Messianic Jews vs. Reality

[CynthiaCypher]

I didn't want to write this thread because even though I am ethnically Jewish I am in no way a practitioner of the Jewish religion and never will be. But I have a problem with those who call themselves Messianic Jews.

I find most of them insulting. Many of those who call themselves Messianic Jews haven't a shred on Jewish DNA in them, many of them are gentiles who have done nothing more than claimed to be Jewish and then go so far as to saying that they are complete Jews because they have accepted Jesus as the Messiah,

Here is where reality kicks in. How can you claim you are Jewish if like none of your ancestors are like Jewish?

What makes you think that you are now Jewish?

IAnd why would you want to be Jewish in the first place? Is it because you mistakenly believe that the Jews are God's only Chosen People and you some how believe that being Jewish will get you closer to God?

 

[Levite]

Fair points. "Messianic Judaism" is just another Christian sect, but decked out with a few Jewish trappings.

Judaism and Christianity are theologically incompatible. One cannot be a Jew who legitimately practices Christianity: doing so represents apostasy from Judaism.

And one cannot be a Jew unless one is born to a Jewish mother, or goes through a kosher conversion process according to Jewish Law-- part of which is rejecting all other religions.

I have no problem with people being Christian. And while I think it is unfortunate, it is not even my business if Jews choose to apostasize to Christianity. But to call a Christian sect Jewish, and to proselytize amongst young and uneducated Jews by deceitfully calling Christian practices acceptable to Judaism is, IMO, incredibly disrespectful to Judaism and the Jewish tradition. It is chutzpah beyond belief.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Fair points. "Messianic Judaism" is just another Christian sect, but decked out with a few Jewish trappings.

Judaism and Christianity are theologically incompatible. One cannot be a Jew who legitimately practices Christianity: doing so represents apostasy from Judaism.

And one cannot be a Jew unless one is born to a Jewish mother, or goes through a kosher conversion process according to Jewish Law-- part of which is rejecting all other religions.

I have no problem with people being Christian. And while I think it is unfortunate, it is not even my business if Jews choose to apostasize to Christianity. But to call a Christian sect Jewish, and to proselytize amongst young and uneducated Jews by deceitfully calling Christian practices acceptable to Judaism is, IMO, incredibly disrespectful to Judaism and the Jewish tradition. It is chutzpah beyond belief.

What gets me is that most of them are goy

 

[ChristineES]

In a sense, I guess I can be considered a Messianic Jew. My maternal grandmother was Jewish. I never practiced Judaism, even my grandmother didn't- she became a Catholic when she married my grandfather back in the 30s. Zola Levitt was what we call a Messianic Jew, he practice Judaism, was ethnically a Jew and he believed that Jesus was the Messiah. There are some Jews who say that Messianic Jews are not really Jews, but I never have agreed with that.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

In a sense, I guess I can be considered a Messianic Jew. My maternal grandmother was Jewish. I never practiced Judaism, even my grandmother didn't- she became a Catholic when she married my grandfather back in the 30s. Zola Levitt was what we call a Messianic Jew, he practice Judaism, was ethnically a Jew and he believed that Jesus was the Messiah. There are some Jews who say that Messianic Jews are not really Jews, but I never have agreed with that.

If your maternal grandma was a Jewess that means you are too. As for the so-called Messianic Jews, many of them have no actual genetic connection to the Jewish people. i find their shanghai'ing of my ethnicity insulting especially when they call themselves complete Jews

 

[Rakhel]

If your maternal grandma was a Jewess that means you are too. As for the so-called Messianic Jews, many of them have no actual genetic connection to the Jewish people. i find their shanghai'ing of my ethnicity insulting especially when they call themselves complete Jews

That term "complete Jew" is what irks most Jews.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

That term "complete Jew" is what irks most Jews.

Yup, even those who don't practice Judaism

 

[ydavod]

Of course a Jew can believe in Jesus. He may even howl at the moon or stick pins in a doll,because its Just like a vegetarian that eats a steak,As Levite said above, unless one is born to a Jewish mother, or goes through conversion,according to Jewish Law he or she is not Jewish
If you believe Jesus was the Messiah, then you, My friend are a christian ,There is no such thing as Jewish Christian

 

[Shermana]

I am 100% full blooded Ashkenazi with not a single drop of gentile blood from a long line of Ultra-Orthodox Eastern European Jews including relation to a Grand Rabbi of Moscow, I came to belief in Yashua as Moshiach through a long period of thought and study of which this is not the thread to expound on, and I do agree that it's a bit aggravating when non-bloodeds claim to be Messianic "Jews" yet are nothing more than Evangelicals who hold on to a bit or two of the Law. The word "Jew" should be reserved for Israelite blooded only, even in converts to normative Judaism.

