in a deity to follow that which seems to be accepted by all humans (regardless of which deity says it). Many do not need a deity at all to accept the teachings.

I guess I can only say this: Why would you take a life-vest from somebody who hasn't learned how to swim? Would you? NO! Would you demand a person who treads water just fine take an extra life-vest you had..........????? Seems to be "yes" on that questoin, though I would say NO.

 

[Comet]

For example, if you believe in the Christian notion of "turn the other cheeck". Do you believe in it because morally it makes sense or only because Jesus practiced it according to your faith?

Or in reverse:

If Jesus did not practice "turn the other cheek" would it be worthless to you. Or if Jesus was deemed at some point not to exist would "turn the other cheek" become meaningless to you?

Do Christians not believe in all the Bible??? Thus, they also must believe in the old "eye for an eye". (Lest they argue that God's Covenant with them changed in Jesus)

Either way, it makes either point meaningless by a pardoxal quandry.

 

[robtex]

Do Christians not believe in all the Bible??? Thus, they also must believe in the old "eye for an eye". (Lest they argue that God's Covenant with them changed in Jesus)

Either way, it makes either point meaningless by a pardoxal quandry.

Does "turn the other cheek" have moral aptitude independant of Jesus or is the only reason it has any validity to a theist due to the idea that Jesus practiced "turn the other cheek"?

I think it is safe to say Christians believe in the Bible but the nature of the question, and I am not focusing this just on Christianty, but in this case do they believe the ideas proposed in the Bible because they make good sense (to them) or because it was a WWJD kinda thing only?

 

[robtex]

Absolutely not!!! I can't believe an Atheist would state such a question!

who do you believe would ask such a question?

To state that no supernatural entity exists is to measure that religion upon nothing to represent it!

n I didn't state it, I asked if it was.

Atheism is a religion in my view, and it doesn't depend on a supernatural entity; nor does Pantheism or a number of others.

Probably another thread but most atheists contend that atheism is a lack of belief in a God. (ex footnote: http://www.strongatheism.net/intro/lexicon/) .

Many religion base themselves upon the belief in a deity.... the religion fails at the proof that said deity is non-existent. Yet, the morals and lifestyle still will hold true to many people. Either due to morality or ethics.

I would concur with that, but more importantly do you feel the above statement is true for you personally and if so why?

Pointless. The teachings of both were taught long before either man came along. Thus, it is independent of the "religion" they founded.

If it was truely pointless to you you would not have addressed it. I think it may be emotional to you. Not that the answer matters to any of the non-theists here, but for introspection if I am right on my speculation that it hit a nerve to even assess the merit of religion why would you find the idea of weather or not it is independant of religion a pointless inquiry?

It only depends on the person. Some need to believe in a deity to follow that which seems to be accepted by all humans (regardless of which deity says it). Many do not need a deity at all to accept the teachings.

Concur but which category do you fall into and why?

I guess I can only say this: Why would you take a life-vest from somebody who hasn't learned how to swim? Would you? NO! Would you demand a person who treads water just fine take an extra life-vest you had..........????? Seems to be "yes" on that questoin, though I would say NO.

I have no idea what life vests have to do with assessing the merit of a religion independant of the deity allocated to it.

 

[Comet]

AHHH, I see what you are getting at now... but I will still answer your questions....

who do you believe would ask such a question?

I see what you are getting at now, and not worth a debate here.....

n I didn't state it, I asked if it was.

You are Atheist and have morals, right? So a pointless question in my mind.

Probably another thread but most atheists contend that atheism is a lack of belief in a God. (ex footnote: http://www.strongatheism.net/intro/lexicon/)

A lack of belief is the same as belief, for it takes faith to believe either side of what is (as to this point) not provable! Thus, I view Atheism as no different in any religion you should name - by the point that both take a "faith" in something that is unproven.

I would concur with that, but more importantly do you feel the above statement is true for you personally and if so why?

The golden rule: Treat others as you would have them treat you. That was taught long before Christians claimed it as thier doctrine. Thus, my life-vest analogy. If one can only understand such a concept via the man Jesus or Mohammed, why take that away from that person? Do you not wish for them to believe that practice? Would you have the way one of thier followers FORCE that upon you, when you see the same and difference? Why take somebody's life-vest when that is the only way they know to swim? Why be forced to wear a life-vest from any if you know how to swim already? (hope that answers two questions for you)

If it was truely pointless to you you would not have addressed it. I think it may be emotional to you. Not that the answer matters to any of the non-theists here, but for introspection if I am right on my speculation that it hit a nerve to even assess the merit of religion why would you find the idea of weather or not it is independant of religion a pointless inquiry?

Most things are pointless, but why would you not wish to teach one with a life-vest how to swim on thier own? The same reasone you wish not to take thier life-vest.....

