Midrash concerning Peter

[Harel13]

"There are those who say that the old witch still inhabits these woods, and at night sometimes you can still hear her screaming." -- from a scary campfire story

Hey, the Bible says there used to be actual witches, so you decide what you want to do about that.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I have read snippets of this d'rash before. Peter is also supposed to have been the author of a prayer called the Nishmat.

 

[dybmh]

I have read snippets of this d'rash before. Peter is also supposed to have been the author of a prayer called the Nishmat.

Full disclosure... What's your level of confidence on this?

 

[Terry Sampson]

What's your level of confidence on this?

Confidence? Confidence that what? LOL!
That it was written by a Jew? 99.999999999999 probability.
That it's an apocryphal reference to Simon Peter, one of Jesus' twelve disciples? I vote in favor of that assertion.

 

[dybmh]

Confidence? Confidence that what? LOL!
That it was written by a Jew? 99.999999999999 probability.
That it's an apocryphal reference to Simon Peter, one of Jesus' twelve disciples? I vote in favor of that assertion.

Here's what I'm reading right now:

Kotzk Blog: 102) DID ST. PETER COMPOSE THE 'NISHMAT' PRAYER?

It has footnotes, but I haven't gotten there yet. I'll put the conclusion in a spoiler:

Spoiler: Who Wrote Nishmat

Whether factually accurate or not, we have established that there was indeed widespread acceptance of the notion that St. Peter had composed the Nishmat, Etan Tehillah and Ahavah Rabbah prayers. This appears to have been supported by Rabbeinu Tam and other Rishonim.
On the other hand this perception was vehemently challenged by Rashi, his student the Machzor Vitry and others who suggested the prayers may have predated the Common Era.
It is interesting to see that the brunt of the debate is played out between both Rashi’s grandson (Rabbeinu Tam) and his student (R. Simcha of Vitry).
In an attempt at reconciling the variant opinions, some suggest that there may have been two Shimons. One was Shimon ben Yona, the Apostle who was known as St. Peter who was viewed rather negatively by Rashi and the Machzor Vitry. The other was Shimon Kipah who was the righteous man who acted as the agent for the rabbis.

edit to add: Look at footnote 7: See Otzar HaMidrashim, Eisenstein, p. 557 for more details.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I'd be interested to hear what people think of this midrash.

I, for one, found it intriguing. I wish there was a way to date it more specifically.
It's clear it dates from after the construction of the Basilica, first started during the reign of Constantine, and so I am not surprised that this particular midrash portion is controversial within Judaism. We Christians, on the other hand, are, by and large, clueless when it comes to the Talmud, Mishnah, Midrash, etc. which, IMO, is a good thing.
Noteworthy features, IMO:

• The distinct possibility/probability that Simon Peter, disciple of Jesus, is mentioned in historical Jewish literature. Of course, given my ignorance of Jewish writings, one mention would be noteworthy, where others might not think so.
• That Shimon Kippah is referred to as a "a sage from the sages" who had heard and been guided by "the Heavenly Voice".
  • Seems to me that he actually turns out to have had a constructive role in this midrash.
  • My guess would be that attribution of the "Nishmat Kol Chai" to Shimon Kippah who, in this Midrash, certainly seems to be the Hebrew Christian apostle, would be one of the principle sources of contention in the controversy over this midrash portion.
  • I was pleased to see reference to Shimon's miracles, i.e. healing the leper and raising the dead, which in my opinion discourages a belief that all Jews have always objected to Jesus because of his alleged miracles, which I have always kinda thought was an odd opinion.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Hey, the Bible says there used to be actual witches, so you decide what you want to do about that.

Is there a text in the canon that says what a witch is? Whatever it is we're supposed to stone it. Just use your big finger and point out to us who or what it is, because we don't want to get the translation wrong this time. One time we stoned* some haute teenage girls we caught smoking behind the schoolhouse, and boy was that a blunder.

(*This is for dialogue purposes only. No illegal acts have been committed, and I do not endorse violence.)

 

[Wandering Monk]

Full disclosure... What's your level of confidence on this?

In his work Otzar HaMidrashim, Rebbeinu Tamm cites a lengthy d'rash about Peter which says he "was the leader of the poets, and... was granted great wisdom (chochmah)." The d'rash goes on to say the Peter composed great hymns for Israel.

Y.D. Eisenstein, Otzar HaMidrashim (New York, NY: Reznick, Menschel & CO, 1928), 557-561. English translation from Wout Van Bekkum, "The Rock on Which the Church is Founded," Saints and Role Models in Judaism and Christianity (Brill, 2004), 300.
​

The tradition that Peter composed the Nishmat was so strong in the middle ages that Rashi himself was forced to refute it.