However, I do believe that many of them sincerely want to obey the Law and understand the true meaning of teaching of Yashua and many of them even reject Paul's teachings. For them is the Spirit of a True MEssianic that is far closer to the truth than any mainstream "Christian". However, they should not call themselves "Jewish" but simply "Messianic", and the word "Messianic Jewish" has been highjacked extensively to become basically Evangelicals with a few Law-based doctrines, but ultimately, they are still more Protestant than Nazarene/Ebionite. I believe a new term is in order for them.

There is also a problem of someone saying a Jew is not a Jew if he accepts Yashua as Moshiach. Does this mean that the Jews who accepted Bar Kokhba were not Jews? Were the Kaballists who accepted Zevi not Jews? The Rabbinical opinion means little to me (though some) which is part of my decision, as I agree with Yashua's opinion on the Pharisees and those who add to and subtract from the Law, and I can completely understand why those who accept majority-Christian doctrines like the Trinity may be in violation of the Law, but as I don't, I don't see any reason why my particular understanding would render me "non-Jewish". If anything, I think Jews who have a problem with Messianics should focus first on the Atheists and Liberal "Reform" among their midst who are the main threat to mainline Jewish stability. When an ethnic Jew who denies the existence of G-d and eats ham sandwiches is considered more Jewish than an ethnic Jew who accepts that Yashua was the Moshiach, you can tell there is something wrong with that picture.

 

[Flankerl]

When an ethnic Jew who denies the existence of G-d and eats ham sandwiches is considered more Jewish than an ethnic Jew who accepts that Yashua was the Moshiach, you can tell there is something wrong with that picture.

The first one breaks dietary law and denounces god while the second one indulges in heresy.

There is definitely something wrong with both of them.

Does this mean that the Jews who accepted Bar Kokhba were not Jews? Were the Kaballists who accepted Zevi not Jews?

If they didnt return to the right teachings then of course they were apart from the jewish people. And also very stupid for still believing it.
Pro Hint: If he's dead before doing all the messianic stuff he is not the moshiach.





Iam also not sure what to think of this thread and what it might turn out to be.

 

[JacobEzra.]

I got maternal lineage. But "messianic judaism" sect irks me, goy, yid, or smurf

 

[Shermana]

The first one breaks dietary law and denounces god while the second one indulges in heresy.

Who says its heresy exactly? The Rabbis? Why aren't Reform Jews or Atheist Jews considered heretical. Reform Jews eat ham quite often, I have yet to see such Vitriol against them as the Messianics get.

There is definitely something wrong with both of them.

Why is there something wrong with believing that Yashua was the Moshiach, in detail? Excluding the Trinity and Lawless interpretations of his teachings. Because the Rabbis said so?

If they didnt return to the right teachings then of course they were apart from the jewish people. And also very stupid for still believing it.
Pro Hint: If he's dead before doing all the messianic stuff he is not the moshiach.

The "Messianic stuff" is up to debate. It could be a long drawn out process, like how the Israelites were in the desert for 40 years since they refused to obey G-d properly, maybe the Jews spent 2000+ years wandering before he'd bring them back. If he was raised from the dead like how Elisha raised some from the dead, then he's still alive. Did Enoch die? What are these "Right teachings"? What the Rabbis say? Many of those who believed in Bar Kokhba were "stupid" up to their deaths at the hands of the Romans. Were they not Jews?

 

[ydavod]

The belief in Jesus as the messiah puts one outside the boundaries of Judaism, you just can't reject Torah,
I don't mean to imply that one has any less a Jewish soul. no matter how far one roams a Jew will always be Jew but a faith in a messiah ,Jesus, as the christ, by definition makes one a practicing Christian and places one outside of Judaism. He simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach Bar Kokhba came closer than Jesus , had it not been for his death ,but he did not fulfill it completely as well.
If it brings one closer to God, so be it, more power to you.But you cannot say you are a practicing Jew, even with a Jewish soul, and follow what mainstream Judaism views as a false prophet ,its no differant than saying I am a christion but dont think Jesus is the messiah or ever existed

 

[Shermana]

The belief in Jesus as the messiah puts one outside the boundaries of Judaism, you just can't reject Torah,

You're right in that you "Can't just reject Torah!". This idea that you can't just reject Torah is the basis of over 70% of my arguments with so-called "Christians". The problem is that these doers of Lawlessness seem to hold some kind of representation of what Yashua actually taught. This should not be. Otherwise, Yashua said specifically that not an "iota" of the Law shall ever be void. There's also the issue of what the Manuscripts say and have been edited with. Paul's epistles and doctrines also muddy the issue.

I

don't mean to imply that one has any less a Jewish soul. no matter how far one roams a Jew will always be Jew but a faith in a messiah ,Jesus, as the christ, by definition makes one a practicing Christian and places one outside of Judaism.