My best friend is an Atheist. I love him very much. My family is all Monotheist. I love them very much. Everything is relative when it comes to a view on a situation, so why would I not take it "emotionally"? Humans view all things from thier subjective point of view and they are very emotional.

It all really depends on YOUR definition of religion. My definition says that it is any code of morals or ethics within a personal belief system. That makes both points of view the same to me...... though it gets at your point I see now. Either way, it wouldn't matter as humans evolve thier perceptions quickly to adapt.

Concur but which category do you fall into and why?

I fall into neither, I am a Monist. I see Atheists and Theists at opposite sides of the mirror and myself to the side watching them.

have no idea what life vests have to do with assessing the merit of a religion independant of the deity allocated to it

All are the same and can see themselves as swimming as opposed to those that need a life-vest. Hope it has been explained enough.

 

[Mr. Hair]

What about religions that don't include, or at least don't mention, a God(s)?

To the OP, I certainly don't think that a particular religion's concept of a Deity/Ultimate Reality must exist for that faith, and in particular it's prescribed lifestyle, to hold any merit; a lot depends on the lifestyle and the person... Um, living it... (Curse this lack of thesauruses!)

 

[Æsahættr]

It all really depends on YOUR definition of religion. My definition says that it is any code of morals or ethics within a personal belief system.

That rules atheism out as a religion for a start. No atheist code of morals or ethics.


To the OP:

What I mean is the merit of the lifestyle that a religion encourages encompassed within the deity of that religion or can the religion stand by itself as a moral/ethical and justified meathod of living independent of the deity subscribed to that belief system.

Yes to a certain extent. I think that a religion with an excellent record on morals and ethics can justify itself even if the beliefs it is based on are false, but because I also hold truth to hold value in its own right, the system with false beliefs would need to have a much better moral and ethical system than a system with true beliefs in order to justify using the false system rather than the true. Obviously, what is a "better" moral and ethical system is subjective.

 

[Comet]

That rules atheism out as a religion for a start. No atheist code of morals or ethics.
.

Does an Atheist have their own personal code of morals and ethics? I would think that every person has these things, regardless of what they are. As I said, "within a PERSONAL belief system".

It is subjective and different for every person. What you believe I consider "religion". Like I said, it all depends on YOUR definition of "religion".

 

[Æsahættr]

Does an Atheist have their own personal code of morals and ethics? I would think that every person has these things, regardless of what they are. As I said, "within a PERSONAL belief system".

So every single atheist belongs to a religion of one person?

 

[Comet]

So every single atheist belongs to a religion of one person?

In my view, yes.... and morals and ethics are independent of deity. Every Atheist I have ever met is living proof to me that you can have morals/ethics/etc... without a deity.

 

[Æsahættr]

In my view, yes.... and morals and ethics are independent of deity. Every Atheist I have ever met is living proof to me that you can have morals/ethics/etc... without a deity.

Ok, using that definition then every atheist belongs to a religion, but atheism itself is still not a religion.

 

[robtex]

Comet, eshaettr, can you two do me a favor? Can you make a seperate thread on the debate topic (which is a cool topic) of weather atheism is a religion on not?

 

[Comet]

Comet, eshaettr, can you two do me a favor? Can you make a seperate thread on the debate topic (which is a cool topic) of weather atheism is a religion on not?

My apologies, I was not trying to take away from this thread.

 

[robtex]

My apologies, I was not trying to take away from this thread.

No problem, just making an op in the religious debates section to the tune of "is atheism a religion and i will try to "fork" your posts into that thread. (fork means move the posts from here to there).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Is the merit of a religion contingent and measured within the validity of the supernatural entity slated to represent it?

No! We can't prove that any divine beings exist anyway.

What I mean is the merit of the lifestyle that a religion encourages encompassed within the deity of that religion or can the religion stand by itself as a moral/ethical and justified meathod of living independent of the deity subscribed to that belief system.

The blue is exactly my view.

For instance is the message of Jesus a way to live ones life if there was no Jesus or only because Jesus existed or are the 5 pillars of Islam a nobel goal to pursue even if Allah did not exist?

If God exists, may he have mercy on us all.

Or is the entire merit of the belief system contigent upon the existance of deity. If not all of it how much and why?

The entire merit of a religion is its value on earth. Does it enrich our lives and make us better people? That's where the value of religion is. I see it as completely divorced from the divine as religion itself has nothing to do with divinity.

 

[robtex]

That's where the value of religion is. I see it as completely divorced from the divine as religion itself has nothing to do with divinity.

It has something to do with divinity because it was inspired by the belief in divinity. The question of the relationship of the two is quite subjective in nature, and for me I am still tinkering with the parameters of such.