Shimon Halevi Horovitz, Machzor Vitri, (Berlin: bi-defus shel Ts. H. Ittskavski, 1889), 282. This is also discussed in Wout Van Bekkum, "The Rock on Which the Church is Founded," Saints and Role Models in Judaism and Christianity (Brill, 2004), 300 and "Nishmat Kol Hai," Encyclopedia Judaica CD ROM Edition, Judaica Multimedia (1997).

Hertz, Rabbi Joseph Herman, The Authorized Daily Prayer Book (Bloch Publishing Company, 1965), 416-417.​

There is another tradition that he also composed the Eten Tehillah for the Yom Kippur service.

Shimon Halevi Horovitz, Machzor Vitri (Berlin: bi-defus shel Ts. H. Ittskavski, 1889), 362. See also Rabbi Samuel David Luzzatto's comments in Wout van Bekkum, "The Poetical Qualities of the Apostle Peter," Zutot 3 (2003): 22-23.​

​

 

[dybmh]

In his work Otzar HaMidrashim, Rebbeinu Tamm cites a lengthy d'rash about Peter which says he "was the leader of the poets, and... was granted great wisdom (chochmah)." The d'rash goes on to say the Peter composed great hymns for Israel.

Y.D. Eisenstein, Otzar HaMidrashim (New York, NY: Reznick, Menschel & CO, 1928), 557-561. English translation from Wout Van Bekkum, "The Rock on Which the Church is Founded," Saints and Role Models in Judaism and Christianity (Brill, 2004), 300.

Bekkum, 299.​

The tradition that Peter composed the Nishmat was so strong in the middle ages that Rashi himself was forced to refute it.

Shimon Halevi Horovitz, Machzor Vitri, (Berlin: bi-defus shel Ts. H. Ittskavski, 1889), 282. This is also discussed in Wout Van Bekkum, "The Rock on Which the Church is Founded," Saints and Role Models in Judaism and Christianity (Brill, 2004), 300 and "Nishmat Kol Hai," Encyclopedia Judaica CD ROM Edition, Judaica Multimedia (1997).

Hertz, Rabbi Joseph Herman, The Authorized Daily Prayer Book (Bloch Publishing Company, 1965), 416-417.​

There is another tradition that he also composed the Eten Tehillah for the Yom Kippur service.

Shimon Halevi Horovitz, Machzor Vitri (Berlin: bi-defus shel Ts. H. Ittskavski, 1889), 362. [I am grateful to Brian Hopkins who translated these passages for me from the original Hebrew.] See also Rabbi Samuel David Luzzatto's comments in Wout van Bekkum, "The Poetical Qualities of the Apostle Peter," Zutot 3 (2003): 22-23.​

​

So it's plausible? Or are you confident that The St. Peter in the Christian Gospels wrote Nishmat?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Here's what I'm reading right now:

Kotzk Blog: 102) DID ST. PETER COMPOSE THE 'NISHMAT' PRAYER?

It has footnotes, but I haven't gotten there yet. I'll put the conclusion in a spoiler:


edit to add: Look at footnote 7: See Otzar HaMidrashim, Eisenstein, p. 557 for more details.

Wow. Thanks for this. Seems very balanced.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Is there a text in the canon that says what a witch is?

The Witch of Endor was one example. Witch of Endor - Wikipedia

 

[Brickjectivity]

The Witch of Endor was one example. Witch of Endor - Wikipedia

What makes her a witch, specifically?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Do we agree it's based on a legend. Without the legend of Peter being sent by the Sanhedrin, doesn't the rest of the evidence become less important? It seems like that part of the story is the weakest. Plausible. But who knows. That's where I'm at right now.

I think it's a plausible theory, and it makes for a good story.

The legend of Peter and the Sanhedrin presupposes that he was not a believer in Jesus, or that if he was, he was more like an Ebionite, keeping the Torah and denying Jesus' divinity. This seems possible to me because I think the divinity issue is from later in history.

For this legend to be true, its origins would be the point prior to the split of Jewish believers from the rest of Judaism. IMO this split, though fissures probably appeared earlier, was not official (prescribed by the Sanhedrin?) until after the revolt against Rome with the institution of the Birkat haMinim in the late first century.

 

[Terry Sampson]

What makes her a witch, specifically?

She was a medium, one who channels or calls up the dead.

1 Samuel 28 New English Translation (NET Bible)
The Witch of Endor
28 In those days the Philistines gathered their troopsa]">[a] for war in order to fight Israel. Achish said to David, “You should fully understand that you and your men must go with me into the battle. 2 David replied to Achish, “That being the case, you will come to know what your servant can do!” Achish said to David, “Then I will make you my bodyguard from now on.”