Do you include Reform Jews who eat Ham and desecrate High Holidays as "outside Judaism"? Perhaps 'Judaism" is not necessarily the way of saying what a "Jew" is and should be ,but should be retitled as "Rabbinicism" since the word "Judaism" can mean a variety of different beliefs, including Kabbalism and Atheist-Reconstructionim. As for the word "Christianity", I agree that the original "Christians' were naught but a Jewish sect, the problem is lump summing anyone who claims to believe in Jesus as a "Christian" as if the doctrines themselves do not matter. So what exactly does believing in Jesus do to put someone "outside of Judaism"? Because the Rabbis said so? Do we have a clear cut understanding of what the Moshiach is supposed to do and how long its supposed to take? Can you just assume that Jesus didn't really raise from the dead and base your accusation on that presumption?

He simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach Bar Kokhba came closer than Jesus

How did Bar Kokhba come closer? Who is to say that the Messianic process is not a long, drawn out 2000 year episode, like an extended 40 year wandering in the wilderness?

,

had it not been for his death ,but he did not fulfill it completely as well.

Are you saying that Bar Kokhba's death is all that prevented him from being the Moshiach? Explain.

If it brings one closer to God, so be it, more power to you.But you cannot say you are a practicing Jew, even with a Jewish soul, and follow what mainstream Judaism views as a false prophet ,its no differant than saying I am a christion but dont think Jesus is the messiah or ever existed

[/quote]

Your idea of what a "practicing Jew" means should be "practicing Rabbinicst". Do you consider Reform Jews and Kaballist Jews to be "practicing Jews"? If so, you have a problem. Are you concerned at all with what Yashua actually taught as opposed to what the gentiles say he taught? What if I said that Jesus was basically a Kairite. Do you think Kairites are outside of Judaism too?

Is the Moshiach supposed to make things happen overnight? Do you base your accusations on presumptions on what you interpret the Messianic age to be, just as you might accuse the "Christian" of doing?

 

[Flankerl]

Iam not going into this kind of debate. Believe in your Jesus and be happy with that.

One could think that a mean rabbi once stole your parking space.

 

[JacobEzra.]

If they didnt return to the right teachings then of course they were apart from the jewish people. And also very stupid for still believing it.

Yeah, and it used to be that any Jew who became atheist or converted would be separated from the people all together. Now, there are many Jews who are atheist and still considered Jewish, which is seen as completely okay. But if it be a conversion to another religion, then they are stupid, right?

Pro Hint: If he's dead before doing all the messianic stuff he is not the moshiach.

I thought this thread was on messianic "jews" who are really not even born a hint of Jewish.

 

[Levite]

I am 100% full blooded Ashkenazi with not a single drop of gentile blood from a long line of Ultra-Orthodox Eastern European Jews including relation to a Grand Rabbi of Moscow, I came to belief in Yashua as Moshiach through a long period of thought and study of which this is not the thread to expound on, and I do agree that it's a bit aggravating when non-bloodeds claim to be Messianic "Jews" yet are nothing more than Evangelicals who hold on to a bit or two of the Law. The word "Jew" should be reserved for Israelite blooded only, even in converts to normative Judaism.

However, I do believe that many of them sincerely want to obey the Law and understand the true meaning of teaching of Yashua and many of them even reject Paul's teachings. For them is the Spirit of a True MEssianic that is far closer to the truth than any mainstream "Christian". However, they should not call themselves "Jewish" but simply "Messianic", and the word "Messianic Jewish" has been highjacked extensively to become basically Evangelicals with a few Law-based doctrines, but ultimately, they are still more Protestant than Nazarene/Ebionite. I believe a new term is in order for them.

There is also a problem of someone saying a Jew is not a Jew if he accepts Yashua as Moshiach. Does this mean that the Jews who accepted Bar Kokhba were not Jews? Were the Kaballists who accepted Zevi not Jews? The Rabbinical opinion means little to me (though some) which is part of my decision, as I agree with Yashua's opinion on the Pharisees and those who add to and subtract from the Law, and I can completely understand why those who accept majority-Christian doctrines like the Trinity may be in violation of the Law, but as I don't, I don't see any reason why my particular understanding would render me "non-Jewish". If anything, I think Jews who have a problem with Messianics should focus first on the Atheists and Liberal "Reform" among their midst who are the main threat to mainline Jewish stability. When an ethnic Jew who denies the existence of G-d and eats ham sandwiches is considered more Jewish than an ethnic Jew who accepts that Yashua was the Moshiach, you can tell there is something wrong with that picture.