3 Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had lamented over him and had buried him in Ramah, his hometown. In the meantime Saul had removed the mediums and magicians from the land. 4 The Philistines assembled; they came and camped at Shunem. Saul mustered all Israel and camped at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was absolutely terrified. 6 So Saul inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him—not by dreams nor by Urim nor by the prophets. 7 So Saul instructed his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so that I may go to her and inquire of her.” His servants replied to him, “There is a woman who is a medium in Endor.”

8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothing and left, accompanied by two of his men. They came to the woman at night and said, “Use your ritual pit to conjure up for me the one I tell you. 9 But the woman said to him, “Look, you are aware of what Saul has done; he has removed the mediums and magicians from the land! Why are you trapping me so you can put me to death?” 10 But Saul swore an oath to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not incur guilt in this matter!” 11 The woman replied, “Who is it that I should bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up for me Samuel.”

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly.The woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” 13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid! But what have you seen?” The woman replied to Saul, “I have seen a divine being coming up from the ground!” 14 He said to her, “What about his appearance?” She said, “An old man is coming up! He is wrapped in a robe!”

Then Saul realized it was Samuel, and he bowed his face toward the ground and kneeled down. 15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul replied, “I am terribly troubled! The Philistines are fighting against me and God has turned away from me. He does not answer me anymore—not by the prophets nor by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what I should do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why are you asking me, now that the Lord has turned away from you and has become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done exactly as I prophesied! The Lord has torn the kingdom from your hand and has given it to your neighbor David! 18 Since you did not obey the Lord and did not carry out his fierce anger against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this thing to you today. 19 The Lord will hand you and Israel over to the Philistines! Tomorrow both you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also hand the army of Israel over to the Philistines!”

20 Saul quickly fell full length on the ground and was very afraid because of Samuel’s words. He was completely drained of energy, having not eaten anything all that day and night. 21 When the woman came to Saul and saw how terrified he was, she said to him, “Your servant has done what you asked. I took my life into my own hands and did what you told me. 22 Now it’s your turn to listen to your servant! Let me set before you a bit of bread so that you can eat. When you regain your strength, you can go on your way.”

23 But he refused, saying, “I won’t eat!” Both his servants and the woman urged him to eat, so he gave in. He got up from the ground and sat down on the bed. 24 Now the woman had a well-fed calf at her home that she quickly slaughtered. Taking some flour, she kneaded it and baked bread without leaven. 25 She brought it to Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they arose and left that same night.

 

[Terry Sampson]

The legend of Peter and the Sanhedrin presupposes that he was not a believer in Jesus

Shimon, the disciple of Jesus, was a fisherman. Does it seem likely that he would have been a member of the Sanhedrin?
I

 

[Wandering Monk]

Shimon, the disciple of Jesus, was a fisherman. Does it seem likely that he would have been a member of the Sanhedrin?
I

Didn't say he was. Does that preclude him from being an agent of the Sanhedrin?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Didn't say he was.

Duly noted.

Does that preclude him from being an agent of the Sanhedrin?

Because Judas Iscariot was, so far as I have been led to believe, an agent of the Sanhedrin, I suppose that it not absolutely impossible that Peter was also an agent. However, ... I'm not a fan of that unverifiable opinion and won't be subscribing it to it in this world.

 

[Harel13]

Shimon, the disciple of Jesus, was a fisherman. Does it seem likely that he would have been a member of the Sanhedrin?
I

Even rabbis have to make money somehow. The Talmud brings a lot of examples of how various rabbis made money.

 

[Brickjectivity]

She was a medium, one who channels or calls up the dead.

Is that against the Torah? I don't remember. Why has Saul removed the mediums and the magicians? Who cares if someone speaks to the dead? It sounds nice to me. It would be very comforting, very informative, very positive to be able to contact my dead relatives. They were great people. I have a feeling that there is a misunderstanding here about what is actually against Torah. Somebody is not playing straight with me. I hope its not you, but as you say we Christians are generally ignorant about Torah. We are vulnerable to translation problems for instance. My question remains. What makes this woman a witch? Is it that she speaks to the dead? That doesn't seem particularly naughty to me.

...We Christians, on the other hand, are, by and large, clueless when it comes to the Talmud, Mishnah, Midrash, etc...

etc

 

[Harel13]

Is that against the Torah? I don't remember.

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, a soothsayer, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or one that consulteth a ghost or a familiar spirit, or a necromancer" (Deut. 18:10-11)