The difference is that when it became clear that Bar Kokhba and Shabtai Tzvi were not the messiah, faithful Jews ceased to believe in them and follow them-- or in Tzvi's case, ceased to believe in him when he began breaking the commandments as a matter of halachah. Those who did not do so truly became heretics.

A Jew who breaks the commandments in not keeping kosher properly or so forth may or may not be a heretic, depending on the situation. But a Jew who claims that Jesus was the messiah is subscribing belief to a false prophet, and is adhering to a faith that causes people to worship a human being, which is strictly forbidden to us. This is not heresy, this is apostasy: that is the difference. The day when Jesus could be followed by observant Jews ceased 1900 years ago or so, and there is no going back: he is the god of Christianity now, and thus completely off limits to us.

It is certainly true that someone who is halachically Jewish-- whether by birth or by kosher conversion-- is permanently and irrevocably Jewish, no matter what sins they commit or proscribed theologies they profess. But that just means that Jewish "messianics" or J4J's or whatever they call themselves are Jews guilty of apostasy rather than mere heresy.

Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism. That's the way things worked out. The time when it was possible to consider other options-- if there indeed ever was such a time-- is millennia past. The only choices left are: Rabbinic Jew, heretic, other religions/apostasy. That's just the way it is.

 

[Shermana]

And the presumption that Jesus was a false prophet is just that, a presumption. He specifically said not an iota of the Law will ever be void. As I said there is the issue of manuscript editing and interpolations that may make him appear to be promoting lawlessness, but its easy to see the clash.

he is the god of Christianity now, and thus completely off limits to us.

This is exactly my point, it seems the Rabbinicists are a bit too eager to let the Gentile interpretation of him supercede what he actually was.

Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism

So then what do you call Reform and Kairites? This is further my point, it seems the Rabbinicsts want to say "We are Judaism, if not one of us, you're not following Judaism". Little different than the Protestants and Catholics who say "We are Christianity, if you don't follow us, you are following a heresy/apostasy".

and is adhering to a faith that causes people to worship a human being,

This goes to show how the meaning of the word "Worship" has been lost. David was worshiped. David worshiped Saul. Joshua worshiped an angel. The commandment is to worship and SERVE G-d alone. The word "worship" merely means to bow down. Again, the meaning of 'worship" has been mangled. If you're referring to treating Jesus as G-d, then you further my point about how the mainstream gentile heresies like the Trinity have usurped the representation.

Ultimately, and I thank you for confirming my point, the Rabbinicists are condemning a strawman that the mainstream "Orthodox Christians" have built, as if that strawman somehow represents the original.

 

[not nom]

I didn't want to write this thread because even though I am ethnically Jewish I am in no way a practitioner of the Jewish religion and never will be. But I have a problem with those who call themselves Messianic Jews.

I find most of them insulting. Many of those who call themselves Messianic Jews haven't a shred on Jewish DNA in them, many of them are gentiles who have done nothing more than claimed to be Jewish and then go so far as to saying that they are complete Jews because they have accepted Jesus as the Messiah,

Here is where reality kicks in. How can you claim you are Jewish if like none of your ancestors are like Jewish?

What makes you think that you are now Jewish?

IAnd why would you want to be Jewish in the first place? Is it because you mistakenly believe that the Jews are God's only Chosen People and you some how believe that being Jewish will get you closer to God?

if I call my children and all their offspring fnulps, does that actually make them fnulps?

what is "jewish DNA" -- other than a fallacy, a stupid idea, and wishful thinking by mediocre people?

you really think the creator of even a snowflake, much less the universe, is dumb enough to be a racist? that gets me every time hahaha. I mean sure, it's possible. it'd just be too stupid to respect even coming from god ^^

 

[Shermana]

if I call my children and all their offspring fnulps, does that actually make them fnulps?

It depends on if there is a legitimate gene marker which can be made known as Fnulpish.

what is "jewish DNA" -- other than a fallacy, a stupid idea, and wishful thinking by mediocre people?

All Jews carry certain genetic markers such as the "Cohen Gene", you can tell if we are related to the Mizrahi even if we have the fairest of skin.

you really think the creator of even a snowflake, much less the universe, is dumb enough to be a racist?

We believe certain races, like the Canaanites and the Ammonites and the Moabites to be a "cursed race" of sorts. No offense to them.

that gets me every time hahaha. I mean sure, it's possible. it'd just be too stupid to respect even coming from god ^^

The concept isn't too far-fetched. The Israelites are the "chosen people", a nation set apart from all the others, a special "birth-right" if you will. You may not choose to accept it, but this is how we have traditionally viewed ourselves, that the "House of Israel" is a nation, and a special priveleged nation. Jesus compares the Canaanite woman to a dog, but mercifully grants her request after the Canaanite acknowledges that she's a dog. It's one of those things that are a bit difficult to get into without offending anyone.